Windows 8

Parallax Abstraction wrote:

I can't stand many elements of Mac OS but honestly, if my only choice became using this as Windows, Mac is better without question.

Thanks to Free software, those won't ever be your "only choices".

That is, so long as we keep hardware manufacturers from locking out non-Windows OSs with Secure Boot.

*Legion* wrote:

That is, so long as we keep hardware manufacturers from locking out non-Windows OSs with Secure Boot.

Hmmm, I wonder how that will work with OEMs, because isn't one of the provisions in the license that you can downgrade, and win8 will be the first version to support it so win7 and earlier are locked out?

And tying your local administration rights to the ability to sign into Microsoft's servers is bound to be a good idea.

I'd be okay with Win8 if it had two skins, one for tablets and one for desktops. I wouldn't even mind if they rejiggered the desktop around some -- I already switch around all the time between Windows and Mac and Linux, and hardly notice. I'm really and truly okay with change, it just has to actually be better than what I'm using now, for what I'm using it for, or else offer me something new that's so compelling that I'm willing to give up older stuff as obsolete. And I'm not seeing either thing with Metro.

Admittedly, I've only spent about an hour with it, but so far at least, it's demonstrably far poorer at managing my day to day life as a desktop user. And the thing I get in exchange? The ability to give money to Microsoft. It seems like most of the Start screen is various ways that Microsoft can monetize me.

That's a great deal, at least if you're Microsoft. For me? Not so much.

Only a monopoly could pull this kind of sh*t and survive.

Metro does look pretty great for a tablet. I could totally see it. But my desktop is not a tablet. What the f*ck, slide to unlock on a goddamn desktop?

*Legion* wrote:
Parallax Abstraction wrote:

I can't stand many elements of Mac OS but honestly, if my only choice became using this as Windows, Mac is better without question.

Thanks to Free software, those won't ever be your "only choices".

That is, so long as we keep hardware manufacturers from locking out non-Windows OSs with Secure Boot.

Linux can't and as far as I can tell, will never deliver the software library and diversity I require. That's not to say Linux is awful or that it can't be useful for many but at present, the way I use my PC and the software I require to do so cannot be done in Linux.

As for Microsoft being a monopoly, I think if they botch Windows 8, they will see that challenged very quickly. Apple is currently riding a fashion trend and is actively looking for ways to extend it, something they're very good at. There are fundamental problems with Mac OS that make it hard to deploy in large corporate environments but those can be fixed and if Microsoft keeps doing things to alienate corporate and indeed, devoted home users, I think many of them won't need to be pushed very hard to start switching to Apple. Frankly, I don't want that to happen because I think PCs and Windows are superior platforms for certain reasons. But if Microsoft wants to maintain dominance over Apple, they need to stop doing things that push their users towards them.

Office and Exchange are two very powerful Enterprise entities... Add to that Apple's almost indifference to Enterprise computing and it's a LONG and TOUGH battle with murky ROI. BUT I do agree.. Microsoft needs to sharpen up.. I've been working with our investments this last year bringing up Microsoft ERP systems for CRM, Finance, Manufacturing, Project Accounting, etc.. and frankly its a mess.. blatant holes in their integration.. as well as flat out dropping the ball in certain types of functionality.

Not to mention some of their core strengths just missing.. like for example.. where is the Group Policy Admin Template for the Outlook CRM Client?? How do they expect an Enterprise to manage this? run around to users desktops one at a time?? Hello 1995.

But the rapid rise of consumerism and cloud computing is providing a window into Enterprise in some facets for Apple.. but I don't see Apple providing the kind of control to enterprises to really go all in with Apple...

Yet.

I am getting used to the tiles the more I mess with it. As a windows power user, it does get int he way of the way I use PC's but for the general public I can see the appeal.

One thing that drives me nuts is that I have tot log into my windows account with EVERYTHING! Just let me log in once. Sheesh.

The picture password is pretty sweet though.

Parallax Abstraction wrote:

Linux can't and as far as I can tell, will never deliver the software library and diversity I require. That's not to say Linux is awful or that it can't be useful for many but at present, the way I use my PC and the software I require to do so cannot be done in Linux.

