The Secret World

Well interesting thing about AoC is that all the improvments with the engine and all that jazz was due to the TSW development team passing it down to AoC.

Aw, damn you! I did not need to be more excited to try this out ;P

just trying to help out!

I'm of a weird mindset right now with this game though. I'm not chomping at the bit to get into the beta(yet), and kinda glad it got extended.

I'm still enjoying the hell outta SWTOR, but like i said at the beginning if they didnt keep up with their end game content i'd not be sticking around.

Still i'm excited for this to be coming out as i think this has the best chance to bridge the gaps between themepark and sandbox mmos. Plus i'm a sucker for a good story and like how this one is interactive.

I love that there are no good guy factions.

You have the zealots, the opportunists, and the anarchists.

If I preorder do I get a drinking cape & slow-motion mammoth mount?

Wait, wrong Funcom mmo. I swore I wouldn't get my hopes up after AoC but damn, this is looking good.

I'm lazy but the setting and premise looks intriguing. Does it use the Trinity/threat mechanic?

It is an open classless system. I think that players can (and probably will for the sake of familiarity) gravitate to that, but I don't think its required at all. I haven't seen anything about threat mechanics. (as in they don't exist IMHO)

Follow the links to the deck system on the other page.

fangblackbone wrote:

It is an open classless system. I think that players can (and probably will for the sake of familiarity) gravitate to that, but I don't think its required at all. I haven't seen anything about threat mechanics. (as in they don't exist IMHO)

Follow the links to the deck system on the other page.

Not sure where you are getting that info.. I spent some time in the forums and there are official comments from the devs saying that dungeons are tuned for X amount of healers.. etc.. Threat mechanic seems to be there as well with scripting.. so this is firmly in the EQ model of MMORPG game design.

I'd say he's getting the information from Funcom, since they've said over and over that there are no classes or levels. No idea about threat, though.

muttonchop wrote:

I'd say he's getting the information from Funcom, since they've said over and over that there are no classes or levels. No idea about threat, though.

Semantics... they've just replaced classes and levels with skills and "decks" There are quotes from the devs that discuss that dungeons are tuned for X amount of certain skills.

So you will still need people "spec'd" for healing.. for dps and for tanking..

Sorry if you believe otherwise.

edit

I'm still getting it... the backdrop looks interesting enough.. but this does help me set my expectations.

There are hundreds of skills and skill effects. You certainly do not have to follow a deck. They mentioned that if you do, you can be rewarded with a cosmetic outfit designed for that "deck". The number of skill combination possiblities far outnumbers the number of decks so if you are only following "deck"s with your characters, you are missing out on a healthy chunk of abilities.

A lot of the boss fighting footage I have seen has been stage based with avoidance events and adapting or triggered external vulnerabilities. I have not seen a tank and spank video yet.

•(Pistols) Give and Take – Whenever you critically hit an enemy you gain a HoT.

I wonder if this is what they consider a "heal spec'd" character?

fangblackbone wrote:

There are hundreds of skills and skill effects. You certainly do not have to follow a deck. They mentioned that if you do, you can be rewarded with a cosmetic outfit designed for that "deck". The number of skill combination possiblities far outnumbers the number of decks so if you are only following "deck"s with your characters, you are missing out on a healthy chunk of abilities.

A lot of the boss fighting footage I have seen has been stage based with avoidance events and adapting or triggered external vulnerabilities. I have not seen a tank and spank video yet.

While you are correct.. you can make your character anyway you want it doesnt change the fact that the developers have stated that they are tuning content to "expect" X amount of certain skills... healing be one of them.. so you will have to bring X amount of certain skills to dungeons in order to complete them..

As well I can all but assure you that hundreds of skills and skill effects will in short order be reduced to X amount of "approved" builds (what that X is depends but its usually a fairly small number). Its the nature of these types of games... and I would all but bet the farm on them falling into the classic archtypes.. Healer, physical and magic DPS (both melee and ranged) and "Tanks" (these days the common design "win" for MMOG's is to simply allow tanks to also put out big dps numbers but in the end they hold threat)

Given a PVE setting with archtypes.. threat is all but assured.. there will be no doubt all sorts of tricks and scripts that will mask it to as of yet undetermined effectiveness.

