Ubisoft on Triple-A games: Go big or go home.

*gasp*
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Scratched's picture
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From http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2010-08-31-corre-gamer-interview - An interview with Ubisoft Europe MD Alain Corre.

Quote:
Q: How has the rising cost of making triple-A games changed production at Ubisoft?

Alain Corre: The games that are not triple-A are not profitable anymore. And that’s changed in the last 18 months. When you have a triple-A blockbuster it costs more money to develop, but at the end of the day there’s also the chance of a good return on it because there’s a concentration at the top of the charts. To a certain extent it becomes less risky to invest more in a single game or franchise than spreading your investment between three or four games. Because if those three or four games are not at the right quality level, you are sure to lose money. So the business model has changed and we’re changing our way of making hardcore games. With hardcore games that we’re not sure are reaching the right level, we stop work on them. And that’s why we concentrate more on key franchises, because that’s what the market wants - something new with huge quality production behind it. The market is not supporting the full range of product that it used to anymore.


I found that interesting to be stated so simply as matter of fact, but I can't say I'm surprised.

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TheGameguru's picture
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It's true but shortsighted if taken to the extreme. Because every huge franchise today started out as a new IP of some sorts and a relative unknown product. Hopefully the industry doesn't shift to this extreme and finds room to put dollars and development behind new and promising products as well as the endless sequels.

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I wouldn't totally agree. I mean, he's right that a proven franchise is a much less risky investment than a new game. But I believe that the market totally is there for new, unproven stuff - given that the price is right. If you invest a lot in a new franchise chances are that you fail, but then again, if you take the risk, you may have a basis for the cash cow he mentioned - see Bioshock or Assassin's Creed and its spinoffs.

It comes down to choice - if you plan to spend 60 dollars on a game, you probably reach for a proven franchise instead of an unknown 60 dollar box. However, if the choice is one AAA game vs 3 or 4 interesting-looking titles for the same sixty dollars, the outcome can differ a lot. And you can cut down prices significantly by e.g. using only digital downloads for the "lesser" games (see 2K and their 2K Play, which published e.g. The Misadventures of P.B. Winterbottom). In other words, there are ways to significantly mitigate risks connected with new franchises and it doesn't have to cost you millions in marketing budget.

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Scratched wrote:
I found that interesting to be stated so simply as matter of fact

Well, it's not exactly breaking news. Corre is simply repeating what other companies like EA or Take-Two have already said in the past months. For instance, this is what the TTWO management said 10 months ago:

Quote:
"The demand for top-tier products is okay. The demand for lower-tier products is not so clear," Zelnick (pictured) said during an analyst conference call attended by Gamasutra today. "The safest place to be is in triple-A."

Riccitiello basically said the same after titles like Mirror's Edge underperformed. Activision Blizzard's take on this always has been very clear and sure as hell has not changed now that the only new IPs they've launched in the recent past - Blur and Singularity - bombed heavily. (There are multiple reasons for that, obviously, but there usually is only one lesson management will learn here.)

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django's picture

wanderingtaoist wrote:

It comes down to choice - if you plan to spend 60 dollars on a game, you probably reach for a proven franchise instead of an unknown 60 dollar box. However, if the choice is one AAA game vs 3 or 4 interesting-looking titles for the same sixty dollars, the outcome can differ a lot. And you can cut down prices significantly by e.g. using only digital downloads for the "lesser" games (see 2K and their 2K Play, which published e.g. The Misadventures of P.B. Winterbottom). In other words, there are ways to significantly mitigate risks connected with new franchises and it doesn't have to cost you millions in marketing budget.

I agree. If we're gonna have quality tiers (well, not anymore), why not have pricing tiers?
I suspect one of the reason they don't experiment with different pricing levels could be because they're not only competing for our money, they're also competing with other games/media for our time.

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Maybe the market isn't supporting the full range anymore, and maybe the full range is no longer offered to the market. I know that Ubisoft needs to shut up and fix their horrific DRM before they start giving advice on how to run a game company.

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darrenl's picture

I take issue with how he seems to imply that:
a) triple A is somehow directly proportional to the money you throw at a game
b) the money you throw at a game is directly proportional to the quality of the game.

...this type of cynical business outlook on my beloved hobby makes me grumpy and all the more motivated to spend my gaming money on indie studios who "get it".

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darrenl wrote:
I take issue with how he seems to imply that:
a) triple A is somehow directly proportional to the money you throw at a game
b) the money you throw at a game is directly proportional to the quality of the game.

...this type of cynical business outlook on my beloved hobby makes me grumpy and all the more motivated to spend my gaming money on indie studios who "get it".

Well, I would say he's right on both points. Isn't AAA the equivalent of a blockbuster? An while money doesn't make a bad game good, it does allow a high level of polish and polish sells.

django wrote:
I suspect one of the reason they don't experiment with different pricing levels could be because they're not only competing for our money, they're also competing with other games/media for our time.

And they are competing with themselves. Launch a semi-budget title at $40 and it is potentially more appealing to the customer than a AAA game at $60. Rather go AAA, launch big, then discount.

