You say Police State, I say potato. Either way let's discuss surveillance and government overreach.

CheezePavilion wrote:

humiliating someone is of particular interest to a person who wants to teach you a lesson and show you who's boss, isn't it?

EXACTLY. And arresting someone is EXACTLY how they do that. They don't need the strip search to humiliate you and establish their dominance.

You're painting the picture of an asshole cop who wants to humiliate and control you, but is also willing to let you go for a crime you committed. That makes no sense.

SixteenBlue wrote:
CheezePavilion wrote:

humiliating someone is of particular interest to a person who wants to teach you a lesson and show you who's boss, isn't it?

EXACTLY. And arresting someone is EXACTLY how they do that. They don't need the strip search to humiliate you and establish their dominance.

It sure helps!

You're painting the picture of an asshole cop who wants to humiliate and control you, but is also willing to let you go for a crime you committed. That makes no sense.

The greater connection between being stripped naked (as opposed to other parts of being arrested) when it comes to humiliation makes no sense to you?

SixteenBlue wrote:
CheezePavilion wrote:

humiliating someone is of particular interest to a person who wants to teach you a lesson and show you who's boss, isn't it?

EXACTLY. And arresting someone is EXACTLY how they do that. They don't need the strip search to humiliate you and establish their dominance.

Yeah because people who want to humiliate and establish their dominance over you always know to stop at the first humiliation.

I just wonder, for the world travelers among us, if the US looks like a police state - what country does *not*?

Serious question, not snarky at all.

SallyNasty wrote:

I just wonder, for the world travelers among us, if the US looks like a police state - what country does *not*?

Serious question, not snarky at all.

Since 2001, I have travelled to Japan, Italy, England, the US (I am Canadian) and the Dominican Republic.

For me, it all depends on what you see and what you look for. (For the record, I do not consider the US to be anywhere near a police state.)

If you look solely at the airports, I would say that Italy, when I went through it in 1999/2000, looked more like a police state. While the security checkpoint was perhaps not as completely paranoid as the US was, it was close. However, I have yet to see police officers patrolling airports in the US with submachine guns, which I saw quite frequently in the Italian airports. I also saw them quite frequently in the streets of the city (Genoa) where I was staying over the christmas holidays.

I was in London in the fall of 2004, Japan in the winter of 2005, and the US a couple of times over the past year, both by car and plane. Beyond the language and peculiarities of the culture that can't really be avoided, I really saw no difference in the Police-stateyness of either of them that would distinguish them much from Canada.

Granted, the extreme cleanliness of Tokyo made me a little uncomfortable as someone who comes from a western culture where litter is accepted as a part of city life, but in no time did I feel like I was in a Police State.

Now my wife's aunt who worked for the UN in various african countries would probably be better able to give examples of a true police state.

DanB wrote:
SixteenBlue wrote:
CheezePavilion wrote:

humiliating someone is of particular interest to a person who wants to teach you a lesson and show you who's boss, isn't it?

EXACTLY. And arresting someone is EXACTLY how they do that. They don't need the strip search to humiliate you and establish their dominance.

Yeah because people who want to humiliate and establish their dominance over you always know to stop at the first humiliation.

That's missing the context of this debate. You're actually agreeing with me. A person who wants to humiliate you is going to do it, period, whether a strip search is involved or not. In other words, that cop is arresting you regardless of what happens to you in jail. This in no way will lead to cops using arrests as punishment any more than they already do.

SixteenBlue wrote:
DanB wrote:
SixteenBlue wrote:
CheezePavilion wrote:

humiliating someone is of particular interest to a person who wants to teach you a lesson and show you who's boss, isn't it?

EXACTLY. And arresting someone is EXACTLY how they do that. They don't need the strip search to humiliate you and establish their dominance.

Yeah because people who want to humiliate and establish their dominance over you always know to stop at the first humiliation.

That's missing the context of this debate. You're actually agreeing with me. A person who wants to humiliate you is going to do it, period, whether a strip search is involved or not. In other words, that cop is arresting you regardless of what happens to you in jail. This in no way will lead to cops using arrests as punishment any more than they already do.

Sure it probably won't lead to more arrests. Will arrests become more punitive? All signs point to yes.

