How could American culture grow so corrupt as to value a game over protecting children?

So I really hope to God this is a vicious rumor or sensationalized story - because I'm hearing rumors that Sandusky was running a child sex slave ring for wealthy and powerful donors to his Second Mile scholarship.

Like I said, I really hope this doesn't turn out to be true.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/1...

Let the insane witch hunt begin!

Is the insane witch hunt the investigating a serial child rapist's involvement with a charity that worked with vulnerable children? If so, it doesn't really strengthen the "Be reasonable!" argument.

That sort of depends on the nature of the investigation. If, as in the past, it consists of police investigators rounding up every child associated with the charity and questioning them for hours (without their parents or guardians present) until they get the responses they prefer, it certainly does get a little bit crazy.

Some of the people who investigate cases like this have, in the past, been known to come up with such things as 'leap frog', an activity in which a room full of naked children form a circle in the 'leap frog' position and are sequentially penetrated. It is unclear whether they came up with these on their own and pitched them to the kids during interviews or whether it was a collaborative effort between the leading questions and the kids' imaginations, but evidence and sanity in general suggest 'leap frog' was never actually practiced in the particular case of which I speak. (They also used hypnosis to attempt to expose the 'repressed memories' of these children, which may have had the unexpected effect of convincing one kid that 'leap frog' actually happened to him when, in fact, it did not. I don't think they would do that anymore, as psychology has since concluded that it was a monumentally stupid idea.) You might check out the documentary 'Capturing the Freidmans' for a more in-depth explanation of all this.

The point is that stuff like this can get out of hand very quickly if you allow it to. The combination of righteous zeal on the part of the prosecutors, widespread public hysteria, and lack of substantial physical evidence is dangerous.

jdzappa wrote:

So I really hope to God this is a vicious rumor or sensationalized story - because I'm hearing rumors that Sandusky was running a child sex slave ring for wealthy and powerful donors to his Second Mile scholarship.

Like I said, I really hope this doesn't turn out to be true.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/1...

I heard there were secret tunnels under the Penn State campus where even more deviant stuff took place.

Jayhawker wrote:
jdzappa wrote:

So I really hope to God this is a vicious rumor or sensationalized story - because I'm hearing rumors that Sandusky was running a child sex slave ring for wealthy and powerful donors to his Second Mile scholarship.

Like I said, I really hope this doesn't turn out to be true.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/1...

I heard there were secret tunnels under the Penn State campus where even more deviant stuff took place.

Yeah. Folks should please note carefully the sources in the provided link. They are not credible.

"this story is gonna break ANY SECOND now!" -- never materialized.

OG_slinger wrote:

Make sure kids weren't getting raped in his locker rooms?

That is why he had minions.

4xis.black wrote:

Things.

Yeah, I'm familiar with the repressed memories thing, and the Capturing the Friedmans situation. Two things: 1- so is everyone else, hence why investigations are very careful these days, and 2- the Friedman situation is in the 20 to 30 years old range.

It's just kinda frustrating seeing these wails and gnashings of teeth over being fair and reasoned and factual even as one hand shifts around the targets--Sandusky didn't really work for the program, he just mysteriously retired after seeming to be next in line for head coach, and had an office and continued to use the facilities and do recruiting sometimes, so that's not really working, see, because he was retired, and whatever the case, Joey did his due diligence because when he heard about the 2002 incident, he reported it to someone who wasn't empowered to conduct an investigation, so see, he reported it, and why suddenly to the actions of a powerful head coach with a long association and a storied career with a reputation for being extremely tight-fisted and informed reflect on the program he spent decades creating?--and the other hand makes passive-aggressive little snipes about witch-hunting based on memes old enough to seem quaint when they came up in episodes of The X-Files. Fair ought to be fair--only levy criticisms against the investigation that can be backed-up with specifics.

Like I said, this is the insidious nature of sex crimes--it's all to easy to ignore them (like Joey did), or to attack the victims, and it's much easier to do that when the accused are powerful and beloved.

There's a story on CNNSI about the scandal; basically a summing-up of things. Nothing particularly new, but it's all condensed into one spot.

Internet posting pointed to Sandusky

Investigators with the Pennsylvania attorney general's office — who were already convinced Sandusky was a serial molester — were alerted to an Internet forum posting that mentioned a Penn Statefootball coach had kept silent about abuse he had witnessed years earlier, sources told the newspaper.

The posting, on a forum where people chatted about Penn State athletics, allowed them to draw up a list of coaches likely to have seen something, which in turn led them to Penn State's wide receivers coach Mike McQueary.

Investigators set up a meeting in a parking lot a little over a year ago, the newspaper reported, at which McQueary unburdened himself about having witnessed a 10-year-old boy being raped by Sandusky in 2002.