The idea of AAA or bust may not be appealing, but I think that if we look at it pragmatically, it seems obvious.

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Obviously Eidos agrees with them. They seem to believe making a sequel to a game that was universally panned (Kane & Lynch) is preferable to coming up with a new idea.

I wonder how much money Valve makes on indie games. I bet it's more than enough to justify making games (not that Valve makes them but they get a cut of the profits).

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django wrote:
If we're gonna have quality tiers (well, not anymore), why not have pricing tiers?

Exactly. These pricing tiers exist in the form of used games and sales, and those lower price points are where I pick up stuff like Mirror's Edge. If they would launch at those price points and capture that all-important new title buzz, the money that goes to Gamestop might go to them instead.

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ccesarano's picture
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I think the major issue is that games by smaller studios on a budget, and possibly even released at a budget price, tend to be quite obviously lacking in quality. Jurassic: The Hunted was released at $40, but even then I was lucky enough to get it as a review copy because it took me about three or so hours to beat. It was certainly lacking in good A.I. and design and pretty much had nothing but good graphics (to an extent).

Funny thing is, if the game's survival mode was up to four players online the $40 price point would have been near worth it.

Still, when the industry makes budget titles they tend to suck. It's like a small studio is trying to make a AAA budget title without the budget. To which I say screw it, make a game that takes some of the older sensibilities and make it fun. I mean, if I go back and play the original Halo, which sure as sh*t didn't cost as much as Halo 2 or Halo 3, I still find it to be a lot of fun because it had good design choices that surpass technology. The issue comes with developers trying to make carbon copies.

People say go big or go home, but honestly, what do you mean by "big"? Because you don't need a huge budget in order to be fun. Nor do you need hours upon hours of voice acting. Sure there are smaller groups of modern players that are willing to put up with a game with all text (sort of, considering a lot of Nintendo games on the Wii are still all text), but if you're not trying to make a AAA budget game then you don't need to worry about getting as large a return on investment anyway.

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I have a feeling this interview is going to be very misunderstood.

I think this interview is mostly about how game consumers are more educated and more discerning about their purchases. I don't think it's about 'exploiting IPs' or anything evil. I think it's about recognizing that if you build a great game people will buy it which is a good thing--the market will reward quality. But you can't just build a good game or it's going to get lost in the shuffle. That may be unfortunate, but it doesn't mean it's attributable to something negative.

It makes sense that things have changed in the last 18 months--this is about the time we'd be getting a new console generation, right? There are just too many great games out there. You can pick up a game from 18 months ago and it's not going to feel antiquated--it's going to feel like it could launch tomorrow and still be relevant. Don't most of us have a pile? It's a lot harder to sell someone like me Crackdown 2 when I've had Crackdown sitting in my pile for it seems like years now, unless you make a game that I Just Have to Have as opposed to Another Quality Game.

MrDeVil909 wrote:

And they are competing with themselves. Launch a semi-budget title at $40 and it is potentially more appealing to the customer than a AAA game at $60. Rather go AAA, launch big, then discount.

True--Ubisoft does seem to heavily discount very soon. I'm pretty sure you were able to get the Assassin's Creed games for about half price less than a year after launch.

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ccesarano wrote:
I think the major issue is that games by smaller studios on a budget, and possibly even released at a budget price, tend to be quite obviously lacking in quality. Jurassic: The Hunted was released at $40, but even then I was lucky enough to get it as a review copy because it took me about three or so hours to beat. It was certainly lacking in good A.I. and design and pretty much had nothing but good graphics (to an extent).

Funny thing is, if the game's survival mode was up to four players online the $40 price point would have been near worth it.

Still, when the industry makes budget titles they tend to suck. It's like a small studio is trying to make a AAA budget title without the budget. To which I say screw it, make a game that takes some of the older sensibilities and make it fun. I mean, if I go back and play the original Halo, which sure as sh*t didn't cost as much as Halo 2 or Halo 3, I still find it to be a lot of fun because it had good design choices that surpass technology. The issue comes with developers trying to make carbon copies.

People say go big or go home, but honestly, what do you mean by "big"? Because you don't need a huge budget in order to be fun. Nor do you need hours upon hours of voice acting. Sure there are smaller groups of modern players that are willing to put up with a game with all text (sort of, considering a lot of Nintendo games on the Wii are still all text), but if you're not trying to make a AAA budget game then you don't need to worry about getting as large a return on investment anyway.

RE: Jurassic - I wish that there were more games like this. I bought it, played it, really enjoyed it. I just wanted a throwaway game to play for a weekend - and at the price point, i could handle it. I subsequently traded it for a different game on switchgames - so I wasn't really out any money. I wish devs realized that we don't always want huge mind-blowing experiences. Sometimes we just want to shoot some dinosaurs with crappy graphics and gameplay.

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The entire business universe is risk averse right now. It's unsurprising that the game industry is also risk averse. That whole quote just sounded to me like a (reasonably good) rationalization for avoiding risk.

