Biking: Catch-all

Most performance shoes these days seem to come with crappy inserts, based on the assumption that the buyer will get aftermarket inserts that best suit his feet. It's a (potentially considerable) added expense though.

complexmath wrote:

Most performance shoes these days seem to come with crappy inserts, based on the assumption that the buyer will get aftermarket inserts that best suit his feet. It's a (potentially considerable) added expense though.

I wear custom orthotics everywhere, so doesn't matter.

complexmath wrote:

Most performance shoes these days seem to come with crappy inserts, based on the assumption that the buyer will get aftermarket inserts that best suit his feet. It's a (potentially considerable) added expense though.

I also watch my daughter bang on the keyboard and double-post for me.

ianunderhill wrote:
MilkmanDanimal wrote:

I'm considering . . . clipless pedals of some sort that will theoretically go on a bike.

Gotcha. Overview time! Apologies if any of this is redunant in light of what you've read elsewhere.

There are two basic categories of clipless bike pedals, and they're named for their original design intentions, one being mountain, and the other road.

Most people who aren't doing road or criterium races and do things ranging from commuting to touring to cyclocross to mountain bike racing favor mountain pedals. The conventional wisdom here is, as mentioned above re:shoes, that the bolt pattern for mounting the compatible cleats favors fitting between lugs on the bottom of the shoe or being tucked into a recessed mounting hole that the sole of the shoe extends past. These cleat/shoe combinations allow for variable degrees of normal walking depending on the sole's flexibility. If you plan on regularly walking distances of more than a few feet in your bike shoes, these are usually the way to go.

Another key advantage to most mountain-style pedals is that many of them have the clip-in mechanism on both sides. This makes it much, much easier to get into them when you're new to them, tired, or distracted as you don't have to give them a tap with your toe to flip them around to get into the correct side.

The most common variety of mountain pedal is in Shimano's SPD family. I tend to reccomend these to recreational and commuter cyclists for two main reasons:

-Ubiquity. If you happen to wear out or break a cleat for some reason, most bike shops will have replacements on hand.
-Ajustability. There's a 3mm hex fitting for adjusting the spring tension of the clip-in mechanism. If getting out is not fast enough for you, or if you're popping out unpredictably, you can adjust this until it's just right for you. This is extra useful for someone new to clipless, as you can start out light and dial things in to require a more deliberate heel-twist as you get more comfortable.

Other people may talk about Crank Bros., Time ATAC, and Speedplay Frogs. These are all different. Crank Bros. are probably second most common after SPDs, but their spring adjustment is changed by having a particular cleat on a particular shoe; there's no fine tuning. People who like them seem to love them, particularly as they're very easy to clip into, and they shed heavy mud contamination more readily than many of the SPD offerings. Time ATACs and Speedplay Frogs are both much less common, but they've got big fans. The Speedplay offering is unique in that the clip-in mechanism is in the cleat rather than the pedal and that the entry mechanism works more along the lines of "step straight down" than "step forward and down". The cleats are also nearly twice the cost of the cleats of other systems. I like these, but it's important to keep the cleat fairly clean to ensure it works properly. I've only ridden Time a few times myself, and I liked the easy entry on them. But keep in mind that these are all less common. If your local bike shop doesn't carry particular cleats and you insist on a particular system, it's a good idea to have an extra set on hand just in case.

Beyond cleat/pedal interface, it's important to think about the pedal itself, particularly in light of your foot issues. The offerings mentioned above all tend to have variations in terms of how big the contact point between the shoe and the pedal is vs. the cleat and clip-in mechanism. There are pedals that are mostly just a clip-in mechanism on the end of a spindle, and then there are ones with support platforms surrounding the mechanism. Personally, the only time I've ever seen need for a platform around the mechanism was when I was riding very hard (town line sprints on group rides, hard intervals on the trainer, or racing), and in those cases, I was better off going for a road pedal. YMMV, but unless you experience excruciating hotspots when clipped-in and at cruising speed, it might not be a worry. Your best bet here would be to find a shop willing to get you up on a trainer and have you try out different pedals for several minutes at a time to see if you're having issues. It gets dicier heading into the busy season, but they'll be more likely to let you do this if they're going to get your sale. Don't necessarily mistake that as snobbery or greed - the bike biz is a lot more low margin/low profit for the brick-and-mortar shops than you might think. Although at the same time, don't give a jerk-ass shop your business repeatedly because you feel sorry for them.

