Where Your iPad and iPod Are Made

Malor wrote:

Considering that Apple's sitting on a hundred billion dollars in cash, and that they've just posted the most profitable quarter of any corporation in history, the fact that any of their workers, either direct or indirect, is that badly underpaid is criminal.

I think they're a business tho, so what exactly is the incentive?

It's like, yeah, they can spend their billion dollars and gimp themselves financially, but why? just so the iPhones say "Made in America"?

The US government can't really incentivize them to come back, and if the US were to say "Ok, no taxes for Apple! Come back!" it would just piss off other people, and waste years of manpower while Apple reworks their manufacturing.

They'd have to build factories and all kinds of stuff back in the US, too, re-work all their processes and all those things. How many years to do that, realistically.

And if they increase the working conditions on China to more than that government requires, it would bother more people because "Why aren't they investing in the US"

I think Steve Jobs was right when he said "Those jobs are never coming back to America". It just doesn't make sense.

edit: I suppose morally it does make sense, and long term, but short term?

Paleocon wrote:
Padmewan wrote:

The "solution" that both bleeding-heart socialists and hard-hearted capitalists would agree on (I think) is a flatter economic world where disparities between incomes are much lower than they are now. How to get there is, I think, the real question.

I'm not sure that there is any agreement on that score though. If the disparity doesn't exist, the potential for profit diminishes. As a hard hearted capitalist, I'm not sure that meets with my own interests.

It doesn't meet with your personal interests, no, but if capitalism works the way it "should," your and everyone else's pursuit of maximum profit will continuously kill profit margins, with the end result being a flatter economy... that is, if monopolies don't take over and use "unfair" power and if the technology revolution doesn't outpace that profit maximization.

But we can also switch to John Rawls' analysis: does the improvement of the most well-off also improve the well-being of the least well-off? I guess then the question is whether the factory workers in China are better off now than they were in their previous agrarian lifestyle. Free-market capitalists would say that, by their choice of heading to the factories, they are... but that's only true if a change in the economy didn't make their situation worse before heading to the factories made them "better."

iaintgotnopants wrote:
TheGameguru wrote:

If people actually gave a sh*t... they would picket outside of Apple stores around the world until enough negative publicity forced Apple to make significant changes.. But people dont give a sh*t..because cheap iPhones and iPads are way more important than worker conditions way across the world in a country most American's don't really give two sh*ts about.

Besides.. Apple couldnt compete effectively with all the other companies doing the exact same thing Apple is doing... yet probably not quite as hard and efficiently...thus Apple is making money hand over fist.

Yes, because protesting Apple will stop every other major tech company that Foxconn manufactures products for.

You missed that part where I pointed out that all the other companies do the exact same thing Apple is doing?? Right? It's not just blind devotion to Apple? There is no room for that nonsense.

I feel the need to review the 7 Deadlies against current standards. Somehow wrath, pride and greed became virtues. Fornication, gluttony and envy sort of flip-flop depending on circumstances (gluttony is good, being fat is bad?). The only one left is discouragement, which can still be cool if you're cynical enough about it.

Anyway, this topic seems all greed.

Mex wrote:

I think they're a business tho, so what exactly is the incentive?

It's like, yeah, they can spend their billion dollars and gimp themselves financially, but why? just so the iPhones say "Made in America"?

The US government can't really incentivize them to come back, and if the US were to say "Ok, no taxes for Apple! Come back!" it would just piss off other people, and waste years of manpower while Apple reworks their manufacturing.

They'd have to build factories and all kinds of stuff back in the US, too, re-work all their processes and all those things. How many years to do that, realistically.

And if they increase the working conditions on China to more than that government requires, it would bother more people because "Why aren't they investing in the US"

I think Steve Jobs was right when he said "Those jobs are never coming back to America". It just doesn't make sense.

edit: I suppose morally it does make sense, and long term, but short term?

I'd wager it would take around 3 years to ramp up a production facility and workers for producing some of the components for + assembly of something like an iPhone. Which is actually around what you would expect for the design cycle of a complex device (not an iPhone 4 -> 4s, but a new product like the iPad). That could be shortened a bit(or lengthened substantially) depending on what is being produced, the experience of the company that is starting things up, the location being used, local infrastructure, etc.

The government could make a few changes that would drive jobs back to the US without substantial tax/tariff changes. Simply requiring, with random and unannounced inspections to enforce, manufacturers of any product that is sold at volume in the US to meet OSHA standards and provide reasonable benefits/work hours/working conditions (wages can stay scaled to local cost-of-living, but they can't demand 80-hour work weeks, deny reasonable breaks, or employ child labor). The jobs may not come back, but it would certainly be a much better system for everyone(employees are happier, employers don't get news stories about child labor that need multi-million dollar PR campaigns to fight).

