Broken Age Catch-All

I'm pretty sure a project's budget includes salaries-- you have to pay the artists and engineers to do the work, after all. Not working for a small developer like DF, though, I can't say for certain. It seems logical to me, though.

Malor wrote:

Before you have a return ON investment, you have to have return OF investment. If they spend $2 million to make it, only making $1 million in sales is a disaster.

Of course, in this case, they've got $2.25 million in 'sales', so as long as they don't spend more than that making the game, any actual additional sales are pure profit.

Yes, I did mean return OF investment-- the money coming in that covers the money spent on development. Once that "loan" has been paid off, any income after that is profit.

TheGameguru wrote:
Malor wrote:

Before you have a return ON investment, you have to have return OF investment. If they spend $2 million to make it, only making $1 million in sales is a disaster.

Of course, in this case, they've got $2.25 million in 'sales', so as long as they don't spend more than that making the game, any actual additional sales are pure profit.

That is kinda my point.. if they community at large starts believing this project to be "more than it is" then the perception of raising $2M to only sell 75,000 copies (understanding that they have already sold 66,000) will be IMO a disaster for DF from a gaming public perspective. I've seen how fickle the gaming public can be.

They sell 200,000 copies (again including the 66,000 they have sold already) then its all roses.. they will "make" $3M on a $2M "investment" not earth-shattering but certainly a good project. Again not fully understanding their capital position this is just a broad view of the economics of this deal.

This comes back to something I mentioned upthread, though-- returning the investment isn't the issue, and at this point, profitable sales are all but guaranteed; the main issue will be creating a game that the general public will accept, that Double Fine will be able to retain the trust of their fans/consumers, so they might be able to maintain this venture as a viable business plan in the future. What I'm really excited to see happen is how DF handles this whole deal and how they wil ldevelop games in the future.

But again, I think you're looking at it in the traditional investment sense-- that $2M invested from Kickstarter funds are also sales funds. Normally, a game would need to make back $3M on a $2M budget game, so as to gain $1M in profit, and be successful enough to warrant a similar business venture in the future. As is the case here, though, that $2M doesn't have to go back towards any loan or investment firm or publisher-- DF isn't technically indebted $2M to anyone-- they didn't take out a $2M loan that they need to pay back with game sales before they make any profits. So at this point, they don't have to worry about making back the $2M they are going to spend on this game, since that cash is going straight into the development itself and not funneled through investors at any point.

But, since consumer perception of a game's success might be based more on copies sold rather than cash made, I am curious to see how that aspect will pan out. Where financially the game is, if not successful then doing really f*cking well, I wonder what the consumers' perceptions will be of the game should it not sell hundreds of thousands of copies.

Who cares how it sells, if we get a good game? As long as something decent comes out of the process, we got what we paid for. Even if they only move 50 additional copies, it's no disaster, because it was all paid for. It's not an investment on our part. It is patronage. We don't share in the profits, no matter what, so we don't CARE if it's profitable, just if it's good.

Ideally, they'd make enough money to be able to keep a nice chunk for themselves, while also funding something else, but failing to do so doesn't really matter, from our perspective.

It's more like free software than commercial -- this is, I think, one major way that software will be made in the future. A bunch of people who are interested split the cost of producing the code, which is the really expensive part, and then give out copies nearly for free, because copies cost nothing to make. With current free software, the cost is split by people donating time, but it can also be done this way, by people donating money. Then DF releases it without DRM. Once it's created, it costs nothing more to copy, so there's no reason not to copy it freely.

Not sure DF will go *that* far, but that's the final endgame, I think... sponsored development, followed by free distribution, for a pretty good selection of software. This model matches the underlying economics and cost structures better than charging for copies.

WipEout wrote:

I'm pretty sure a project's budget includes salaries-- you have to pay the artists and engineers to do the work, after all. Not working for a small developer like DF, though, I can't say for certain. It seems logical to me, though.

