Windows 8

Not often but occasionally we do. And I definitely will be a lot more soon when we move all our servers to a new data centre.

Parallax Abstraction wrote:

I really, really hope the feedback on this preview is so negative that Microsoft decides to delay Windows 8 for a massive retooling.

Have microsoft ever done this?

That makes me wonder where MS get the people for their focus testing, and how they conduct their "eat your own dog food" testing. If they're going to give all their employees lovely tablets and touchscreens, then of course it's going to work for them.

Parallax Abstraction wrote:

Not often but occasionally we do. And I definitely will be a lot more soon when we move all our servers to a new data centre. :)

Completely off-topic, but have you used a good remote KVM? I tested a Belkin model years ago and the performance was abysmal.

LiquidMantis wrote:
Parallax Abstraction wrote:

Not often but occasionally we do. And I definitely will be a lot more soon when we move all our servers to a new data centre. :)

Completely off-topic, but have you used a good remote KVM? I tested a Belkin model years ago and the performance was abysmal.

Nope, we just use remote desktop and our servers have HP Integrated Lights Out which allows us to do low-level functions like hard resets and such remotely as well.

Scratched wrote:
Parallax Abstraction wrote:

I really, really hope the feedback on this preview is so negative that Microsoft decides to delay Windows 8 for a massive retooling.

Have microsoft ever done this?

That makes me wonder where MS get the people for their focus testing, and how they conduct their "eat your own dog food" testing. If they're going to give all their employees lovely tablets and touchscreens, then of course it's going to work for them.

Microsoft is famous for getting almost Valve and Blizzard like with product delays in the past. Despite being a mes at launch, Vista was something like 5 years late. Vista hurt Microsoft's revenues for several years and gave a lot of credence to Apple who they are trying very hard to mount a fight against right now. Another OS that gets a similar reception could seriously challenge their dominance in the desktop space (one place where Apple is still in the extreme minority) and basically make yet another one of their tablet pushes stillborn and that would be a body blow to them. If someone can't give Apple serious competition in the tablet space soon, it's going to become a 100% iPad market in perpetuity and that's not good for anyone. I think a delay to not remove Metro but to retool Windows 8 so it's not forced on people so heavily would help them a lot more. Not saying they'll do it but I believe if a large number of people give overly negative feedback along the lines of "I won't buy this and neither will the company I manage IT for.", they will listen.

This sounds like fun: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/03...

Workers can't escape Windows 8 Metro - Microsoft COO

Windows 8 will help people work harder, faster and better, argues Microsoft Chief Operating Officer Kevin Turner, because the "immersive" Metro user interface removes all their distractions.

Highlighting business-centric features in the new OS, Turner insists Windows 8's fondness for fondleslabs will boost office productivity. The controversial handheld gadget-friendly Metro UI (described by our Andrew Orlowski as "a huge negative") will be an asset for businesses, Turner reckons, because full-screen apps will immerse workers in their spreadsheets, pushing distractions out of sight and ramping up output.

That seems to me to be a problem outside of the scope of an operating system.

Ha! I know some folks in Administration are going to love only being able to see one spreadsheet at a time instead of the five or so they normally have spread across two monitors.

Yikes... Marketing is really running the show over at the Windows team... well.. at least if the whole thing blows up.. the Marketing guys are always the first to get fired.

Edit..

That link has the original story link which is pretty much my exact feelings.. I think the Metro UI makes perfect sense for a Tablet.. and I'm excited to really give it a true spin once the actual Tablets launch.. but on a mouse driven "desktop" computer it seems bizzare that this interface is forced on end users.. How is it that Microsoft has gone this far without figuring out its always best to give end users a "choice"

Scratched wrote:

This sounds like fun: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/03...

Workers can't escape Windows 8 Metro - Microsoft COO

Windows 8 will help people work harder, faster and better, argues Microsoft Chief Operating Officer Kevin Turner, because the "immersive" Metro user interface removes all their distractions.

Highlighting business-centric features in the new OS, Turner insists Windows 8's fondness for fondleslabs will boost office productivity. The controversial handheld gadget-friendly Metro UI (described by our Andrew Orlowski as "a huge negative") will be an asset for businesses, Turner reckons, because full-screen apps will immerse workers in their spreadsheets, pushing distractions out of sight and ramping up output.

That seems to me to be a problem outside of the scope of an operating system.

Who wants to work harder?

bighoppa wrote:

Ha! I know some folks in Administration are going to love only being able to see one spreadsheet at a time instead of the five or so they normally have spread across two monitors.

I don't get this. They can still do this in the desktop mode. In fact, desktop multimonitor support looked better than Win 7 in the demos I've seen. It even had taskbars across both screens now, something long overdue.

I've still not gotten it up on my old PC, so maybe I've missed something in the final implementation.

Another thing that is annoying is that Windows 8 will start killing apps if it doesn't think you've been using it enough. So, if I open up an app and then want to go work on something else but keep my prior app open, it will close automatically.