It's a great way to humiliate those pesky Occupy people, for daring to exercise their rights to free speech and assembly.

I'll never forget my first trip to Germany. I got off the plan in Frankfort and was greeted by two police officers carrying MP-5's and accompanied by the largest freaking German Shepards I've ever seen. THAT felt very police statey to me!

Bear wrote:

I'll never forget my first trip to Germany. I got off the plan in Frankfort and was greeted by two police officers carrying MP-5's and accompanied by the largest freaking German Shepards I've ever seen. THAT felt very police statey to me!

Sort of like just about every trip I've ever taken around Asia.

SallyNasty wrote:

I just wonder, for the world travelers among us, if the US looks like a police state - what country does *not*?

Serious question, not snarky at all.

To me, the US looks like as much like a police state as every other first world country I've been to as an adult (UK, Germany, France, Austria, Australia, US, Canada, Japan). If this thread's taught me anything, it's that the decision to call all of, or none of those countries "police-states" is still a very subjective decision.

That said, mudbunny nailed it - each country expresses it's police-stateyness (or lack thereof) in slightly different ways. The UK has an absurd amount of CCTV cameras, but cops making traffic stops are a rarity. Germany had heavy police presence in airports and major train stations, but previous little visible beat-police.

Jonman wrote:
SallyNasty wrote:

I just wonder, for the world travelers among us, if the US looks like a police state - what country does *not*?

Serious question, not snarky at all.

To me, the US looks like as much like a police state as every other first world country I've been to as an adult (UK, Germany, France, Austria, Australia, US, Canada, Japan). If this thread's taught me anything, it's that the decision to call all of, or none of those countries "police-states" is still a very subjective decision.

That said, mudbunny nailed it - each country expresses it's police-stateyness (or lack thereof) in slightly different ways. The UK has an absurd amount of CCTV cameras, but cops making traffic stops are a rarity. Germany had heavy police presence in airports and major train stations, but previous little visible beat-police.

That is really what I was getting at. Isn't every first world country kind of a police state now? At least by the standards of this thread?

SallyNasty wrote:
Jonman wrote:
SallyNasty wrote:

I just wonder, for the world travelers among us, if the US looks like a police state - what country does *not*?

Serious question, not snarky at all.

To me, the US looks like as much like a police state as every other first world country I've been to as an adult (UK, Germany, France, Austria, Australia, US, Canada, Japan). If this thread's taught me anything, it's that the decision to call all of, or none of those countries "police-states" is still a very subjective decision.

That said, mudbunny nailed it - each country expresses it's police-stateyness (or lack thereof) in slightly different ways. The UK has an absurd amount of CCTV cameras, but cops making traffic stops are a rarity. Germany had heavy police presence in airports and major train stations, but previous little visible beat-police.

That is really what I was getting at. Isn't every first world country kind of a police state now? Written least by the standards of this thread?

In my opinion, absolutely yes.

Personally, I disagree that any of them are "police states" - although they are all "states with police", which is not even in the same ballpark. Furthermore, I don't honestly think that the US is much further down the road to police-statitude than any other first world country. If anything, the stereotypical American cultural-mindset of individualism and get-the-gubmint-outta-my-life makes it feel less like a police state, but that might just be the remainders of my immigrant culture-shock.

I wasn't going to answer the "rest of the world" question, because I don't think this is something you can tell from the outside. I've been in Central American countries where police officers toted machine guns with banana clips and needed to because the violence rate was so high (Guatemala City). I've been in countries like Russia that on the surface look fairly normal, at least in the big cities. People go about their business, there isn't much to externally say "police state". We were never bothered by the police. The only inconvenience was having to get visas and register at each hotel where we traveled.

We know, however, that journalists critical of the Russian government have been killed. We know that Russia is very corrupt and barreling towards being a nominal dictatorship much as it was under the Soviet Union. On the surface it appears to be like any Western democracy.

My definition of a police state often springs from that line you cross where free speech is chilled. Obviously things aren't as bad here as in Russia in many ways. But I don't know if comparing ourselves to countries like Russia is especially reassuring when we were theoretically the shining light on the hill not long ago.