Road pedals offer a much bigger contact platform and allow for more consistent power output (measurably different!; it's not just hype). The cleat is big, the pedal is big, and the shoes range from stiff to ridiculously stiff, and are not easy to walk in, even with special covers you can pop on to protect your cleats. If you're not doing hard club rides or racing, they're probably not going to be your thing, although I will mention that Speedplay's Zero pedal is often highly suitable for people with muscle problems or who have sustained serious injuries. There's a feature on many pedal/cleat systems called "float" which refers to how much lateral rotation the pedal is designed to allow your foot to do throught a pedal stroke. The Zero allows for up to 15 degrees of this but it can be dialed down to 0 degrees, and this is set by way of screws on the cleat (similar to the Frogs, the mechanism here is in the cleat rather than the pedal), and as such is easy to dial in just-so and indepently for each side.

I can tell you more about road pedals or about specific models of mountain pedals if you like. I realize I've just spewed a ton of information all over the place in one go and I don't want to overwhelm you. Let me know where you have questions and I'll fill in the blanks accordingly.

Much to process, but very much appreciate all the info. You rock.

Oh, and I should also mention that Speedplay's road pedals (Zero, Light Action, and the X series) are double-sided pedals, whereas the main offerings from companies like Look and Shimano are single-sided. Thus, they're a bit easier to get into consistently.

I like single-sided pedals for my own use. I'm taking a two-mile ride to the farm market or the elementary school often enough that I don't always want to be wearing bike shoes. (And not taking that ride often enough to have a cargo bike for that sort of thing.)

MilkmanDanimal wrote:

I'm considering . . . clipless pedals of some sort that will theoretically go on a bike.

Gotcha. Overview time! Apologies if any of this is redundant in light of what you've read elsewhere.

There are two basic categories of clipless bike pedals, and they're named for their original design intentions, one being mountain, and the other road.

Most people who aren't doing road or criterium races and do things ranging from commuting to touring to cyclocross to mountain bike racing favor mountain pedals. The conventional wisdom here is, as mentioned above re:shoes, that the bolt pattern for mounting the compatible cleats favors fitting between lugs on the bottom of the shoe or being tucked into a recessed mounting hole that the sole of the shoe extends past. These cleat/shoe combinations allow for variable degrees of normal walking depending on the sole's flexibility. If you plan on regularly walking distances of more than a few feet in your bike shoes, these are usually the way to go.

Another key advantage to most mountain-style pedals is that many of them have the clip-in mechanism on both sides. This makes it much, much easier to get into them when you're new to them, tired, or distracted as you don't have to give them a tap with your toe to flip them around to get into the correct side.

The most common variety of mountain pedal is in Shimano's SPD family. I tend to reccomend these to recreational and commuter cyclists for two main reasons:

-Ubiquity. If you happen to wear out or break a cleat for some reason, most bike shops will have replacements on hand.
-Adjustability. There's a 3mm hex fitting for adjusting the spring tension of the clip-in mechanism. If getting out is not fast enough for you, or if you're popping out unpredictably, you can adjust this until it's just right for you. This is extra useful for someone new to clipless, as you can start out light and dial things in to require a more deliberate heel-twist as you get more comfortable.