Also Wednesday, Penn State campus police and their counterparts in State College said they had no record of McQueary reporting an alleged sexual assault by Jerry Sandusky on a 10-year-old boy in a campus shower.

The details ran counter to McQueary's claims in an email to former teammates and made available to The Associated Press this week.

It looks more and more like McQueary is getting an immunity deal to be a witness.

MilkmanDanimal wrote:

There's a story on CNNSI about the scandal; basically a summing-up of things. Nothing particularly new, but it's all condensed into one spot.

That was a tough read.

SallyNasty wrote:
MilkmanDanimal wrote:

There's a story on CNNSI about the scandal; basically a summing-up of things. Nothing particularly new, but it's all condensed into one spot.

That was a tough read.

Agreed. Also after reading it I think I'm backing off my stance to only punish individuals and not the entire program. Their really does seem to be a systemic issue of protecting their image, as opposed to isolated individuals making that decision.

That was a very good article. Thanks for sharing it. I hope my ardent pleas for a hold on judgement until the facts are in don't cloud the fact that I believe anyone who stayed silent or protected Sandusky needs to pay. There are more details in that article than I knew before and aside from some odd quirks (like calling the "We Are Penn State" cheer some form of righteous insular arrogance) it felt fair overall. Especially about the questions that need to be asked. Even though I might not like the answers (although I don't assume all of them are bad), the answers need to be found and used to right those wrongs and ensure they don't happen again.

I admit, I am latching onto that leaked McQueary email in the hope that it proves Joe thought the police were involved, but it's hearsay and we'll have to wait a long time to find out what the facts really are.

Here is a great interview Rat Boy referenced in the NCAA thread as well, if you're looking for more reasonable reactions to the whole scandal.

I still think it was the right decision to fire the university president and Paterno for letting things get this far.

doh ... South Park wasted no time jumping on this story. Last night's episode was on the PSU scandal.

NSFW language

H.P. Lovesauce wrote:

I still think it was the right decision to fire the university president and Paterno for letting things get this far.

I agree with you. Despite my personal wish to refrain from rushing to judgement, the university has to act in it's own self interest. It just saddens me that Paterno is thrown out unceremoniously while Curley, Schultz, and Sandusky keep their pensions. I'm not calling on anyone to remove their pensions, I just wish we could afford the same protections for those accused by the public that the law affords to those accused in a court of law.

This is completely aside from the actions an organization has to take when confronted with witness accounts against someone they trust. That's something I have a hard time wrapping my mind around: when does valid concern trump an individual's rights outside of a court of law? It is obvious in this case that an eye-witness account by grad assistant should have caused immediate action. It's making me think of the other case I linked about an accusation against a different professor. And just in general.

Interesting editorial about Penn State from the president emeritus of UNLV.

Spanier did many splendid things for PSU as president. But his Achilles’ heel, or tragic flaw, or whatever one calls this sad professional demise, is surely a product of the “football culture” that has so dominated major university life nationwide and seems to get more out-of-control every day.

When presidents count on wins on the field at any cost, actively keeping other good programs out of the structure and counting on the revenues athletic programs produce to support university programs, thereby becoming beholden to coaches — even iconic ones — and their staffs, we are bound to face impossible moral choices and tragedies such as those that happened to many children over a long period of time in the belly of the football empire at Pennsylvania State University.

What more do we need to change our ways and treat football (or basketball) as important and wonderful parts of our academic enterprises, but not as the be-all and end-all of university and college life?

Well it's not PSU or Paterno but this one hits a bit closer to home.

http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.s...

There is an allegation that Boehiem may have known they shared a room but was never notified of any alleged abuse until the 2005 claim.

I really hope this isn't true ...........

Bear wrote:

Well it's not PSU or Paterno but this one hits a bit closer to home.

http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.s...

There is an allegation that Boehiem may have known they shared a room but was never notified of any alleged abuse until the 2005 claim.

I really hope this isn't true ...........

Good god. Someone said this earlier. Maybe a different thread. That it's possible this is more prevalent.

DSGamer wrote:
Bear wrote:

Well it's not PSU or Paterno but this one hits a bit closer to home.

http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.s...

There is an allegation that Boehiem may have known they shared a room but was never notified of any alleged abuse until the 2005 claim.

I really hope this isn't true ...........

Good god. Someone said this earlier. Maybe a different thread. That it's possible this is more prevalent.

Think back to the dickwolves thread about women being sexually assaulted. Remember when everyone was shocked and surprised about the amount of people around them that had been affected? Now imagine male-on-male sexual assaults. How much do you want to bet that there is even less reporting of those crimes. There is a reason why male spousal abuse is under reported.