Farhad Manjoo on why Apple should improve conditions, including financial justifications, and despite the fact that "whaaaaah everyone else does it that's not fair whaaaah!"

I'm working on adding all the links posted in here to the opening. Thanks for that link, Space!

SpacePPoliceman wrote:

Farhad Manjoo on why Apple should improve conditions, including financial justifications, and despite the fact that "whaaaaah everyone else does it that's not fair whaaaah!"

So...Apple will be the catalyst for Skynet?? We all know where that ends up.. hot women Terminators that will save us from other Terminators. sign me up.

Interestingly NYT worked with Chinese media Caixin to publish their story in Chinese, and are publishing translated comments the story has received here.

Chinese have as varied a response, maybe even more so, than Americans have had so far. On the flip side, Chinese people are probably even more fanatical about Apple products than most Americans are. The last two big product events in China, the iPad 2 and the iPhone 4S, the Beijing Sanlitun store had to stay closed due to fights breaking out and dangerously large crowds.

We all know where that ends up.. hot women Terminators that will save one person, who isn't any of us from other Terminators.

We're just cannon fodder, the random people in vehicles on the streets that get crushed by debris or stomped by a Terminator. If we're really lucky, we might be the parents of John Connor.

I think avoiding the Skynet outcome would be prudent.

Chinese have as varied a response, maybe even more so, than Americans have had so far.

So even the Chinese don't give a flying fornicate about their fellow Chinamen. Depressing.

dejanzie wrote:
Chinese have as varied a response, maybe even more so, than Americans have had so far.

So even the Chinese don't give a flying fornicate about their fellow Chinamen. Depressing.

What I mean by varied is that they have a wide range of responses, from not caring to a sense of helplessness to blaming the local government, as well as sadness and fatalism. Some actually do care. There probably isn't the kind of moral outrage Americans tend to have, but there is a very real shame among the middle class and up as being seen as the factory for the world. I'm sure being seen as the factory that doesn't enforce decent employee standards of the world only hurts more.

I think there's a lot of pride that should be taken in being the people that actually make the world's wealth. But it's pretty disgusting that the workers don't get a little larger share of the pie.

Henry Ford, one of the all-time great capitalists, thought it was critically important to pay his workers as much as he could, because that's what grew his market to sell even more cars into.

Chairman_Mao wrote:
dejanzie wrote:
Chinese have as varied a response, maybe even more so, than Americans have had so far.

So even the Chinese don't give a flying fornicate about their fellow Chinamen. Depressing.

What I mean by varied is that they have a wide range of responses, from not caring to a sense of helplessness to blaming the local government, as well as sadness and fatalism. Some actually do care. There probably isn't the kind of moral outrage Americans tend to have, but there is a very real shame among the middle class and up as being seen as the factory for the world. I'm sure being seen as the factory that doesn't enforce decent employee standards of the world only hurts more.

Thanks for elaborating.

Malor wrote:

Henry Ford, one of the all-time great capitalists, thought it was critically important to pay his workers as much as he could, because that's what grew his market to sell even more cars into.

This is why the drive to outsource jobs and drive down salaries has never made any sense to me. It speaks volumes of the shortsightedness of the people who run big businesses.

Kraint wrote:
Malor wrote:

Henry Ford, one of the all-time great capitalists, thought it was critically important to pay his workers as much as he could, because that's what grew his market to sell even more cars into.

This is why the drive to outsource jobs and drive down salaries has never made any sense to me. It speaks volumes of the shortsightedness of the people who run big businesses.

I heard someone on the radio a week ago mention that the shortsightedness of the "job creators" could be summed up by their actions in the last 20+ years. That being that the 1% didn't think they should pay the 99, but that they were perfectly willing to lend them money.

Malor wrote:

I think there's a lot of pride that should be taken in being the people that actually make the world's wealth. But it's pretty disgusting that the workers don't get a little larger share of the pie.

Henry Ford, one of the all-time great capitalists, thought it was critically important to pay his workers as much as he could, because that's what grew his market to sell even more cars into.

Yeah but that was before easily obtainable credit existed. I mean the AMEX and line of credit you just got could buy you iPads for years and really, it's basically free money right? ...right?

Kraint wrote:
Malor wrote:

Henry Ford, one of the all-time great capitalists, thought it was critically important to pay his workers as much as he could, because that's what grew his market to sell even more cars into.

This is why the drive to outsource jobs and drive down salaries has never made any sense to me. It speaks volumes of the shortsightedness of the people who run big businesses.