They mentioned in one of the videos or texts that basically all of the money was for salaries. From what I understand, the genesis of the idea was that they had an as-of-yet-unannounced project get cancelled, and they were going to have to lay people off unless they figured out some way to keep them busy. Hence, the kickstarter idea, no one has to get laid off, etc. etc.

Minarchist wrote:

They mentioned in one of the videos or texts that basically all of the money was for salaries.

I would think this would be true of the vast majority of non-AAA game development. All you really need to make a game is computers and warm bodies, after all, and even powerful computers are small change compared to the salaries of full-time employees.

I'm glad this thread keeps coming to the top. I keep forgetting I mean to donate to this.

Demyx wrote:
Minarchist wrote:

They mentioned in one of the videos or texts that basically all of the money was for salaries.

I would think this would be true of the vast majority of non-AAA game development. All you really need to make a game is computers and warm bodies, after all, and even powerful computers are small change compared to the salaries of full-time employees.

I'm glad this thread keeps coming to the top. I keep forgetting I mean to donate to this.

Tim Schafer ‏ @TimOfLegend wrote:

Surprised that game budgets are so high? Well, listen--people are expensive! And LIVING people? Forget about it.

I can't remember where I read it (hopefully not here), but I think he mentioned the original budget of $300k was for 3 people working on the game for 6 months.

TheGameguru wrote:

Are they funding salary and expenses with the $2M or is this the budget for the game only?

Any budget is going to include salary and expenses, isn't it?

WipEout is correct - if your budget was gifted to you, the first sale is profit. This is a highly unusual situation, of course, and I have no idea what the tax implications are.

Malor wrote:

It's not an investment on our part. It is patronage. We don't share in the profits, no matter what, so we don't CARE if it's profitable, just if it's good.

What Malor said.

WipEout wrote:

But again, I think you're looking at it in the traditional investment sense-- that $2M invested from Kickstarter funds are also sales funds. Normally, a game would need to make back $3M on a $2M budget game, so as to gain $1M in profit, and be successful enough to warrant a similar business venture in the future. As is the case here, though, that $2M doesn't have to go back towards any loan or investment firm or publisher-- DF isn't technically indebted $2M to anyone-- they didn't take out a $2M loan that they need to pay back with game sales before they make any profits. So at this point, they don't have to worry about making back the $2M they are going to spend on this game, since that cash is going straight into the development itself and not funneled through investors at any point.

But, since consumer perception of a game's success might be based more on copies sold rather than cash made, I am curious to see how that aspect will pan out. Where financially the game is, if not successful then doing really f*cking well, I wonder what the consumers' perceptions will be of the game should it not sell hundreds of thousands of copies.

Agree with what you wrote. I was thinking about it earlier and was wondering how many sales post-launch (not including Kickstarter sales) would be needed in order to be considered a success. The sales pre-launch or an indicator of success, clearly. Things have gone well with Double Fine.

How many units would they need to sell (post-launch sales) in order to be considered successful?

Fedaykin98 wrote:

WipEout is correct - if your budget was gifted to you, the first sale is profit. This is a highly unusual situation, of course, and I have no idea what the tax implications are.

As I am simply unaware- why would there be specific tax implications for this project versus other methods of earning profit-- simply a question of how to account for $ earned off of pre-launch sales? At this point, and until the game is put up for sale outside of the Kickstarter, I don't believe any copies of the game are sold. We aren't buying the game, at we are simply giving money and being given product reciprocal to the tier-level we donate. I could well be wrong about that though, as I haven't really looked into it.

demonbox wrote:
TheGameguru wrote:

Are they funding salary and expenses with the $2M or is this the budget for the game only?

Any budget is going to include salary and expenses, isn't it?

Not necessarily. Depends on the company and how they allocate budget dollars.

My point is not so much in regards to profit....but rather perception of the product produced. My feeling knowing the gamer public is that things are skewed now simply on the amount donated.

Clearly most people should be aware that they are donating to a project they have guarantee of quality but somehow I'm not convinced it will be that easy if things go "wrong"

How many units would they need to sell (post-launch sales) in order to be considered successful?

