The stigma of female beauty in male-dominated pursuits

A conversation on twitter inspired this post.

Jessica Chobat was recently featured in a video on voice actors in Mass Effect 3. Some of the twitter conversation began to turn to why Ms. Chobat was in this role, and whether she had earned it, or merely received it as a result of her beauty. This led me to think about whether being attractive tends to trigger negative reactions in male-dominated pursuits, like gaming, or comedy. I honestly don't follow Ms. Chobat's work at all, and hadn't even heard of her before she got the gig on ME3, but I can think of any number of other attractive women who have been stigmatized as 'getting the job because of their looks' - Jade Raymond, Leigh Alexander and Olivia Munn all spring to mind.

Am I imagining the blowback, or is this a legit issue? Is it worse in niche areas like gaming, or do I just notice it more because I spend a lot of time in the gaming world?

It may be that attractive women face "blowback" because of their looks, but it could be that all women are liable to face blowback and remarks about looks are just the form it sometimes takes rather than a major causal factor. We wouldn't want to ignore the plight of the non-beautiful, who in general have it a lot worse than the beautiful.

I have never played Mass Effect or seen the TV program Chobot is on(?). I don't think voice actors particularly need to be gamers or have geek cred. If you do hold that view, though, you might be disappointed that a TV personality got the role. TV personalities of both sexes are strongly selected for looks, and there is at least a widespread notion that this is especially true for "gaming" TV.

Considering how misogynistic gamers can be, I wouldn't be surprised if it rears it's ugly head more often in the gaming world. I'm probably not the best judge though, I try to completely ignore the non-GWJ gaming world as best I can.

I'm the one that brought this up in the ME3 thread after watching the voice cast trailer. I jumped on the whole hate train thing way to fast. The only thing I know about her is that Hildon of DGRadio ranted about the whole getting a job by taking a picture while licking a PSP. Other than that, I have no idea if she's competent at her job. I definitely don't know enough about her to be making any serious comments. I originally just made the comment to see if anyone would get the DGRadio reference. It probably wasn't the best of ideas.

I really don't know if this whole issue is worse than in any other areas of life. I think it just gets a lot more attention because it's a bit less common and gamers tend to be pretty loud on the internet.

Tanglebones wrote:

A conversation on twitter inspired this post.

Jessica Chobat was recently featured in a video on voice actors in Mass Effect 3. Some of the twitter conversation began to turn to why Ms. Chobat was in this role, and whether she had earned it, or merely received it as a result of her beauty. This led me to think about whether being attractive tends to trigger negative reactions in male-dominated pursuits, like gaming, or comedy. I honestly don't follow Ms. Chobat's work at all, and hadn't even heard of her before she got the gig on ME3, but I can think of any number of other attractive women who have been stigmatized as 'getting the job because of their looks' - Jade Raymond, Leigh Alexander and Olivia Munn all spring to mind.

Am I imagining the blowback, or is this a legit issue? Is it worse in niche areas like gaming, or do I just notice it more because I spend a lot of time in the gaming world?

Here's my 2 cents. Those of us in our 30s-ish grew up when our pursuits were pretty much our domain solely. Men played NBA basketball and thus former players and coaches were announcers and sidelines reporters. Men loved sports so men anchored SportsCenter.

When female sideline reporters, ESPN anchors and analysts first showed up it was a bit confusing. And, for better or worse, your initial thought was almost always whether or not she was qualified to do the job. I'm not saying I think that way now, but I'm copping to how my young mind worked in high school and early college. I'm positive I'm not alone. It felt like affirmative action or trying too hard to appeal to a different demographic. It just rubbed you the wrong way because you could immediately think of a bunch of talented athletes who were just as deserving of calling the action or anchoring ESPN shows.

Slowly, though, as this faded you begin to start picking out the bad male announcers and the good female announcers and hopefully at some point you just have pros who are doing their job and are either good at it or not.

I feel like the video games industry operates similarly. It's a club that was largely the domain of boys and men when we were young. Even if this isn't true, in terms of who many of us spent time with it was true. Same process. A female community manager, a female video game journalist is going to initially be suspect because you wonder to yourself why they want to be part of this club. If they're truly "one of "us, etc. I'm not saying that's right. I'm not saying I personally think that way now. But I believe that's part of where this comes from. You have a hobby, interest or even a career that's largely male and when it changes you're going to question what changed. Did women suddenly become knowledgable about basketball? Do they suddenly care about games? Are they suddenly interested in software engineering.