Other people may talk about Crank Bros., Time ATAC, and Speedplay Frogs. These are all different. Crank Bros. are probably second most common after SPDs, but their spring adjustment is changed by having a particular cleat on a particular shoe; there's no fine tuning. People who like them seem to love them, particularly as they're very easy to clip into, and they shed heavy mud contamination more readily than many of the SPD offerings. Time ATACs and Speedplay Frogs are both much less common, but they've got big fans. The Speedplay offering is unique in that the clip-in mechanism is in the cleat rather than the pedal and that the entry mechanism works more along the lines of "step straight down" than "step forward and down". The cleats are also nearly twice the cost of the cleats of other systems. I like these, but it's important to keep the cleat fairly clean to ensure it works properly. I've only ridden Time a few times myself, and I liked the easy entry on them. But keep in mind that these are all less common. If your local bike shop doesn't carry particular cleats and you insist on a particular system, it's a good idea to have an extra set on hand just in case.

Beyond cleat/pedal interface, it's important to think about the pedal itself, particularly in light of your foot issues. The offerings mentioned above all tend to have variations in terms of how big the contact point between the shoe and the pedal is vs. the cleat and clip-in mechanism. There are pedals that are mostly just a clip-in mechanism on the end of a spindle, and then there are ones with support platforms surrounding the mechanism. Personally, the only time I've ever seen need for a platform around the mechanism was when I was riding very hard (town line sprints on group rides, hard intervals on the trainer, or racing), and in those cases, I was better off going for a road pedal. YMMV, but unless you experience excruciating hotspots when clipped-in and at cruising speed, it might not be a worry. Your best bet here would be to find a shop willing to get you up on a trainer and have you try out different pedals for several minutes at a time to see if you're having issues. It gets dicier heading into the busy season, but they'll be more likely to let you do this if they're going to get your sale. Don't necessarily mistake that as snobbery or greed - the bike biz is a lot more low margin/low profit for the brick-and-mortar shops than you might think. Although at the same time, don't give a jerk-ass shop your business repeatedly because you feel sorry for them.

Road pedals offer a much bigger contact platform and allow for more consistent power output (measurably different!; it's not just hype). The cleat is big, the pedal is big, and the shoes range from stiff to ridiculously stiff, and are not easy to walk in, even with special covers you can pop on to protect your cleats. If you're not doing hard club rides or racing, they're probably not going to be your thing, although I will mention that Speedplay's Zero pedal is often highly suitable for people with muscle problems or who have sustained serious injuries. There's a feature on many pedal/cleat systems called "float" which refers to how much lateral rotation the pedal is designed to allow your foot to do throught a pedal stroke. The Zero allows for up to 15 degrees of this but it can be dialed down to 0 degrees, and this is set by way of screws on the cleat (similar to the Frogs, the mechanism here is in the cleat rather than the pedal), and as such is easy to dial in just-so and indepently for each side.

I can tell you more about road pedals or about specific models of mountain pedals if you like. I realize I've just spewed a ton of information all over the place in one go and I don't want to overwhelm you. Let me know where you have questions and I'll fill in the blanks accordingly.

Hurray for unseasonably warm weather!!

I managed to get out twice this weekend and found out I'm in terrible shape.

Norfair wrote:

Hurray for unseasonably warm weather!!

I managed to get out twice this weekend and found out I'm in terrible shape.

Huzzah! Same here!

Three rides in the past four days, all at ~15mph. Not great, but with winds at roughly the same speed and very, very flabby legs I'll take it. Man, I forgot how addicting it is -- I was sitting at my desk today just dreaming about being outside cycling.

Yup, I got in a few rides during our little window. Looks like I should be able to get back out on Thursday though.

I have taken my bike to a local bike shop several years in a row for tune-ups. Each year it comes back and just doesn't seem to shift well. When I hammer on it (and sometimes just in general) it jumps and shifts. I adjust the derailers and can get it a little better but it continues to jump and shift. It is especially annoying on my mountain bike when going up a steep hill.

What should I expect from a tune-up? Should I be asking for something more (new cables)? One of the bikes has done it since I got it and is now 2 years old. Is it necessary for me to learn to do everything myself? I'm capable of maintaining bikes but I don't really like doing it (but I'm willing if I need to in order to get things working right).

Take it back. Clean shifting is the entire point of taking your bike in for a tune up. Now, there's only so much that can be done for lower tier components though. Part of what you're paying for with better components is tighter tolerances which give better shifting and eliminate loaded ghost shifting.