It's not an either-or choice. I do the majority of stuff in Linux. Sometimes I need something that requires Windows. With the ridiculous amount of processing power and memory I can shove into a desktop system for cheap, I can (and do) run Windows VMs like they're nothing.

A lot of people do it the other way around - they prefer to have Windows as their host OS but they may spend their day running a bunch of stuff in Linux on a VM.

Point is, if you're not liking how Windows is going, you don't have to be resigned to being a 100% Windows user just because you're reliant on some Windows-based software. You can use something else, without having to give up access to what you need. I have Windows 8 running fullscreen on my left monitor right now. If I didn't tell you which OS was native and which wasn't, you wouldn't be able to tell at a glance. Of course, I can't effectively play games in the VM environment, but certainly any business/productivity software I need is cake.

I mean, what else are you going to use a 6-core CPU and 16GB of RAM for?

Great point.. its almost trivial these days to get and running.. you can install a host Windows 8 pc for your games.. and then run a Linux VM with plenty of resources devoted to it and run it full screen and basically never touch the underlying host OS for anything.. until you want to play some games.

Whatever the functionality might be.. I'm fairly sure that for the most part Windows 8 should be as stable as 7.. and 7 has been remarkably stable for me.

TheGameguru wrote:

you can install a host Windows 8 pc for your games.. and then run a Linux VM with plenty of resources devoted to it and run it full screen and basically never touch the underlying host OS for anything.. until you want to play some games.

And frankly, if you're not a hardcore Linux dork like me, that's probably the better way of doing it.

Linux is lighter and so it's easier to give it the resources it needs if you aren't necessarily flush with CPU cores and RAM.

And it takes away the issue of hardware compatibility, as the hardware is virtualized and all completely well-supported.

That's basically the setup I have at work and it works nicely.

I think I only mentioned this on IRC, but Windows 8 now has Hyper-V built-in. The dual-edged sword of it is that it's a type-1 "bare metal" hypervisor, so if you enable it the host OS also runs through the hypervisor. So your VMs have better access to hardware, but your host OS has less so it also suffers a performance hit. In my case I'll continue to keep a dedicated Hyper-V server and not gimp my Tiny God workstation.

Yeah, 7 has that too, and the performance hit for the 'main' OS is very large. It renders the box largely incapable of gaming.

I'll stick with VMWare. ME3 and Linux, at the same time, even.

*Legion* wrote:

I mean, what else are you going to use a 6-core CPU and 16GB of RAM for?

...competition benchmarking?

If you decide that Metro isn’t for you and you prefer Windows 7 Desktop, here is an app to bring you the start button back.

http://www.ghacks.net/2012/03/02/vis...

Yeah, they're bundling crapware with that app. No thanks. (yes, you can opt out, but I don't use or recommend software that bundles crapware.)

Procedural terrain generation? >_>

It's possible that Windows 8 Enterprise has no Metro...would make sense.

TheGameguru wrote:

It's possible that Windows 8 Enterprise has no Metro...would make sense.

I wouldn't hold your breath the server version even has metro.

TheGameguru wrote:

It's possible that Windows 8 Enterprise has no Metro...would make sense.

This is what I'm wondering as well. As has been said before, large companies aren't going to be prepared to re-train their entire workforce how to use Metro, particularly in its current confusing state. I'm curious if the Professional versions of Windows 8 do permit you to use a classic UI. At the very least, they'll have to give the ability for administrators to disable the Live account integration and paid Metro apps on domain-joined systems. They can't be crazy enough to think that administrators will give all their users the option to tie their login to a Live account. Our company won't touch that with a pole of any length.

Parallax Abstraction wrote:
TheGameguru wrote:

It's possible that Windows 8 Enterprise has no Metro...would make sense.

This is what I'm wondering as well. As has been said before, large companies aren't going to be prepared to re-train their entire workforce how to use Metro...

I said that way up the thread I think, and people kept telling me that training wasn't an issue.

Taking this down another road, does MS expect OEMs for consumer oriented machines to start fitting touchscreens as standard, either for laptops (which rule the market, or so I've heard) or desktops?

Scratched wrote:

Taking this down another road, does MS expect OEMs for consumer oriented machines to start fitting touchscreens as standard, either for laptops (which rule the market, or so I've heard) or desktops?

I don't think as standard, but I think it will become pretty widespread within Win 8's lifecycle.