So if the game lets you use any combination of abilities, but the playerbase decides to restrict themselves to certain builds, it's the game's fault?

muttonchop wrote:

So if the game lets you use any combination of abilities, but the playerbase decides to restrict themselves to certain builds, it's the game's fault?

Its not that simple now is it?.. if the game design forces you to bring X to the dungeon in order to succeed what do you think the player base will gravitate to? Optimize the hell out of X to finish the dungeon in as quick as possible and as efficient as possible. Its a side effect of any sort of "grind" mechanic.

I don't have the answers.. but if the Game Designers choose to adopt the trinty/threat model then it almost seems to force them to design the game in a very "restrictive" manner... again these are largely also dictated by decisions to even adopt a PVE model... that alone forces developers into a slew of almost predetermined game design decisions.

I mean I have an answer.. but it requires $M of dollars that I can't get.. as well as possibly creating a game that no-one actually wants to play besides a handful of really old MMOG players.

When somebody advances a workable set of game mechanics [em]for characters with different abilities working together[/em]* that doesn't involve the ability to soak or avoid damage, deal damage, and heal damage, I'll stop rolling my eyes at folks who complain about "the holy trinity". (P.S. When someone complains about the existence of "tanks", or of aggro, they shouldn't forget that some people [em]like[/em] playing characters that trade blows with enemies instead of dodging out of the way.)

(* of course, it's easy to do this in a game where every character works the same way, or when there's no particular synergy between characters with different abilities)

Hypatian wrote:

When somebody advances a workable set of game mechanics [em]for characters with different abilities working together[/em]* that doesn't involve the ability to soak or avoid damage, deal damage, and heal damage, I'll stop rolling my eyes at folks who complain about "the holy trinity". (P.S. When someone complains about the existence of "tanks", or of aggro, they shouldn't forget that some people [em]like[/em] playing characters that trade blows with enemies instead of dodging out of the way.)

(* of course, it's easy to do this in a game where every character works the same way, or when there's no particular synergy between characters with different abilities)

We didnt have tanks/healers or threat in IoK.. since basically every character could heal themselves for 90% of their health in one turn... combat was chaotic and uber deadly.. since you could be one-shotted by several "bosses". In itself this wasnt a perfect system since these uber deadly fights involved bring "target dummies" to simply improve your odds of not getting targeted.

I'm actually ok with roles.. I like the idea of different abilities and skills..whatever you want to lump them into.. I'm basically over PVE and the grind mechanic. I'm not even that dissatisfied with the concept of threat.

One thing is small scale MMOG environments where you are part of a larger world but with heavily "instanced" environments that are run by a "DM/GM" that can essentially tailor the experience to the group and provide a more "randomized" experience.

edit

I also thought I made it clear that I know I'm in the minority.. and that the vast majority of MMOG players are 100% happy with the existing mechanics.

TheGameguru wrote:

I mean I have an answer.. but it requires $M of dollars that I can't get.. as well as possibly creating a game that no-one actually wants to play besides a handful of really old MMOG players.

Care to elaborate? You've aired these complaints in a few MMO threads now, and I'm genuinely curious as to how you'd get rid of threat and healing.

As far as avoiding the Unholy Trinity, its doable. For example, City of Heroes didn't really focus on that trinity early on, and even now its possible to avoid if the players know what they are doing. The Repeat Offenders metagroup was famous for that, and a damn lot of fun to group with. Deliberately breaking away from any need for 'healorz and deeps and tanks', and doing it well.

I'd hope for something similar here. Sadly, what you will see is the same thing that happened in CoH, the majority of the player base clung to the trinity like it was their only hope, and never moved past that. Pity.

LtWarhound wrote:

As far as avoiding the Unholy Trinity, its doable. For example, City of Heroes didn't really focus on that trinity early on, and even now its possible to avoid if the players know what they are doing. The Repeat Offenders metagroup was famous for that, and a damn lot of fun to group with. Deliberately breaking away from any need for 'healorz and deeps and tanks', and doing it well.

I'd hope for something similar here. Sadly, what you will see is the same thing that happened in CoH, the majority of the player base clung to the trinity like it was their only hope, and never moved past that. Pity.