It stinks!

bighoppa wrote:

Ha! I know some folks in Administration are going to love only being able to see one spreadsheet at a time instead of the five or so they normally have spread across two monitors.

My office, I have three monitors one of which is vertical and I wouldn't be able to do my job on Windows 8.

Sparhawk wrote:

Was thinking along the same lines here. Windows Weekly became quite crappy information and reality wise...but Leo has a way of keeping Paul in line concerning Windows and the truth. But, if someone already did the dirty deed...please share your wisdom here :)

I've still got it in my rotation, but it's been really close to getting axed mostly because it devolves into fanboy territory too much and after Windows 7 launched they really haven't had much to talk about which isn't framed with 30 minutes of discussing Apple at the start of the show. But I haven't listened to it yet, but should be later today or tomorrow if anyone wants a summary.

I'm not looking to upgrade to Win8 anytime soon as I'm locking myself to an "every-other" upgrade cycle (XP->7->9?) and frankly I think this is turning out to be a massive step backward (maybe worse than Vista) based on what they were talking about at least a month ago. I'm a bit behind on my tech news so I haven't read any impressions about the consumer preview aside from the brief blog entry on Tech Report, but just skimming the last two pages of this thread it doesn't sound all that well received unlike 7.

EDIT: I think someone was asking about product editions? I think Ars or Tech Report found some data pointing toward 2 or 3 editions this time around. Forget where I saw it though. Ok, found it.

What are they talking about? Will Steam be blocked? No? Then what are they talking about?

I'm not looking to upgrade to Win8 anytime soon as I'm locking myself to an "every-other" upgrade cycle (XP->7->9?) and frankly I think this is turning out to be a massive step backward (maybe worse than Vista) based on what they were talking about at least a month ago. I'm a bit behind on my tech news so I haven't read any impressions about the consumer preview aside from the brief blog entry on Tech Report, but just skimming the last two pages of this thread it doesn't sound all that well received unlike 7.

The good tech guys have looked underneath and its not a step backwards in any way other than this Metro UI.. if they simply delivered Windows 8 with both Metro for Tablet and a Windows 7 "like" GUI it would be a worthwhile upgrade.

I'm not 100% sold on the whole Windows Live ID integration..BUT you can simply turn that off so I'm ok with that.

Its certainly not a step backwards in any shape.. its a refinement of Windows 7 with a really bad idea to bolt on a tablet UI (which may actually be awesome) to a desktop experience that cannot effectively use a tablet/touchscreen driving UI.

TheGameguru wrote:

The good tech guys have looked underneath and its not a step backwards in any way other than this Metro UI.. if they simply delivered Windows 8 with both Metro for Tablet and a Windows 7 "like" GUI it would be a worthwhile upgrade.

Its certainly not a step backwards in any shape.. its a refinement of Windows 7 with a really bad idea to bolt on a tablet UI (which may actually be awesome) to a desktop experience that cannot effectively use a tablet/touchscreen driving UI.

Sorry, I should've specified. I think Metro is probably a good idea in practice. However, I really think they way they're handling it is the wrong approach to take. From what I read a couple months ago there's definitely a lot of improvements under the hood. But I think until they find a way to make the two vastly different UIs play well together I think it's going to be a bit of a mess.

But I think until they find a way to make the two vastly different UIs play well together I think it's going to be a bit of a mess.

Yep... totally agree.. I think there is a good reason companies vastly smarter than Microsoft in this space have avoided this.

TheGameguru wrote:

I think there is a good reason companies vastly smarter than Microsoft in this space have avoided this.

Well everyone is expecting Apple to merge OSX and iOS at some point. I half expect a post-mortem to come out suggesting upper management decided to take the bait and beat them to the punch for some reason. As a developer I can see there being some benefits to a unified OS, but I think you have to make so many exceptions and special cases to cater toward each interface that you're probably better off just keeping the operating systems separate.

I think they realize they've got to do something to get Win Phone off the ground. Leveraging your dominant desktop OS to 1) get people used to the UI, and 2) nurture the apps by forcing the new desktop OS to use them in the base UI, and 3) swap the kernel in the phone to the desktop kernel and thus allowing easy portability from the desktop to the phone.

Ulairi wrote:

Another thing that is annoying is that Windows 8 will start killing apps if it doesn't think you've been using it enough. So, if I open up an app and then want to go work on something else but keep my prior app open, it will close automatically.

It stinks!

This is unacceptable.

SixteenBlue wrote:
Ulairi wrote:

Another thing that is annoying is that Windows 8 will start killing apps if it doesn't think you've been using it enough. So, if I open up an app and then want to go work on something else but keep my prior app open, it will close automatically.

It stinks!

This is unacceptable.

I think this is limited to metro apps, and I don't think we'll see a "say bye bye to your 3 hours since last saved word document" situation. I'd like to think they're smart enough that any apps in question that do this will return in the same state they were left in.