China might be a different situation. The middle class is large enough and incomes in general are rising fast enough that no one really needs to care about taking care of the ones making the devices to make good profits for years to come. And to be honest, the difference between living at Foxconn and living in the countryside where you might not have clean water, 24h electricity, proper (or any) healthcare means that for many workers, Foxconn is a nicer place to be.

Regarding taking pride in manufacturing the world's wealth. It's hard to take pride when that is all you do are known for and are pretty fairly stereotyped for copying everyone else. The ability to design and innovate isn't just thought of more highly, it's worth more too--just look at the profits Apple makes off of design and innovation. Hundreds of companies in China would love to be the country's first Apple.

Kraint wrote:
Malor wrote:

Henry Ford, one of the all-time great capitalists, thought it was critically important to pay his workers as much as he could, because that's what grew his market to sell even more cars into.

This is why the drive to outsource jobs and drive down salaries has never made any sense to me. It speaks volumes of the shortsightedness of the people who run big businesses.

It just highlights the fact that big businesses are transnational in nature these days. They might have offices in the US, but they really don't care what happens here (unless they're lobbying Congress) because they're getting more of their revenues and profits from overseas. Why should they give a crap if someone from the Midwest doesn't have a job and can't buy their products when there's a million new Chinese or Brazilian consumers with money burning a hole in their pockets?

OG_slinger wrote:
Kraint wrote:
Malor wrote:

Henry Ford, one of the all-time great capitalists, thought it was critically important to pay his workers as much as he could, because that's what grew his market to sell even more cars into.

This is why the drive to outsource jobs and drive down salaries has never made any sense to me. It speaks volumes of the shortsightedness of the people who run big businesses.

It just highlights the fact that big businesses are transnational in nature these days. They might have offices in the US, but they really don't care what happens here (unless they're lobbying Congress) because they're getting more of their revenues and profits from overseas. Why should they give a crap if someone from the Midwest doesn't have a job and can't buy their products when there's a million new Chinese or Brazilian consumers with money burning a hole in their pockets?

Funny you should mention that.

My brother in law and I were watching the Superbowl last night and he informed me that Hyundai was a major sponsor of the Superbowl. I told him that was unsurprising. He replied that it wasn't either considering that Hyundai was now "practically an American company" since so much of its major international decision making is done in the US. He said it with a barely detectable amount of regret because Koreans take such pride in things Korean.

Had to toss this in. So after the laughable Nightline "iFactory" report and an expected but particularly verbose defense of Apple and indeed Foxconn by professional fanboy non-journalist David Pogue, Mike Daisey from the original This American Life report takes him to task on his blog. He links off to Pogue's article which frustrated me so much I could barely get through it. Being incredibly biased towards one company you've been hired to do work for is bad enough but to downplay what the people in China go through to make the stuff that fuels that conflict of interest is disgusting. The New York Times should be ashamed for continuing to have him on their payroll, he's an embarrassment to journalism.

So it was just revealed that chunks of Mike Daisey's story were fabricated and This American Life is retracting it.

They are doing a special episode tonight devoted to coming clean about it and pointing out all the errors. They seem to be trying to do the right thing but sadly, I feel this subject matter will drive a vocal group to see that they are destroyed online. The timing of this announcement is also highly suspicious to me because it's iPad 3 launch day. To be honest though, I think it's more suspicious of the show itself because rather than this being a sign of them bowing to corporate pressure, I think they're trying to put it out today so that the iPad 3 launch news will hopefully bury the story.

Mike Daisey seems to be retreating into the "this wasn't journalism, it was theatre" defence which I frankly don't buy and I hope he's ashamed of himself as he should be. My opinion on Apple as a company (as well as its rabid fanbase) is very clear but you don't get a contradictory message heard by framing it in lies.

That said, there have been investigations since his report and there are still major problems in a number of Chinese factories which are partnered with both Apple and a lot of other companies. That this one account of it has errors doesn't mean the underlying problem doesn't exist and I really hope that the iCult doesn't see that this major issue for everyone doesn't get buried in a cloud of "SEE! One guy lied so clearly Apple can never do wrong!" This American Life screwed up but they did the right thing and I hope the company they chose to target doesn't end up seeing them damaged more than if it was someone else.

I don't think anybody believes that the situation in places like Foxconn is good. The general objection I hear from "the iCult" is that conditions relating to Apple's contracts are at worst no more egregious than anyone else's, and at best Apple has been doing a lot of looking into things because of the publicity created by things like that story.

From what I've read so far, the lies appear to be that Daisey personally met the people in question. People were indeed poisoned, for instance, but Daisey didn't meet them himself. There could be more to it, but this is all I've been able to determine as of right now.

The sad part is that his mendacity in this area will probably be used to try to cover up the very real abuses that are going on. His play may end up doing more harm than good.