I think it's natural as these things shake out. Eventually that goes away and is largely replaced by whether or not the person is competent, full stop. But I don't think it's unnatural for some people to question why someone outside of a given demographic wants to join your gang.

EDIT: Oh, and I firmly believe that the earlier in this process you are the more people are suspicious. So, once again, at this point a female software engineer or sidelines reporters is a common occurrence and it just is. Gaming being a little more recent to women breaking into the industry means that you're going to have people who assume it's a gimmick or a way to get ratings. Liking a PSP provocatively is probably not a great well to dispel the notion that you got your job as a gimmick. But it doesn't mean she isn't qualified to do what she's doing.

Is she a notably crappy voice actress? If so, given the quality of Bioware's usual casting efforts, then there might be some substance to the accusation. Otherwise, if she's good, then it's probably stupid and wrong.

I know she hosts the IGN spotlight thing that's on XBL, but I'm not aware of any other acting work she's done.

Well my issue with the Chobot thing is the fact that she's hosting stuff for IGN or G4 or whoever, doing interviews about ME3, as a journalist... when she's in the game! Unethical, favoritism, bias, whatever you want to call it.

It's like when Troy Aikman is the color commentator for Dallas Cowboys games. I want to call FOX and complain every single time. He's biased, and it bleeds through every game.

As for the general topic, yeah there can be some issues. Why is it always an attractive female doing the sideline reporting? Especially when a lot of those reports are focused on injuries, or interviewing players and coaches... wouldn't a former player have more insight into those things? I don't really understand the logic behind some of these things.

Stele wrote:

Well my issue with the Chobot thing is the fact that she's hosting stuff for IGN or G4 or whoever, doing interviews about ME3, as a journalist... when she's in the game! Unethical, favoritism, bias, whatever you want to call it.

It's like when Troy Aikman is the color commentator for Dallas Cowboys games. I want to call FOX and complain every single time. He's biased, and it bleeds through every game.

As for the general topic, yeah there can be some issues. Why is it always an attractive female doing the sideline reporting? Especially when a lot of those reports are focused on injuries, or interviewing players and coaches... wouldn't a former player have more insight into those things? I don't really understand the logic behind some of these things.

As a baseball fan, I can categorically state that I have no interest in what 99% of former baseball players have to say about the game. Fran Healy, while a decent backup catcher, was one of the worst announcers I've ever had the privilege of being forced to listen to.

I think that something funny happens when we encounter a person whose attractiveness draws our interest independently of her other attributes. It puts us in the situation of forming an opinion on someone based on very limited knowledge, a process contextualized by the original impetus to go click on that Kotaku article (her attractiveness). As a result, we often do some weird calculus involving her perceived attractiveness versus her perceived worthiness of our attention and use that ratio to decide whether to idolize her or denigrate her. In effect: 'I am interested in her because of how hot she is, but should I be interested in her?' If yes, it's because she is a super cool talented person who also happens to be attractive; if not, it's because she's some kind of slut who used her attractiveness to mislead me into fixating on her despite my deeming her unworthy of fixation (because clearly it isn't my fault for allowing my hormones to think for me).

-Ooh, she's hot! I am going to watch this video!
-I didn't particularly enjoy that video.
-Then why did I click on her video and not that stocky nerd man's video? And why am I now watching twenty more of her videos?
-Because she is some kind of evil temptress! TO THE COMMENT SECTION!

So why does Felicia Day receive general praise and Jade Raymond more of a mixed response? In my (totally unfounded, pop-psychology) opinion it's because we experience Day's acting/writing in a very direct way, while Raymond's role as a producer is not so easily understood. Some people see Jade Raymond, become very interested in her, decide from what little they've learned that she is not worthy of the irrational amount of attention with which they bestowed her, and then blame her for it.

This is all informed by the usual suspects: Male privilege, misogyny, sexism, double standards and whatnot.

Tanglebones wrote:

Am I imagining the blowback, or is this a legit issue? Is it worse in niche areas like gaming, or do I just notice it more because I spend a lot of time in the gaming world?

You're misundertsanding the issue. Video games, comics, etc, are dominated by men who don't understand women. Sorry guys. It's true in the general sense. Pretty sure even the tiny minority of ladies who post here will back that up.

So it's easy to see where a community that has seen, collectively, maybe 4 vaginas in real life would be threatened by attractive women who show no actual talent for the genre. Guys in this field may not have women, but they have money to spend on some of the biggest entertainment genres in the world. It's no surprise that might feel exploited by a woman like Olivia Munn who is beautiful but is clearly riding a wave of nerd obsession to make it into the 1%.