Two things come to mind:

1) "Lower tier components" should, if undamaged and not having been OEM parts on something cheap from Walmart, Target, etc., work fine in proper adjustment. We're well past the point where any of the big manufacturers put out garbage (except for the budget stuff reserved for the cheapest of the big box store bikes, and even some of that isn't as crap as some might lead you to believe). A competent shop should be able to either get your bike's drivetrain into proper adjustment or explain why something's not working and what you need in the way of replacement parts. A really good one will weigh your options against what you're willing to spend and suggest multiple solutions fitting your needs.

But yes - take it back! They handed a bike back to you and it's not in working order and they offered no explanation. You don't have to be a dick about it, just be blunt - "I picked this bike up from service on day X. It's still not shifting properly. Can you take a look and tell me what's wrong?" If they can't replicate the problem in the work stand, they should take it out for a test ride or set it up on a stationary trainer (my preferred method - much easier to observe what's happening) to test it under load.

2) Here's a factor that's important to consider relative to shifting that hasn't got a damn thing to do with derailleur adjustment: drivetrain wear. Tiny abrasive materials -initially dirt and other debris from the road, then bits of metal from the chain itself- combined with the forward pull of your chainrings along the "top" length of the chain (where it's most tense under load) causes the holes in the chain's plates to ovalize. After a certain point of wear, the chain no longer exactly matches the sprockets on your cassette or freewheel, and wear starts to develop there. With further wear, it's possible to wear the teeth on your chainrings as well. After a certain point, the drivetrain can skip under load.

How long does it take? It depends. As we've added more gears to the backs of bikes, the chains have gotten narrower, and as such they wear faster. There are numerous anecdotes and too many variables on chainwear. It's safe to say, though, that the dirtier and less lubed a chain is, the faster it'll wear. Same goes for extensive cross chaining. It's a good idea to check your chain at about the 1500 mile mark and then every few hundred from there on. You can do this at home with a 12" ruler: line the zero mark up to the center of a pin on your chain, and the 12" mark should fall eyeball-dead-center on the pin above it. If it's 1/16" off, you should replace your chain. If it's 1/8" or more off, you're likely going to have to replace your chain and cassette. Rohloff makes a tool that can measure cassette wear, but it's clumsy and expensive for what it is. You can usually eyeball wear to you chainrings (they'll look like hooked waves from a child's drawing; some may even be busted off). Note that a shop should be checking for this when they check your bike in for service and do an assessment, as they a) have to be able to let you know as much as possible in advance what on your bike needs attention, b) need to be able to schedule their service queue as accurately as possible for on-time service (particularly as there can be the odd exception that eats more clock time), and c) want to make money by selling you replacement parts and keep you coming back because you trust them. If they aren't checking this, you really ought to find another shop.

But rest assured a replacement chain isn't a waste of money if you need it. Catastrophic failure is, as always, the worst metric for everything. Yes, that's right: preventative chain replacement works if you pay attention to your drivetrain; ignore the person who says you should just wait until everything's toast and replace it in one go, because that's both expensive and things will go from not good to very bad quickly, which makes for unpleasant riding. You can hold off on new cassettes for a good long time by replacing the chain, as well as making sure you're actually shifting regularly for the conditions. I've seen some of my customers always ride in one gear and that particular sprocket bites it early while the others are all fine. However, note that replacing a chain and using a new one with a casette that is already worn will result in all kinds of erratic stuff. Most noticeable is the drivetrain skipping (or as I prefer to say, slipping) forward when you go to accelerate from a dead stop. There can be some wonkiness to lateral shifts as well, but that frightening clunk and the change in resistance on the pedals, particularly when you're getting up at a stoplight amidst traffic, is going to be the more noticeable thing.

So yeah! Hopefully there's some useful info for you there. Good luck with your shop, and remember, if they're being a bunch of amateurs about it, you shouldn't keep giving them your business. There are good bike shops and then there are great bike shops, but there are also some crappy ones that have inexplicably been around for ages and never shut because they're a fixture, no matter how disatisified their clientele may be.