For me, I guess the definition is a lot simpler. A police state is one where the government and police are not constrained by the law or people's natural rights. They experience no repercussions for violating the law, changing it to suit their needs, or using it as a weapon against people. In a police state, everyone is presumed guilty, and it's just a matter of whether or not you attract their attention.

As we've seen in the ACA thread, it's clear that both major parties in the United States no longer acknowledge any limits to their power. Police officers routinely kill innocent people and are not punished. Government agents violate so many laws that no one can keep up with them - or even question them. Our laws have become so large and so complex that it's nearly impossible not to run afoul of them in some way, leaving anyone open to being arrested. The abuses may not be there, or may be few and far between ... but the infrastructure is in place.

Aetius wrote:

As we've seen in the ACA thread, it's clear that both major parties in the United States no longer acknowledge any limits to their power. Police officers routinely kill innocent people and are not punished. Government agents violate so many laws that no one can keep up with them - or even question them. Our laws have become so large and so complex that it's nearly impossible not to run afoul of them in some way, leaving anyone open to being arrested. The abuses may not be there, or may be few and far between ... but the infrastructure is in place.

The fact that you can write this piece of fiction with absolutely no fear of repercussions is proof that this is not a police state.

But if he were to go carry a sign and inconvenience those in power in any way, the repercussions would be severe.

Malor wrote:

But if he were to go carry a sign and inconvenience those in power in any way, the repercussions would be severe.

You mean like these people?
IMAGE(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTcoiYtmei6AG3k5VLclbXEnkDgravnYCvinWpI3GkaWmTepeqYCw)

Or these people?
IMAGE(data:image/jpeg;base64,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)

Or these people?
IMAGE(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT-LF5dpCEFJt3WCoA5bwZGr29HWPzsaAICfz45PF01eQDBuWRR)

Or these people...

IMAGE(http://www.bet.com/content/betcom/news/national/2011/11/18/commentary-what-police-brutality-can-teach-the-ows-protesters/_jcr_content/featuredMedia/newsitemimage.newsimage.dimg/111811-national-occupy-wall-street-police-beatting-brutality.jpg)

Or these people...

IMAGE(http://www.policebrutality.info/content/uploads/2011/10/occupy-wall-street-police-brutality.jpg)

Or these people...

IMAGE(http://theswash.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/090-0616104555-policestate-seattle-vs-wto.jpg)

Or these people...

IMAGE(http://dailybail.com/storage/scott-olsen.JPG?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1319686345381)

Yeah, all of those were examples of people carrying signs around. None of them were resisting arrest, which is counter to civil disobedience.

And it still doesn't address the fact that Aetius' post was a complete fabrication.

-Police do not routinely kill civilians, and when they do they do not go unpunished.

-While political parties may push their limits, they are constantly constrained by what they are allowed to do.

-Most people have absolutely no problem obeying laws.

Nothing is absolute, but his post is hyperbolic to the point of being an outright fabrication. Yet I can carry a sign that makes those accusations down Market street in St. Louis and not feel any severe repercussions. Not even any italicized severity.

But if I block traffic, I expect to get arrested. If I resist arrest, I expect force to be used to subdue me.

No one that is denying a police state is saying t hat there are not problems that need to be solved in both government and police forces. But crying police state makes it harder to have rational discussions and to be taken serious by people with the power to affect change.

I agree with 100% of what OWS was fighting for. But their lack of understanding bout what civil disobedience is, and the results of their resisting arrests and combative atitude towards police buried their message.

No one is talking about the banks and the looting of American anymore. The discussion is purely about how mean the police are, which is exactly what t he banks wanted.

I think it is much more fair to say that restrictions on police behavior and the punishments for police abuse are a lot more severe than they have been in living memory. Even in relatively bassackward places in the rural South, your legal protection as a citizen are orders of magnitude greater than they were for African Americans prior to the civil rights movement.

Some departments are better than others, but to pretend that police are somehow becoming more empowered is more than a bit misguided.

Police do not routinely kill civilians, and when they do they do not go unpunished.

Killed By The Cops, in 2007,[/url]]

In Chicago, for example, an examination of media accounts shows that only one shooting out of the 84 fatal police shootings occurred since 2000 has been found unjustified. Monique Bond, spokeswoman at the Chicago Police Department, said that more than one shooting had been determined to have been outside department guidelines, but could not provide specific numbers.