Zero. The development is all paid for. It wasn't a loan. Even if they never sell any copies, it was successful.

Malor wrote:
How many units would they need to sell (post-launch sales) in order to be considered successful?

Zero. The development is all paid for. It wasn't a loan. Even if they never sell any copies, it was successful.

I think this depends on how they set it up. Are they using this as a seed to start or are they planning to fit only in the budget with profit built in. This is also dependent on their ability to stay on budget, they may get near the end and they decide they need to go over budget and will make it up with retail sales after it is made. It is not as clear cut as they can't go wrong and it is all gravy and most of it depends on how they budget it.

Demonbox: Well, if the $2MM is characterized as a bunch of gifts, there still might be taxable implications. I don't know what the rules are regarding gifts to corporations. Gifts to other people are taxable over a certain threshold (recently $11k), but the taxes are paid by the giver of the gift. Again, no idea how that's handled with corporations, and it would only affect the few donors giving more than that amount.

It may be that legally, Kickstarter donations are considered sales of whatever the rewards are. Really don't know.

I know when The Comedy Button podcast recently kickstarted their relaunch, they talked about how a decent chunk of those funds had to be set aside because they'd be taxed on them. It may be different state to state or whatnot but seeing as how they're both in San Francisco, I imagine the gubmint will be taking at least some of the money.

Well, they've got an offsetting liability for that revenue, so I don't think it's profit yet, and shouldn't be recorded or taxed that way. After they've discharged their corresponding liabilities, then they'll know how much profit they made, and how much should be taxed.

Greetings backers of adventure! This is 2 Player Productions speaking, so if you’re expecting some witty banter from Tim Schafer I suggest reading update #2 again and learning all about love bombs! The only bombs we have here are full of shyness and self doubt, and any war fought with those would just be weird

For your amusement we have edited this video of Tim acting silly during our shoot for the Kickstarter pitch video. We’re currently working on the first episode of the series and we should have something ready to go before the end of March.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yo5eI...

No one here or anywhere was really expecting this Kickstarter to blow up the way it did. I mean, Dave told us it was an awesome idea, but who ever takes that guy seriously? The last few weeks have been kind of crazy for 2pp and Double Fine. This has gone from being a fun project we wanted to work on to being our lives for the next year+, and that’s really awesome. We have all of you guys to thank.

Some people have been asking what our plans are for the documentary series, so we wanted to address those questions.

If you are familiar with our work on the Penny Arcade series (season 1), it’ll be a little like that. Every month we plan to release a fully edited episode that runs between 10-20 minutes (at least) and sums up the progress of development. It’s likely the episodes will have some kind of theme, like “building the engine” or “designing the characters”. You’ll also get to know the team behind the game and some history of adventure games along the way.

We also want to feature more specific videos that focus on the nuts and bolts of the development process. Maybe Tim and the team had a really awesome meeting that lasts for like an hour. Let’s put that online for you guys! Maybe two of the lead developers had a breakthrough with a feature they had been struggling with. Upload it! We want these videos to be accessible and informative. Some people may not be in to all the nuts and bolts of things and just want to get the gist of it. Some people like nuts and bolts! We’ll try to make you both happy.

Spoilers are an issue of course, and yeah, there may be some of those. We’ll give you fair warning though. It’s not our goal to reveal every aspect of the game, so as often as possible we’ll try to avoid ruining key story points and puzzles. We’ll have an episode about designing a good puzzle, but we won’t reveal all of them.

We’re proud to announce that Terence Lee, the composer behind the awesome indie game “Dust Force”, will be producing original music for the documentary soundtrack. The second we heard Terence's compositions we knew he was someone we wanted to work with. We have deep roots with the chip music community, and Terence’s music merges the nostalgia of chip with rich natural textures and intelligent, catchy songwriting. We want this soundtrack to be more then just background noise; when everything is said and done the music should stand on it’s own as something you guys will want to listen to over and over.