Haven't played that in awhile, but for its first few years, I don't think you could have done much high level content without some degree of tanking. The controller and defender archetypes were interesting ideas, but utterly dependent on other people for leveling.

muttonchop wrote:
TheGameguru wrote:

I mean I have an answer.. but it requires $M of dollars that I can't get.. as well as possibly creating a game that no-one actually wants to play besides a handful of really old MMOG players.

Care to elaborate? You've aired these complaints in a few MMO threads now, and I'm genuinely curious as to how you'd get rid of threat and healing.

I have two visions..one has been fleshed out in much greater detail and I've attempted to secure the license and raise money without much success.

I believe there is a market for a smaller scale highly instanced MMOG where people will pay $30+ a month for a live "GM" that can control instanced environments for groups/guilds and deliver far more unique and tailored social RPG roles based gaming. Gear as well as skill will be important but since it's personalized you won't need gear checks etc..

Healing I believe is the most awful and boring aspect of the traditional MMoG. I would just allow players to heal themselves.

My other vision is really simple lol. Autoduel Online.

kazooka wrote:

Haven't played that in awhile, but for its first few years, I don't think you could have done much high level content without some degree of tanking. The controller and defender archetypes were interesting ideas, but utterly dependent on other people for leveling.

That was the point of the Repeat Offenders, at least at first, they branched out a lot across the years. No tanks. No scrappers. No blasters. How about an all radiation defender supergroup? All storm controller SG? All kinetics defenders SG? Man, rolling with a full 8 man kinetic defender Pinball Wizards group was some of the most fun I had in CoH. Layer those buffs and stack those debuffs, Pinball Wizards moved at max speed nonstop, none of this silly stop to catch a breath, moving like vorpal bunnies overdosing on pixie stiks. Repeat Offenders did all the content, and beat it.

Having leveled several controllers and defenders, mostly solo, or 2 or 3 man teams at most, I can honestly say that you never needed anything else (and this loops back to my original point) if the players knew what they were doing. Trinity? Did not need, did not want. Its doable, but its dependent on the players being willing to move outside the trinity comfort zone, and the majority of players aren't. So, I expect to see cookie cutter tank/healer/dps 'decks' in TSW within a few weeks of beta starting. Not that I will be worrying about them, I'll build for fun, just like I do in the other games that allow it, such as Guild Wars.

TheGameguru wrote:

I believe there is a market for a smaller scale highly instanced MMOG where people will pay $30+ a month for a live "GM" that can control instanced environments for groups/guilds and deliver far more unique and tailored social RPG roles based gaming. Gear as well as skill will be important but since it's personalized you won't need gear checks etc..

This I would play

TheGameguru wrote:

I believe there is a market for a smaller scale highly instanced MMOG where people will pay $30+ a month for a live "GM" that can control instanced environments for groups/guilds and deliver far more unique and tailored social RPG roles based gaming. Gear as well as skill will be important but since it's personalized you won't need gear checks etc.

I believe the Pathfinder Online MMO is trending in this direction. Certainly it's seeking to capture a lot more of the 'tabletop flavor' that MMOs grew out of than many of the most recent online games.

TheGameguru wrote:

Healing I believe is the most awful and boring aspect of the traditional MMoG. I would just allow players to heal themselves.

I disagree with this assertion, good sir. In point of fact, I love playing a support character. What I want is a way to be a support character without 'getting into a rut'. It's true of all classes, really: I want some variety and novelty. I don't mind 'whack a mole healbotting' sometimes if other times I could do something else. Healing in the upcoming game TERA looks to deal with this issue in an interesting way, and I'm keen to hear Blizzard's plans for the Monk class coming in Mists of Pandaria.

Michael Zenke wrote:
TheGameguru wrote:

I believe there is a market for a smaller scale highly instanced MMOG where people will pay $30+ a month for a live "GM" that can control instanced environments for groups/guilds and deliver far more unique and tailored social RPG roles based gaming. Gear as well as skill will be important but since it's personalized you won't need gear checks etc.