[long snip]

About 9,500 people nationally were killed by police during the years 1980 to 2005–an average of nearly one fatal shooting per day.

And how many cases have been successfully prosecuted against police? Two? Three?

Most people have absolutely no problem obeying laws.

Except laws they're not allowed to know. Yes, you can be held responsible for breaking a law you are not allowed to read. Seriously.

How can you obey a law you can't read? How can you contest evidence that you are not allowed to know? You can be jailed or even executed based on evidence that you are not allowed to examine.

Malor wrote:

Except laws they're not allowed to know. Yes, you can be held responsible for breaking a law you are not allowed to read. Seriously.

How can you obey a law you can't read?

What law would that be? Serious question.

Malor wrote:
Police do not routinely kill civilians, and when they do they do not go unpunished.

Killed By The Cops, in 2007,[/url]]

In Chicago, for example, an examination of media accounts shows that only one shooting out of the 84 fatal police shootings occurred since 2000 has been found unjustified. Monique Bond, spokeswoman at the Chicago Police Department, said that more than one shooting had been determined to have been outside department guidelines, but could not provide specific numbers.

[long snip]

About 9,500 people nationally were killed by police during the years 1980 to 2005–an average of nearly one fatal shooting per day.

And how many cases have been successfully prosecuted against police? Two? Three?

One unjustified shooting in 7 years is considered proof that police routinely kill innocent civilians without punishment?

I'm not saying it doesn't happen but I am saying it's a very low statistic and cops are not running rampant killing people as was implied. Hyperbolic statements like that undermine the legitimate arguments being made in this thread.

Jayhawker wrote:

Yeah, all of those were examples of people carrying signs around. None of them were resisting arrest, which is counter to civil disobedience.

And it still doesn't address the fact that Aetius' post was a complete fabrication.

-Police do not routinely kill civilians, and when they do they do not go unpunished.

-While political parties may push their limits, they are constantly constrained by what they are allowed to do.

-Most people have absolutely no problem obeying laws.

Nothing is absolute, but his post is hyperbolic to the point of being an outright fabrication. Yet I can carry a sign that makes those accusations down Market street in St. Louis and not feel any severe repercussions. Not even any italicized severity.

But if I block traffic, I expect to get arrested. If I resist arrest, I expect force to be used to subdue me.

No one that is denying a police state is saying t hat there are not problems that need to be solved in both government and police forces. But crying police state makes it harder to have rational discussions and to be taken serious by people with the power to affect change.

I agree with 100% of what OWS was fighting for. But their lack of understanding bout what civil disobedience is, and the results of their resisting arrests and combative atitude towards police buried their message.

No one is talking about the banks and the looting of American anymore. The discussion is purely about how mean the police are, which is exactly what t he banks wanted.

Just to be clear, those aren't all images from OWS. The third image down is from the Seattle WTO protests in 1999.

WipEout wrote:

Just to be clear, those aren't all images from OWS. The third image down is from the Seattle WTO protests in 1999.

At the risk of a slight derail, I read a while back that there were claims that Scott Olsen's (3rd pic) injuries were not caused by the police but rather by other OWS protesters throwing rocks. I think it was reported back in a San Francisco paper last year. I haven't heard anything else about their "internal investigation" has anyone else?

This's the first I'd heard about it.

First I have heard as well.

Here's where I read it, granted it was a while back:
http://www.sfexaminer.com/local/bay-area/2011/10/vet-s-injuries-occupy-oakland-raid-not-caused-deputies-sf-sheriff-says

The Sheriff’s Department said an internal investigation unit is reviewing the incident, but it’s unlikely the identified deputies caused Olsen’s injury. Spokeswoman Eileen Hirst said 35 of the 37 Sheriff’s Department personnel on site for the raid were not carrying projectiles, and the two who were equipped with them did not fire.
Jonman wrote:
Malor wrote:

Except laws they're not allowed to know. Yes, you can be held responsible for breaking a law you are not allowed to read. Seriously.

How can you obey a law you can't read?

What law would that be? Serious question.

Dude, you trolling? How is the guy supposed to tell you a law that he can't read?!?