We also want to take this opportunity to announce that Tim will be doing an “Ask Me Anything” on Reddit this Sunday, March 4th, from 1pm to 3pm PST. If you’re unfamiliar with Reddit, it’s best described as a social news website that’s driven by user contributions. “I Am A” is a specific forum on the site where people will host public chats to talk about who they are and what they do. If there is anything you would like to pick Tim’s brain about, here’s your chance! Just head over to the IAmA board at the specified time and keep an eye out for Tim’s thread.

http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/

You may even find a bunch of other interesting stuff to check out too. Just looking right now you’ll find the scientist Neil deGrasse Tyson, someone who was struck by lighting, and a chimney sweeper amongst many others. That would probably make for an interesting Venn diagram.

Follow the link below and you’ll find an unnecessarily detailed recollection of our time shooting the Kickstarter pitch video. It’s kind of long, so maybe go to the bathroom and then make yourself a sandwich before digging in. Just make sure you wash your hands first, because health regulations!

http://2playerproductions.com/blog/l...

Thanks a ton everyone! Tell everyone you know and lets see if this thing can hit 3 million!!!!!

Smart move....Stacking is on sale on Steam, for $9.99

That was always coming wasn't it? Or was that Costume Quest that they were able to convert due to a donation?

This blew my mind while digging through the RPS archives for news stories about Valve's development hardware specs:

“What I think would be much better would be if the community could finance the games. In other words, ‘Hey, I really like this idea you have. I’ll be an early investor in that and, as a result, at a later point I may make a return on that product, but I’ll also get a copy of that game.’ So move financing from something that occurs between a publisher and a developer… Instead have it be something where funding is coming out of community for games and game concepts they really like.”

- Gabe Newell, 2009

Only 4 days to go on the Kickstarter. I hope their project gets funded.

Doublefine was on NPR this morning, talking about Kickstarter, publishers and their upcoming game. Link below:
http://www.npr.org/2012/03/09/148278...

With only four days left until the end of the Double Fine Adventure Kickstarter Campaign, we bring you Mr. Tim Schafer himself for some very important announcements:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycZhm...

Or maybe you don't have time for all this video nonsense. In that case, let me break it down for you using three cute little bullet points:

• The Collector's Edition will be packaged in a cardboard box reminiscent of the old school games we all know and love. It will be awesome.

• Mr. Schafer himself will be signing all of the Double Fine Adventure books. He'll also gently caress all of their bindings. I mean, if you're into it.

• We've added a fancy new shirt to the $100 tier so you may show the world how amazing you are. Check it out!:

All of these fabulous rewards will only be made available to backers, so get them while you can!
IMAGE(http://oi39.tinypic.com/90692o.jpg)

We love you! Like, too much.

Sigh. I wish I had another $70 to give them.

WipEout wrote:

Sigh. I wish I had another $70 to give them.

+1

Also, to the Trenched XBLA card hanging on top of Tim's monitor with an "Iron Brigade" post-it note stuck over the title.

Extra glad I went for the $100 tier now.

$2,631,595 at the moment.

Sparhawk wrote:

$2,631,595 at the moment.

That's f*cking amazing o_0

So happy for these guys, they deserve it for all the fun they've brought into this world : )

The only other developer right now I can imagine getting so much money is probably Valve, to finish Episode 3...

Mex wrote:

The only other developer right now I can imagine getting so much money is probably Valve, to finish Episode 3...

Gabe's worth a billion dollars. I don't think funding is a problem for them.

SixteenBlue wrote:
Mex wrote:

The only other developer right now I can imagine getting so much money is probably Valve, to finish Episode 3...

Gabe's worth a billion dollars. I don't think funding is a problem for them.

Maybe Episode 3 costs A billion + 5 dollars u_u

Mex wrote:
SixteenBlue wrote:
Mex wrote:

The only other developer right now I can imagine getting so much money is probably Valve, to finish Episode 3...

Gabe's worth a billion dollars. I don't think funding is a problem for them.

Maybe Episode 3 costs A billion + 5 dollars u_u

Touche.