Mark Kreidler at ESPN expressing thought's similar to mine currently.

Note: This scandal is different from the duke lacrosse scandal in MANY ways, including the charges being brought before the scandal broke and number of apparent witnesses. The only connection being drawn is the outrage before facts are known and what appears to be the main witness contradicting what appears to be testimony.

DSGamer wrote:
Bear wrote:

Well it's not PSU or Paterno but this one hits a bit closer to home.

http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.s...

There is an allegation that Boehiem may have known they shared a room but was never notified of any alleged abuse until the 2005 claim.

I really hope this isn't true ...........

Good god. Someone said this earlier. Maybe a different thread. That it's possible this is more prevalent.

While I don't doubt this is more prevalent...this case sounds pretty thin. At least from this article here:
http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/...

Edit: Apparently that article has been edited since I first read it. There were other parts in it that shed a lot of doubt on the case, for example the guy's own mother saying he wasn't at the final four in New Orleans.

Someone just showed me this, I thought it was kinda topical (Posted as Jeff-66's link is US-only):

http://www.southparkstudios.com/clip...

The most recent episode of This American Life is about Penn State — the scandal, the football culture there, and individual reactions. It does a good job of showing the nuance and breadth of locals' responses to what's happening there, and is a fine refutation to the OP's statement that all anyone cares about there is football, while not pulling any punches.

One of Sandusky's victims apparently had to leave his high school after being harassed by some students. Oy.

MilkmanDanimal wrote:

One of Sandusky's victims apparently had to leave his high school after being harassed by some students. Oy.

A sister to one of the victims is a Penn State student and people were joking around her (unknowingly) about the scandal. Some people are just asshats.

The riots/support for Joe Pa during the beginning of the scandal are one thing, the letter from the former football players supporting him now is...just really poor taste, in my opinion.

Penn State lost in the Ticketcity Bowl today, 30-14.

Does anyone care anymore that Penn State still has a football program active and even participating in bowls?

CheezePavilion wrote:

Penn State lost in the Ticketcity Bowl today, 30-14.

Does anyone care anymore that Penn State still has a football program active and even participating in bowls?

I asked the same about the McRib being gone back on November 14th, and got the same silent response. The world seems to move on after a time. Evil football programs and lack of McRibs notwithstanding.

LouZiffer wrote:
CheezePavilion wrote:

Penn State lost in the Ticketcity Bowl today, 30-14.

Does anyone care anymore that Penn State still has a football program active and even participating in bowls?

I asked the same about the McRib being gone back on November 14th, and got the same silent response. The world seems to move on after a time. Evil football programs and lack of McRibs notwithstanding

Just the other day took me until I could get close enough to read the text to notice the same red sign that once announced the McRib was here and how much now was just another Bic Mac ad.

I was thinking about this when the scandal broke. How long would Penn State football continue to be a flashpoint. It doesn't even seem to have made it past bowl season. It's a lesson in PR management, and I don't mean that in a slick, sleazy, "I know the mayor of Boston" kind of way (although that's on my mind too.) Simply in a "we want to do the right thing, but the right thing is not necessarily something as scorched earth as what the public is demanding right here in the heart of the scandal when emotions are running at their highest."

I'm not saying any measure that could prevent a re-occurrence shouldn't be taken. Of course everything to make sure this never happens again should be done. Everyone who was responsible should get the max when it comes to their punishments. However, it seemed like it wasn't just about that, that the outcry was for retribution, for penance, for collective guilt that would extend even to the students who were also supposed to be protected by the same authorities that allowed these horrible rapes to happen.

And now here we are, a couple of months later, and I just can't find the public outcry over Penn State football anymore. I'm not saying it was handled perfectly or that there's still not a stigma attached due to Penn State not being more extreme in its response, but it does seem like a lot of the harsher calls have proven to be the product of the heat of the moment.

It seems shallow to think of self-preservation in the middle of something like this, but if it's not covering up anything and if it's not setting the stage for the next conspiracy of abuse, and instead if it's just about handling the emotional public reaction to news...I don't know. This raises some difficult questions about how much punishment the...let's say the non-involved (rather than 'innocent') should accept without defending themselves.

There's that saying "people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel." It's a little cynical if we're talking about people on the inside of something where justice should be done for its own sake. On the other hand, when we're talking about third-parties who have no relationship to the victims making demands out of emotional outrage on third-parties where there is nothing criminal or conspiratorial about their relationship to the transgressors (evil-doers if that sounds better), maybe it's not.

I don't know--especially in the context of the Penny Arcade mob, it raises some difficult questions. I wonder how many of the conclusions people are coming to in that instance, if they would be as comfortable applying those to this mob, and vice versa.