I believe the Pathfinder Online MMO is trending in this direction. Certainly it's seeking to capture a lot more of the 'tabletop flavor' that MMOs grew out of than many of the most recent online games.

TheGameguru wrote:

Healing I believe is the most awful and boring aspect of the traditional MMoG. I would just allow players to heal themselves.

I disagree with this assertion, good sir. In point of fact, I love playing a support character. What I want is a way to be a support character without 'getting into a rut'. It's true of all classes, really: I want some variety and novelty. I don't mind 'whack a mole healbotting' sometimes if other times I could do something else. Healing in the upcoming game TERA looks to deal with this issue in an interesting way, and I'm keen to hear Blizzard's plans for the Monk class coming in Mists of Pandaria.

My favorite classes/roles tend to be support...Bards in EQ are a good example...my focus isn't support...I think all players should have support and abilities that enhance or compliment in some way a group. But I think the current typical structure of highly scripted and pattern type PVE experiences push healing into bring X healers that can heal X amount of damage in Y time. Little tricks to make it not complete spamming some keys have been done but ultimately it all seems contrived.

Michael Zenke wrote:
TheGameguru wrote:

I believe there is a market for a smaller scale highly instanced MMOG where people will pay $30+ a month for a live "GM" that can control instanced environments for groups/guilds and deliver far more unique and tailored social RPG roles based gaming. Gear as well as skill will be important but since it's personalized you won't need gear checks etc.

I believe the Pathfinder Online MMO is trending in this direction. Certainly it's seeking to capture a lot more of the 'tabletop flavor' that MMOs grew out of than many of the most recent online games.

TheGameguru wrote:

Healing I believe is the most awful and boring aspect of the traditional MMoG. I would just allow players to heal themselves.

I disagree with this assertion, good sir. In point of fact, I love playing a support character. What I want is a way to be a support character without 'getting into a rut'. It's true of all classes, really: I want some variety and novelty. I don't mind 'whack a mole healbotting' sometimes if other times I could do something else. Healing in the upcoming game TERA looks to deal with this issue in an interesting way, and I'm keen to hear Blizzard's plans for the Monk class coming in Mists of Pandaria.

This is why Rift was so much fun during leveling. Tired of healing? Switch roles and become the tank with the same character. Rift really has the best and most versatile class system to date.

Michael Zenke wrote:

I disagree with this assertion, good sir. In point of fact, I love playing a support character. What I want is a way to be a support character without 'getting into a rut'. It's true of all classes, really: I want some variety and novelty.

For years I've been trying to find another MMO that has a class like the EQ2 Coercer. Playing that class was simply fun. I could kill a large group of enemies without ever engaging them myself. Stun a group, make one your ally, debuff another so that every time they use a skill they hurt themselves, have your new buddy attack his old friends while you just sit back and stun, slow, etc. It really felt like a puppet master kind of class and on an almost monthly basis I nearly crack and reinstall EQ2 just to play this class again. That was a support class that was far more than spamming a heal skill while staring at health bars.

I believe the Pathfinder Online MMO is trending in this direction. Certainly it's seeking to capture a lot more of the 'tabletop flavor' that MMOs grew out of than many of the most recent online games.

I hadnt seen this.. but I'm putting it on the radar..

I think my vision is somewhere between NWN2 and WoW. I think the instances are both Game Designer developed to say 80% and then the remaining 20% is controlled by a "DM/GM" Now that role is actually a player as well.. and in many ways is both competitive and cooperative. I would imagine that many players would play with a fairly regular group and would take turns handling the DM/GM role. The tools that are given to the DM/GM are versatile enough to handle mobs on full AI, partial AI and complete control as well. The group is rewarded based on an algorithm that "computes" the degree of difficulty the DM/GM has "assembled" as well as the performance of the DM/GM so to be fully rewarded as a group and as the DM/GM it behooves you to perform well (on both sides).

We should be seeing a lot of info coming in starting tomorrow. Press embargo gets lifted at 6am.

Cool. I'm still quietly optimistic about this. I got a three-day free pass back to RIFT over the weekend, and while I enjoyed it, it wasn't quite enough to make me want to re-up. By the time this comes out, I think I might be ready!

Stunned that this is subscription based...when will these companies learn?