Scratched wrote:
SixteenBlue wrote:
Ulairi wrote:

Another thing that is annoying is that Windows 8 will start killing apps if it doesn't think you've been using it enough. So, if I open up an app and then want to go work on something else but keep my prior app open, it will close automatically.

It stinks!

This is unacceptable.

I think this is limited to metro apps, and I don't think we'll see a "say bye bye to your 3 hours since last saved word document" situation. I'd like to think they're smart enough that any apps in question that do this will return in the same state they were left in.

If this only applies on a tablet, fine. Otherwise, it's not acceptable to close my applications on my desktop without my permission. That's just ridiculous. If returning to the same state works as well as Android (i.e. it's up to the developer to do so correctly) then that's not good enough either.

Not to be a fanboy ( I am, but actually don't have any Apple products. lol), but.... just to compare a little bit what MS is focusing on and what Apple has changed in their latest OS.
Mac OS X has all kind of features added: windowless option for apps, a new launcher, improved backing up and saving options etc etc. And here is a new Windows OS and it has .... tiles ... I just don't get what they did the rest of the time developing. What more do I really get with this new OS? Stability and tiles...well, I wish MS good luck here with their strategy.
I really hope they find a guy with a better long term vision.

Sparhawk wrote:

I really hope they find a guy with a better long term vision.

I think this is a problem with Microsoft as a whole right now.

shoptroll wrote:
Sparhawk wrote:

I really hope they find a guy with a better long term vision.

I think this is a problem with Microsoft as a whole right now.

Microsoft and hopping from trend to trend seems to be ingrained in their culture now. Partially, I can accept they need to be investigating the latest things, but too often they're Johnny come lately with a crap version of what some other company already has a good workable version of, and don't have the attention span (besides windows/office/dev tools) to make it stick. My best example has to be what they do with msn/passport/live/"microsoft account", it's a horrible mess where it applies to everything and nothing, and you can't pin down what it is. There's a growing graveyard of projects at MS that have been dead/abandoned, with the latest burial being Zune.

Be careful here.. Windows Mobile 7.5 is fantastic.. its just completely buried by the overwhelming success of iOS.. In a vacuum its stands up to the iPhone and I have a few friends that would never give it up..

But when faced with the Apple ecosystem its an uphill battle even though I much much prefer the Zune model. If Verizon ever gets a Nokia Windows Phone I'm switching.

TheGameguru wrote:

But when faced with the Apple ecosystem its an uphill battle even though I much much prefer the Zune model.

Which is part of what I suspect is going on with Win 8/Win Phone 8. Leverage one to help the other, both in terms of getting people used to the interface and building the ecosystem.

That's why it makes sense to make a tablet with it...not an OS for the PC. And for sure, I've played with the Zune and Windows phone. It is very well done. But those are mobile machines again. It makes more sense to integrate the services on all their machines, so it ties back to your home pc or htpc, and your mobile machines. That would be a huge plus.
And if they would build maybe software themed like the mobile OS, sure, awesome. But keep a pc os, a pc os. I can really see this backfiring. Really hope not though.

Sparhawk wrote:

That's why it makes sense to make a tablet with it...not an OS for the PC.

And who's buying Windows Tablets right now? The Windows tablet market in the same shape (or worse) than the Windows Phone market. Hence MS's strategy.

It might be wrong, but I can see what the logic is behind it.

Yeah, I think I would really like Metro on a tablet. It has some very clever bits to it, and I love the font work they've done with it. I think the Metro font family looks awesome.

But it's so horrible on a desktop. It's completely optimized around touchscreens, and I have a keyboard and mouse.

I remember being annoyed with Win7 at first, because it took away Quick Launch, which I used all the time. I was mad that there was no way to bring it back, because, man, I just lived in Quick Launch. (for those who don't remember: tiny buttons on the left of the Start bar, in XP, that let you start apps quickly.) But 7 offered a throughly better way of doing it, "pinning", where you can just attach an application permanently to your start bar. When the app isn't running, it looks almost like a Quick Launch button, maybe a scoche bigger, and then when the app launches, it fills out and becomes a normal entry in the taskbar. That is an AWESOME feature, and I might not have noticed it if I hadn't been dragged, kicking and screaming, into using it.

But I just don't see the design principles behind Metro as being, in any way whatsoever, an improvement for a desktop. It's notably slower in most respects; it makes me move the mouse more, it pops stuff up in weird places, all the corners suddenly MEAN something with the mouse, so you can't just flick the mouse pointer out of the way, you have to carefully park it. I have to dig a lot further to find what I want, and it's obvious that only Metro apps are truly first class citizens of Win8, but Metro apps are kind of brain damaged. The whole system is very inflexible and awkward. Regular windows just work better for keyboards and mice. That's what they were designed for -- in a way, mice and windows co-evolved. Taking away only one, but leaving the other, is a major impedance mismatch. It screws everyhing up.

As others are saying, it looks like they want to use their captive Windows audience to jumpstart their Metro numbers. And from everything I've seen so far, Microsoft is the only beneficiary of that deal.