EvilHomer3k wrote:

I have taken my bike to a local bike shop several years in a row for tune-ups. Each year it comes back and just doesn't seem to shift well. When I hammer on it (and sometimes just in general) it jumps and shifts. I adjust the derailers and can get it a little better but it continues to jump and shift. It is especially annoying on my mountain bike when going up a steep hill.

What should I expect from a tune-up? Should I be asking for something more (new cables)? One of the bikes has done it since I got it and is now 2 years old. Is it necessary for me to learn to do everything myself? I'm capable of maintaining bikes but I don't really like doing it (but I'm willing if I need to in order to get things working right).

You taking it to Hall or Northtown? Before I started doing my own, I always took mine to Northtown and they were decent, but not great. I've heard stories of Hall doing pretty crappy tuneups though.

If you have the time, I'd take the bike down to Geoff's in IC. They do really good work. Bit of a drive though.

Isn't that the point of the mountain bike?

Ian, which shop do you work in? We should also get a Chicago GWJ ride together in this awesome weather soon. I need someone to ride along Des Plaines River with me after a big rain; I'm on a Steamroller with CX tires that's a blast in the mud/dirt, but my friends with MTBs don't like getting their bikes dirty (really?!), so I have a hard time convincing them to join me.

Or, road riding if that's your thing. I could use a cycling buddy, tbh.

You'd think.

I should rephrase-- they don't like getting their bikes muddy. Dusty is fine, "muddy means messed up cables, chains, bearings, etc" according to my friends/coworkers. I don't think I'll ever convince them to ride cyclocross.

WipEout wrote:

You'd think.

I should rephrase-- they don't like getting their bikes muddy. Dusty is fine, "muddy means messed up cables, chains, bearings, etc" according to my friends/coworkers. I don't think I'll ever convince them to ride cyclocross.

Yeah, mud can be like a grinding slurry and be hell on your drivetrain. Plus riding in mud is usually really bad for trails.

That's why you clean your bike afterwards, IMO I mean, I know it causes more wear/tear on the components, but for me at least, that's sort of par for the MTB course. Especially if it's an occasional thing-- I'm not talking slogging through the mud daily-- just one or maybe two weekends after the spring/summer rains.

I never really have that problem myself because the mountain bike trails are too far away from me and they usually close them when it's too wet to minimize erosion.

Also, this:

A lot of it is dependent on your region too. Here the soil is basically decomposed granite and clay. You ride through muddy clay and you're creating permanent ruts.

That's very true-- and while I haven't had a lot of off-road experience here in Chicago, what little riding I've done off the beaten path hasn't been on clay at all, that I've noticed.

The weather is bonkers here right now. We have 25 degree days, and are wearing shorts. Usually we'd still be x-country skiing.

Was out on my road bike 2x already, in shorts and a jersey!

WipEout wrote:

Ian, which shop do you work in? We should also get a Chicago GWJ ride together in this awesome weather soon. I need someone to ride along Des Plaines River with me after a big rain; I'm on a Steamroller with CX tires that's a blast in the mud/dirt, but my friends with MTBs don't like getting their bikes dirty (really?!), so I have a hard time convincing them to join me.

Or, road riding if that's your thing. I could use a cycling buddy, tbh.

I'm the head mechanic at Element Multisport, which is at the far end of the Costco lot at Damen/Diversey/Clybourn, tucked in between Golfsmith and a Subway (which we unfortunately share air vents with - if you skip breakfast, you're eating Subway for lunch). In person, I respond to Nick (Ian being my middle name) and am not the ridiculously tall lanky guy who's in more on the weekends. We're a triathlon-oriented shop but we carry a lot of road and limited cross, hybrid, and mountain stuff. Aside from shock work (my bench just ain't big enough for that many parts!), we're full service, and to boot, we're friendly. Last Thursday marked our fourth year of business, while April 25th will be one year at Element for me (I previously worked at Kozy's over on Erie and Wells for a couple years). Stop on by sometime!