Hopefully that will me capacitive screens, not resistive stuff that's been used on MS tablets in the past.

The IR based touchscreens are pretty nice, with no overlay, and not much more than a regular monitor. I've got a 23" one for my flight sim dashboard. It's what the Kindle Touch uses too.

LiquidMantis wrote:

The IR based touchscreens are pretty nice, with no overlay, and not much more than a regular monitor. I've got a 23" one for my flight sim dashboard. It's what the Kindle Touch uses too.

Not sure how well that would work on thin laptop designs, though. Maybe for the larger desktops like you mention it will work.

How well does it handle multitouch?

Just fine for the little bit I've done in testing. My primary usage is just as a mouse replacement though.

I'm trying to install the consumer preview but my SSD doesn't have 20GB of space on it. Is there away I can reformat my drives and install Windows 8 fresh? I have it on a thumb drive but I don't know how to actually get it all going.

MannishBoy wrote:
Parallax Abstraction wrote:
TheGameguru wrote:

It's possible that Windows 8 Enterprise has no Metro...would make sense.

This is what I'm wondering as well. As has been said before, large companies aren't going to be prepared to re-train their entire workforce how to use Metro...

I said that way up the thread I think, and people kept telling me that training wasn't an issue.

I definitely wouldn't have been one of those people and if I was, I clearly hadn't had any coffee yet.

My employer only has about 150 people and most of them are engineers and relatively tech savvy. It would be a nightmare for us to retrain everyone on the Metro interface as I've seen it to this point and at the massive accounting firm I worked at for 3 months in 2010, it simply wouldn't happen. Just upgrading from XP to 7 involved a ton of expensive training and re-learning from scratch (which is essentially what Metro would be like) would simply result in them skipping Windows 8 entirely. Apple is a company that is almost entirely focused on the consumer market. It really feels like Microsoft is focusing Windows 8 on attacking them on that front. While that's an important market to go after, focusing almost entirely on it when the bulk of your money is made from enterprise seems kind of backwards to me.

Rather than attempt to muck around with the new preview in a VM which doesn't give a wholly representative experience, I'm going to take one of our out of service Core 2 Duo desktops on Monday and install it straight on that. That will give a much better "real world" interpretation of the experience and I'll make some more informed judgements on it then.

Parallax Abstraction wrote:

My employer only has about 150 people and most of them are engineers and relatively tech savvy. It would be a nightmare for us to retrain everyone on the Metro interface as I've seen it to this point and at the massive accounting firm I worked at for 3 months in 2010, it simply wouldn't happen. Just upgrading from XP to 7 involved a ton of expensive training and re-learning from scratch (which is essentially what Metro would be like) would simply result in them skipping Windows 8 entirely. Apple is a company that is almost entirely focused on the consumer market. It really feels like Microsoft is focusing Windows 8 on attacking them on that front. While that's an important market to go after, focusing almost entirely on it when the bulk of your money is made from enterprise seems kind of backwards to me.

My company has 30,000 people or so and a lot of them are not techical at all. We're still primarily XP just getting ready to move to Win 7. I can't imagine us going to Win 8. Training costs alone would be huge, right when we're trying to cut costs as much as possible due to the economy.

I'm excited for some of the stuff going on here. I think rethinking interfaces is important right now in the PC space. I just know how large companies see these things. I expect already knows that Win 8 will be skipped by companies, and I have a feeling Windows 9 will be the full deal where the figure the interface out for both K&M and touch.

Ulairi wrote:

I'm trying to install the consumer preview but my SSD doesn't have 20GB of space on it. Is there away I can reformat my drives and install Windows 8 fresh? I have it on a thumb drive but I don't know how to actually get it all going.

This works with the Win8 ISO as well as Win7.

Eezy_Bordone wrote:
Ulairi wrote:

I'm trying to install the consumer preview but my SSD doesn't have 20GB of space on it. Is there away I can reformat my drives and install Windows 8 fresh? I have it on a thumb drive but I don't know how to actually get it all going.

This works with the Win8 ISO as well as Win7.

IS it possible to reformat my SSD which doesn't have 20GB free and then install it? I was hoping to get to the part of the install that allows me to do that.

Right now, I have 15GB free on my SSD and I cannot get it to 20 (cap is like 60gb)