Alternative medicine, 'medicine', quacks, etc

LarryC wrote:

Of course you're still asking the wrong question! We do not study the efficacy of phrenology. We study the efficacy of a specific procedure.

Similarly, we do not study the efficacy of pharmacology! We study the efficacy of rofecoxib in reducing the pain scores of patients in acute gouty attack.

It was a joke. Though technically still valid as phrenology was used to diagnose psychological conditions, not study them.

Regardless, I think that you are projecting an opinion upon me that I don't have. All I've said so far is that the data behind accupuncture is inconclusive and contradictory. In my original post i even pointed out that it did have some beneficial effects, though I personally think the evidence points more towards it being a physical reaction to the technique, rather than the arcane pseudoscientific explanations about chi and pressure points that accupuncture purports. The entire rest of the discussion was a response to some decidedly uncritical cheerleading for an unproven treatment. You clearly think that the case for accupuncture has been made. That's okay, it's your opinion. My opinion differs.

ruhk:

Just clarifying that that was not my opinion at all. I thought I made that abundantly clear. I swear, it's like I'm not speaking English or something.

LarryC wrote:

I swear, it's like I'm not speaking English or something.

Funny, I was thinking the same.

Alright, let's review. What opinion do you think I am projecting on you? (pleads relevance to critical thinking - leading to relevance to thread).

What opinion do you think I have on acupuncture and meridian theory?

A pair of my in laws are magnet users. I don't understand the specifics and I don't have the motivation to google it, but to my understanding they think magnets in certain places keeps things running smoothly or something. They are also hardcore tea party people, huge on personal freedom from the government, and...the most generous and compassionate people I know. Yeah the dissonance confuses me and I know them, so I understand your skepticism.

Anyway I watched my father go to a chiropractor who missed the fact that he had a slipped disc and subsequently wrenched him into two years of painful and needless surgery, so I have a burning contempt for the entire practice (I am usually in the minority there, so I accept there's room for other opinions.). But the point is that there was absolutely no way for my dad to collect restitution from the chiropractor, and the insurance company got to eat the thousands of dollars of surgery costs. I don't think they even dropped that hack as a provider, since we live in a world where bone-twisting has as much respect as actual doctors.

It all really depends on the chiropractor. When my wife was pregnant with our first child, she had such bad bac pain that simply getting in or out of the car brought tears to her eyes. Our family Dr recommended a chirp, who got rid of the pain in one trip. No further visits needed or asked for.

What did the chiropractor do?

At an extended family gathering, I was approached by one of my wife's relatives who was absolutely convinced that the expensive "choir"practor (which seems to be a common mispronunciation here in the midwest) that his daughter sees could cure my son's severe food allergies with a machine that energizes a plain glass of water into...something. Whatever it becomes it's not medicine, because he was clear that "there's no medicine in it!" At which point I should have stopped him and told him I'd rather sacrifice chickens under a full moon while naked and chanting, because it would be just as effective. Instead I kept my trap shut and nodded like a polite cousin-in-law or whatever the hell I am to him.

At least I could eat the chickens.

Funkenpants wrote:

What did the chiropractor do?

Something to her hips/lower back I think. This was a recommendation for my wife to see this specific chiro, who our family Dr has worked with before. I think she also had training as a midwife, so she was aware of what could be done on a pregnant woman.

"Alternative medicine" is a label made up by quacks so they can create a false dichotomy to escape the scrutiny regular medical treatments get and take advantage of the sick and injured.

LarryC wrote:

A paper entitled "Does acupuncture procedure Z work in alleviating hand cramps?" only works to answer that question only, it neither substantiates nor repudiates the underlying meridian theory, or the efficacy of acupuncture in general.

So, if I'm reading you correctly, you're saying that a study that shows that a) sticking acupuncture needles in meridian points b) sticking acupuncture needles in random non-meridian spots and c) simulating acupuncture using toothpicks are all equally effective treatments for hand cramps says nothing about the meridian theory?

Seth wrote:

A pair of my in laws are magnet users. I don't understand the specifics and I don't have the motivation to google it, but to my understanding they think magnets in certain places keeps things running smoothly or something. They are also hardcore tea party people, huge on personal freedom from the government, and...the most generous and compassionate people I know. Yeah the dissonance confuses me and I know them, so I understand your skepticism.

You could try pointing out that if blood was ferromagnetic to the point where a magnetic bracelet could affect it, an MRI scan would make people explode.

mudbunny wrote:
Funkenpants wrote:

What did the chiropractor do?

Something to her hips/lower back I think. This was a recommendation for my wife to see this specific chiro, who our family Dr has worked with before. I think she also had training as a midwife, so she was aware of what could be done on a pregnant woman.

Chiropractor who offers to treat your back: legit (sometimes).
Chiropractor who offers to treat your eczema: quack (always).

Alien Love Gardner:

So, if I'm reading you correctly, you're saying that a study that shows that a) sticking acupuncture needles in meridian points b) sticking acupuncture needles in random non-meridian spots and c) simulating acupuncture using toothpicks are all equally effective treatments for hand cramps says nothing about the meridian theory?

Ah. Good call. If meridian theory states that the treatment should be effective, then a powerful and well-made study showing otherwise calls that prediction made by meridian theory to be false. However, since meridian theory is not scientific, I confess I hadn't even thought about considering it seriously as such. My bad. It's suggestive of my biases.

Arise!