4xis.black wrote:

So why does Felicia Day receive general praise and Jade Raymond more of a mixed response? In my (totally unfounded, pop-psychology) opinion it's because we experience Day's acting/writing in a very direct way, while Raymond's role as a producer is not so easily understood. Some people see Jade Raymond, become very interested in her, decide from what little they've learned that she is not worthy of the irrational amount of attention with which they bestowed her, and then blame her for it.

As to this part of your post I think that Felicia Day, while attractive, looks like a nerd. She is a non threatening woman. Jade Raymond looks sexy and intimidating.

NathanialG wrote:
4xis.black wrote:

So why does Felicia Day receive general praise and Jade Raymond more of a mixed response? In my (totally unfounded, pop-psychology) opinion it's because we experience Day's acting/writing in a very direct way, while Raymond's role as a producer is not so easily understood. Some people see Jade Raymond, become very interested in her, decide from what little they've learned that she is not worthy of the irrational amount of attention with which they bestowed her, and then blame her for it.

As to this part of your post I think that Felicia Day, while attractive, looks like a nerd. She is a non threatening woman. Jade Raymond looks sexy and intimidating.

I think that's pretty much right on.

Felicia Day looks like the type that would cosplay at a convention. Jade Raymond looks like the type that would answer questions at a panel discussion and leave as soon as humanly possible.

Jade Raymond is a really good example of the misogyny the general gaming public shows towards women. From everything I've read, she's an exceptional producer and shepherded several high profile projects like Assassin's Creed to success. Now she's in charge of Ubisoft's new Toronto studio. But when Assassin's Creed was getting hyped, she was put out as the spokesperson for it and all everyone talked about was how she looked and how she must have used her looks to get where she was. There was a really nasty web comic made about that if I recall. I think that's disgusting.

The discussion Tanglebones is referring to was one that began from the announcement that Jessica Chobot had been cast in Mass Effect 3. From everything I've read about Chobot, she is someone who used her looks to get where she is. She became a host and "staff writer" for IGN, despite having no previous experience and got the gig because of a photo of her licking a PSP. Since then, she got cast in Mass Effect 3 (despite also having no voice acting experience), even though she was covering the game for IGN and G4. There's a write-up about all of that here. Now we can have a whole other discussion about the massive conflict of interest and lack of journalistic integrity that symbolises. Honestly, she might play her role in ME3 well (it isn't super hard since all the voice work in those games is super flat). That she's in it doesn't inherently bother me. What frustrates me about Chobot from a bigger perspective is that unlike Jade Raymond, she did use solely her looks to get where she is. Even that in and of itself doesn't bother me, if you have a trait about you that can get you a job you want, you should use it.

What I find ridiculous about her is that she constantly whines on panels about how no one takes her seriously and that it's because she's a hot woman. I find that hypocrisy to be really ridiculous. She's not Jade Raymond or Leigh Alexander, who actually have talent and ability and happen to be attractive. If you get into a field with no training, knowledge or expertise and almost proudly proclaim you did it because of your looks, then don't complain when people point out that's what you did. There are lots of TV and online personalities out there who trade on their appearance but most of them understand the role they've chosen and don't bemoan themselves to be some kind of misunderstood artists. She's very fortunate to have had the combination of looks and timing that got her into an industry she loves and that's good for her. But she's well aware of how she got there and faulting people for point that out is dumb.

I think gaming culture does have a big problem with how women are portrayed and often not given the respect they deserve. But I think Jessica Chobot in particular is an example of where that problem originates. Her trading solely on her looks and then complaining no one takes her seriously does nothing to help overcome the stigma that truly talented women in this industry still have to deal with. That doesn't make the problems continued existence right or any less deplorable, it just makes it all the more clear how systemic the issue is.

Seth wrote:
Tanglebones wrote:

Am I imagining the blowback, or is this a legit issue? Is it worse in niche areas like gaming, or do I just notice it more because I spend a lot of time in the gaming world?

You're misundertsanding the issue. Video games, comics, etc, are dominated by men who don't understand women. Sorry guys. It's true in the general sense. Pretty sure even the tiny minority of ladies who post here will back that up.