All he had to do was tell TAL that it wasn't literally true, that it was a fictionalized play based on real conditions, and then TAL could have gone and found out for themselves, and spoken with the workers directly.

Idiot.

Indeed. Hopefully the media approaches this with a bit of self-restraint. I read that article and things like "the poisoning of a worker happened in a different Apple factory" don't really strike me as hugely important. It's a lie or exaggeration or whatever, but the fundamentals are still true.

Hypatian wrote:

I don't think anybody believes that the situation in places like Foxconn is good. The general objection I hear from "the iCult" is that conditions relating to Apple's contracts are at worst no more egregious than anyone else's, and at best Apple has been doing a lot of looking into things because of the publicity created by things like that story.

My argument has always been that Apple can and should be using their pulpit as the world's largest and most admired company to do more about this problem and though they've done some more since the story, I still don't think they (or anyone else) is doing enough. My hope is that this won't take the pressure off them and that consumers will continue to demand better from them, rather than just thinking this issue is no longer important because one guy stretched the truth. There may not be a lot of people out there who think the situation is good but before this, there were a great many who were happy to assume there was no issue because no one brought it up.

I should also point out that when I reference "iCult", I don't mean people who just like Apple products in general. I mean the rabid and very vocal fanboys who I've already seen popping up on Twitter and other places and who don't represent the majority of people who buy their stuff.

I expanded my opinion a bit more in a blog post if anyone's interested.

We'll have to see what TAL does, but since they're kinda throwing themselves on their collective sword, I suspect we'll find out what they can actually determine about working conditions in China.

I think while it's fair to point out that Apple is not the only one having products made in China, it is most certainly the only one worth about as much as the rest of the US retail sector combined. When you are that big, you shouldn't be surprised when you're the one getting picked on, nor do I think it's unreasonable to expect a greater level of leadership from you.

Analyzing the work environment in China is complex and requires context, but at this point Apple is worth more than the GDP of all but 18 countries in the world, so one might say it's time [warning bad pun ahead] to move from safety nets on the sides of buildings to safety nets that provide healthcare, better work hours, salaries, overtime, etc.

I just listened to the TAL episode as it ran here locally on WBEZ, the NPR station that provides management oversight for Ira and his crew. I have to say, I'm shocked this story was allowed on the air.

Daisey admitted to lying and covering up the identity of his translator in China, the only other witness to the interviews he conducted there, because he was afraid that TAL would speak to her and discover that he had bent the truth and, in my opinion, lied to TAL's audience. He looks back with hindsight repeatedly and says that he wishes TAL would have killed the story before it aired. When asked if he had lied to the audience, after a long pause, he repeats his desire that TAL would have killed the story. It's just too much to bear.

I'm left with the feeling that Daisey is a megalomaniac, so convinced by the narrative that he's formed in his mind's eye that he is oblivious to the factual truths he comitted to on air. Did he meet a 12 year old employee like he states? No. Did he meet a crippled man who pawed at his iPad dumbstruck "because he had never seen on of the products he made turned on before"? No.

Ira even left the door open, allowed him to return to his studio and continue his act of contrition. Instead Daisey stood proud and tall and espoused, and I quote, "I wouldn't say, in a theatrical context, that this [story] wasn't true." That doesn't even make any sense!

The man is completely bonkers. TAL should be, and is by the tone and timber of this episode, ashamed at themselves and how they've damaged themselves and their sister shows and syndicating affiliates.

In the end, 9 minutes of airtime were devoted to the actual, factual and corroborated instances of disasters and poor working conditions independently observed in Apple plants. Still damning to Apple, but all rather dated. We need to lower the temperature on the tar and get real here folks. TAL done f*cked up and things are murkey at this point.

I heard this story live, sat in the driveway rapt while Daisey breathlessly finished presenting it to his live audience, noted my own jaw on the floor as it was played back over local radio. I feel suckered. As a pledging member of WBEZ I feel sick.

TheWanderer wrote:

In the end, 9 minutes of airtime were devoted to the actual, factual and corroborated instances of disasters and poor working conditions independently observed in Apple plants. Still damning to Apple, but all rather dated. We need to lower the temperature on the tar and get real here folks. TAL done f*cked up and things are murkey at this point.

I completely agree they f*cked up (though they at least did the right thing about it by owning it) but it should be noted that there's been a number of other reports since his story including one by the New York Times that have not been called into question. Daisey stretched the truth, he should be ashamed of himself (though he amazingly doesn't seem to be) but this is no sign that there isn't a major problem over there, which Apple is one contributor to. The worst thing that could happen from this debacle is for people to treat it as a reason to assume the problems never exited in the first place because that is simply not true.