A $30 million class-action Lawsuit has been filed against Homeopathy Manufacturer Boiron and Shoppers Drug Mart over the "drug" Oscillococcinum which claims to be duck liver diluted 200C (one part in 10^400), letting wiki do the math;

As there are only about 10^80 atoms in the entire observable universe, a dilution of one molecule in the observable universe would be about 40C. Oscillococcinum would thus require 10^320 more universes to simply have one molecule in the final substance.

I'm very interested to see where this leads, I'm not sure how significant $30 mil is to either of these companies but perhaps it would set precedent to really start fighting this stuff.

Woot! Even if it's just a symbolic slap on the wrist that's better than nothing.

But if they are forced to reduce the amount of succination, won't that lessening of dilution put patients in danger?! I fear for the public health!

Shame Krev, have I taught you nothing?

Quack Medicine at its finest!

The packaging for Oscillo lists the active ingredient as “Anas Barbariae Hepatis et Cordis extractum 200C”. Put into plain English, this describes a dilution of an initial extract of the heart and liver of the Barbary (or Muscovy) duck.

100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

Just wanted to see that in its full form.

For comparison, the homeopathic number:

10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

Well played KG. Thanks Mike, seeing the number in standard notation definitely adds a level of that the scientific notations may not embody quite so well.

I know we don't have a huge number of Canadians here (not sure if they're interested in Americans) but nonetheless care of CFI:

Help us find claimants

If any of you - or anyone you know - has taken this product believing its claims to effectiveness, please contact jtrottier [at] cficanada.ca. We are looking for additional claimants to join the lawsuit.

KingGorilla wrote:

Shame Krev, have I taught you nothing?

Quack Medicine at its finest!

The packaging for Oscillo lists the active ingredient as “Anas Barbariae Hepatis et Cordis extractum 200C”. Put into plain English, this describes a dilution of an initial extract of the heart and liver of the Barbary (or Muscovy) duck.

Sigh. And my mom continues to buy this sh*t even though I've been explaining that it's just sugar pills for years.

Obviously, you're all just a bunch of hecklers on the Big Pharma payroll!!

Tanglebones wrote:

Sigh. And my mom continues to buy this sh*t even though I've been explaining that it's just sugar pills for years.

sh*t, I'd buy sugar pills if they were just advertised as that. In fact, this is making me hungry for some Rockets now.

Wait a minute, you Americans call Rockets "Smarties"? Don't you know what Smarties are?

Now I've got something to be mad about! I gotta start my own thread: Alternative candy names, 'Smarties', etc.

Canadian smarties are american M&Ms?

Seth wrote:

Canadian smarties are american M&Ms?

No, we have M&Ms too. Smarties come in a cardboard box and you have to eat the red ones last.

Gravey wrote:

sh*t, I'd buy sugar pills if they were just advertised as that. In fact, this is making me hungry for some Rockets now.

Sure, but would you pay $2500/kg ($1133.98/pound) for them?

"Suspect you've taken too much homeopathic medicine? Need a boost to your current remedies? Try Antidote, the universal pill that protects you and enhances the effects of your homeopathic treatments - automatically!"

We could make a lot of money with a knock-on universal "effects smoother" for homeopathic medicines. And we could use saccharum universalum as a basis. A pound or so should last us a few years...

Well, Canadian laws may be different, but I'm not sure what they're suing for. They're telling people exactly how the product was manufactured, and exactly what's in it. At least here in the States, they simply don't put curative claims on the label, and depend on people knowing what they're looking for.

They're not harming anyone directly, they're not defrauding anyone, and I assume they're not making false assertions of curative power, so I'm not sure what the basis is to sue. It's dumb to buy the product, but if people want to buy a product so diluted that it's just sugar, well, that's up to them.

I would think they are arguing that there are ingredients on the label that can't possibly be in the preparation...

I don't know enough about the law to grasp all the legal nuances or what "violate consumer protection laws" fully entails but I do see that back in March

homeopathic manufacturer Boiron agreed to a $12 million dollar settlement of class action lawsuits alleging false advertising.

. Seems odd to name Boiron again in this new suit but then is likely deemed separate issue from false advertising.

Malor wrote:

Well, Canadian laws may be different, but I'm not sure what they're suing for. They're telling people exactly how the product was manufactured, and exactly what's in it. At least here in the States, they simply don't put curative claims on the label, and depend on people knowing what they're looking for.

They're not harming anyone directly, they're not defrauding anyone, and I assume they're not making false assertions of curative power, so I'm not sure what the basis is to sue. It's dumb to buy the product, but if people want to buy a product so diluted that it's just sugar, well, that's up to them.

The basis is, according to the webpage, the following:

1 - They are claiming that the duck bits are in the pill, when mathematically they cannot be.
2 - They are claiming that the duck bits are effective in the prevention and/or treatment of influenza, of which there is no proof. (According to Canadian laws, if you are labelling it as an active ingredient, you have to have some sort of scientific proof that it is effective)
3 - The label (specifically the 200C) is misleading. Canadian laws, IIRC, limit you to putting on the label the amount that is in there. 200C is not an amount, it is a process, and it is misleading because in normal science, the higher the number, the more there is. However, in homeopathy-land, the higher number means less is in there.

My prediction - They will pay the fine/decision, change the label, remove the duck bits from the active part of the ingredients to the non-active ingredients, label it as a homeopathic whatever, and it will just end up getting placed in a different spot on the shelf.

Wow. That's some high quality H2O.