As for a GWJ Chicago ride group: that'd be awesome. I'm pretty much strictly road (no mountain bike and no car to get hypothetical mountain bike out to Palos) but I love me some long rides. I tried criterium racing last year and while I wasn't bad at it, it's pretty tough to get enough rest and time for training in while staring down busy season at the shop. As a result, my racing buddies ride just a bit too hard for my fitness level, but most of my other bike friends are more of the anti-spandex let's-not-go-fast-at-all stripe. I need something in between!

I'm also in the process of figuring out *something* to replace my poor old 1974 Schwinn LeTour that's served as my beater for too many winters. I'm not sure what yet - you'd think working in a shop would make it easy, but what it comes down to is that when you get back on season hours and are actually making money again, a lot of good stuff you'd have employee purchased two months ago if you'd had the money is unavailable, and so you wind up piecing something together from one of your wholesale distributors instead of getting the double-dip goodness of OEM parts pricing and EP option that a whole bike from one of your partnered brands offers. So I don't know what it'll be exactly, but it'll probably take fatter 700s, and so it might be suitable for that Des Plaines River action you mentioned above.

Serengeti wrote:
EvilHomer3k wrote:

I have taken my bike to a local bike shop several years in a row for tune-ups. Each year it comes back and just doesn't seem to shift well. When I hammer on it (and sometimes just in general) it jumps and shifts. I adjust the derailers and can get it a little better but it continues to jump and shift. It is especially annoying on my mountain bike when going up a steep hill.

What should I expect from a tune-up? Should I be asking for something more (new cables)? One of the bikes has done it since I got it and is now 2 years old. Is it necessary for me to learn to do everything myself? I'm capable of maintaining bikes but I don't really like doing it (but I'm willing if I need to in order to get things working right).

You taking it to Hall or Northtown? Before I started doing my own, I always took mine to Northtown and they were decent, but not great. I've heard stories of Hall doing pretty crappy tuneups though.

If you have the time, I'd take the bike down to Geoff's in IC. They do really good work. Bit of a drive though.

Northtown. I've never gone to Hall. I like the guys at Northtown but just haven't been happy with the tune-ups. I may try hall as one of the guys there works with my wife (though not closely). If I have no luck there I may try Geoff's or do it myself.

First day of commuting by bike half over! Perfect weather for it, too. A cross wind that occasionally became a tailwind helped me stay over 16 mph for my average. So nice to not be falling asleep at my desk already.

Anybody ever get a literal pain in the butt from biking that doesn't go away for months? It's difficult for me to sit on a hard surface these days.

I'm also going to repost these videos form earlier in the thread. Derailleur adjustments need to be made every now and then as cables stretch and components wear and once you know the proper technique for doing so, it's not even that difficult really. These vids do an excellent job of explaining the process.

Front:

Rear:

Alien13z wrote:

Anybody ever get a literal pain in the butt from biking that doesn't go away for months? It's difficult for me to sit on a hard surface these days.

Do you mean you ride once and your butt hurts for months? Or you ride regularly and the pain doesn't go away? Also, where on the butt? Silly question, I know, but is the pain more around the gooch/anus area, or does it feel like the bony points under the padding of your butt cheeks are what hurt after a ride?

If it's the former, and the pain is between the anus and genitals (the "gooch"), then your bike is probably stretching you out too much and you're leaning too far forward-- saddle and stem adjustment would be necessary, you should get a fitting done to make the proper adjustments.

If it's the latter, and your "sit bones" are what hurt after a ride, chances are you don't have enough padding between your butt and the bike-- a cushier saddle might help, but you'll lose a lot of energy that could better go to the pedals. Otherwise, a solid saddle is better for performance, with a nice chamois/bike shorts to cushion your butt while you ride. This problem basically comes down to the fact that our butts are supposed to be natural padding, so we aren't used to sitting directly on the "sit bones" of the pelvis-- but that's where saddles are designed to place you on a bike. It's going to hurt for a little while either way-- really, only regular riding will get you completely over that pain-- but cushier saddles, and (for performance-minded riders) a quality pair of shorts & chamois will alleviate that pain.