So it's easy to see where a community that has seen, collectively, maybe 4 vaginas in real life would be threatened by attractive women who show no actual talent for the genre. Guys in this field may not have women, but they have money to spend on some of the biggest entertainment genres in the world. It's no surprise that might feel exploited by a woman like Olivia Munn who is beautiful but is clearly riding a wave of nerd obsession to make it into the 1%.

I hung with you for your first paragraph, but the second very definitely lost me in its first sentence.

If nothing else, the entire community's vagina count could be boosted solely by Coldstream, me, and Mex. Sometimes I see 4 vaginas a day.

I still have no idea why they gave that job to Jessica Chobits but if they were just looking for a pretty face I can't imagine she was their first choice. I don't mean that as a knock on her appearance so much as a knock on her notoriety.

That aside, I've heard that while attractive women sometimes make more money than plain women, they have a harder time getting people to take them seriously. People assume they rode their looks to success, and that they have nothing else to offer.

LarryC wrote:

If nothing else, the entire community's vagina count could be boosted solely by Coldstream, me, and Mex. Sometimes I see 4 vaginas a day.

Dammit, you're a doctor, not a gamer.

I think that a lot of the examples discussed upthread are comparing apples to aircraft carriers.

Chobot works in video broadcasting, a field where (for better or worse) attractiveness is a key qualifier. We could head down the rabbithole of why it's more key for female broadcasters than male, but I'm going to sidestep that for the time being.

Jade Raymond is almost the polar opposite - the attractiveness of a videogame producer has near-zero impact on their ability to do their job. The way I see it, she's a special case, where by dint of her being attractive, she was given (of chose to take on) more of a PR role, and that's where the lines started to blur.

First, I don't think it's fair to judge the gaming community at large by GWJ. With the exception of me, this is an alarmingly mature and thoughtful bastion of gaming culture that I don't think accurately reflects a group of people that invented dickwolves.

Parralax Abstraction made my point 100% perfectly.

Seth wrote:

First, I don't think it's fair to judge the gaming community at large by GWJ. With the exception of me, this is an alarmingly mature and thoughtful bastion of gaming culture that I don't think accurately reflects a group of people that invented dickwolves.

Parralax Abstraction made my point 100% perfectly.

But it's okay to judge the entire gaming community at large? As being losers who "haven't seen more than 4 vaginas in their lives"? Seriously, that was kind of crazy. And not terribly helpful to the discussion. Women are definitely treated differently. I tried to give a more nuanced explanation about why I thought this way.

Your response was that gamers are largely losers who are uncomfortable around women.

I've seen at least six vaginas in real life.

DSGamer wrote:

Your response was that gamers are largely losers who are uncomfortable around women.

Yikes, just take the compliment that I like this community more than any other gaming community.

If nothing else, the entire community's vagina count could be boosted solely by Coldstream, me, and Mex. Sometimes I see 4 vaginas a day.

I think we're showing admirable restraint here, gentleman.

Podunk wrote:

I've seen at least six vaginas in real life.

Cows don't count.

farley3k wrote:
Podunk wrote:

I've seen at least six vaginas in real life.

Cows don't count.

Considering the topic of the thread.... *rimshot*?

farley3k wrote:
Podunk wrote:

I've seen at least six vaginas in real life.

Cows don't count.

Cows have six vaginas? I knew about the four stomachs thing, but this is news.

Jonman wrote:
farley3k wrote:
Podunk wrote:

I've seen at least six vaginas in real life.

Cows don't count.

Cows have six vaginas? I knew about the four stomachs thing, but this is news.

Opossums have two. True story.

Does the opposite situation ever occur? Do attractive men break into female dominated pursuits and get judged for it as well? Is it possible this isn't an attractive female issue so much as judging what appears to be an outsider, as DSGamer was suggesting?

gregrampage wrote:

Does the opposite situation ever occur? Do attractive men break into female dominated pursuits and get judged for it as well? Is it possible this isn't an attractive female issue so much as judging what appears to be an outsider, as DSGamer was suggesting?

It happens but the women don't mind because the guys are usually gay.

I base this gross generalization on HG TV.

Tanglebones wrote:

I honestly don't follow Ms. Chobat's work at all, and hadn't even heard of her before she got the gig on ME3, but I can think of any number of other attractive women who have been stigmatized as 'getting the job because of their looks'

If I recall correctly, 'getting the job because of their looks' is true in the case of Chobot. I'm pretty sure she's the one that got the job at IGN because of a picture of her licking a PSP. If her work on podcasts is any indication, I can't imagine she got the Mass Effect job because of the strength of her voice work.