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There seems to be a lack of understanding in at least the big game shops about what makes a good game. If I had to guess, the line items for a game that cost the most time and money are realistic graphics and realistic physics. I would bet that either (or both) of those "features" make for a tremendous rathole that just sucks in money, time and personnel. Without one (or both) of them, I bet it's a whole lot easier to put out a high quality game as long as your game works without them - and let's face it, most games would. Apply all the time you would spend on 'realistic-izing' your game on good design and excessive polish, and you'll do much better that if you put out a great looking game that plays like ass.

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I don't think the big studios actually remember how to make a non-AAA game anymore.

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Scratched's picture
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EA and THQ have their respective 'partners' programs, which seems to be for a variety of sizes of project. If anything I wish more indie developers would use the big publishers a bit more.

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Scratched wrote:
If anything I wish more indie developers would use the big publishers a bit more.

1) Publishers have a limited number of slots and will not distribute everything that's being thrown their way. 2) It also is not an overly attractive option for many teams. It means you usually have to transfer the IP to the publisher, thus losing the thing you've personally invested in so much. (Exception: You are a super-hot developer everyone would kill to work with, e.g. Respawn.) THQ Partners even explicitely stated that they'll only accept projects if they get to own the IP.

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Spunior wrote:
Scratched wrote:
If anything I wish more indie developers would use the big publishers a bit more.

1) Publishers have a limited number of slots and will not distribute everything that's being thrown their way. 2) It also is not an overly attractive option for many teams. It means you usually have to transfer the IP to the publisher, thus losing the thing you've personally invested in so much. (Exception: You are a super-hot developer everyone would kill to work with, e.g. Respawn.) THQ Partners even explicitely stated that they'll only accept projects if they get to own the IP.

Given that Double Fine owns Costume Quest, I wonder how rigid they are with that requirement. Granted, Double Fine isn't an unknown indie team but given that both of their AAA titles to date have been flops, you wouldn't think THQ would be willing to bend over backwards for them.

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Parallax Abstraction wrote:
Given that Double Fine owns Costume Quest, I wonder how rigid they are with that requirement.

1) I'm not talking about XBLA releases. Obviously, EA doesn't own Shank or DeathSpank either. Keep in mind that neither Hothead nor Double Fine are special in any way though - unfortunately, developers have to have some sort of publishing partner to get their games made available on XBLA (!). Minor sidenote: 2) Costume Quest isn't being published through THQ Partners, IIRC - that one's dedicated to the retail distribution of software. And the Partners division was what I was replying to.

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SallyNasty wrote:
RE: Jurassic - I wish that there were more games like this. I bought it, played it, really enjoyed it. I just wanted a throwaway game to play for a weekend - and at the price point, i could handle it. I subsequently traded it for a different game on switchgames - so I wasn't really out any money. I wish devs realized that we don't always want huge mind-blowing experiences. Sometimes we just want to shoot some dinosaurs with crappy graphics and gameplay.

I'm still waiting for someone to realize that removing the zombies from Left 4 Dead and dropping in Raptors and sh*t is a bad ass idea.

Well, someone that makes games, that is.

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Unfortunately, when Ubisoft's idea of "triple-A" is Rabbids and Ass's Creed, they'll be bankrupt by next gen.

I avoid online multiplayer because my brain still works.

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Quote:
The market is not supporting the full range of product that it used to anymore

In other words, "Our DRM-infested sh*t isn't selling well."

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Spunior wrote:
Parallax Abstraction wrote:
Given that Double Fine owns Costume Quest, I wonder how rigid they are with that requirement.

1) I'm not talking about XBLA releases. Obviously, EA doesn't own Shank or DeathSpank either. Keep in mind that neither Hothead nor Double Fine are special in any way though - unfortunately, developers have to have some sort of publishing partner to get their games made available on XBLA (!). Minor sidenote: 2) Costume Quest isn't being published through THQ Partners, IIRC - that one's dedicated to the retail distribution of software. And the Partners division was what I was replying to.

Ahh OK, fair enough. I thought I read somewhere that Costume Quest was the first THQ Partners title but if this is a special one-off deal with Double Fine, that makes more sense. It's really ridiculous that if you don't have a major publisher, you'll have a hard time getting on XBLA. I thought that was supposed to be the place where you didn't need that?

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ccesarano's picture
Location: Mullica Hill, NJ

Parallax Abstraction wrote:
Ahh OK, fair enough. I thought I read somewhere that Costume Quest was the first THQ Partners title but if this is a special one-off deal with Double Fine, that makes more sense. It's really ridiculous that if you don't have a major publisher, you'll have a hard time getting on XBLA. I thought that was supposed to be the place where you didn't need that?

It was, until everyone and their mom tried to hop on board. Now XBLA is the "high quality" stuff and a lot of the more independent titles go to Indie Arcade, where there is absolutely no control ever. Of course, the chances that someone will find your game are also nil.

Every once in a while Live Arcade gets some genuinely indie stuff, like Dishwasher Dead Samurai, but if you notice a lot of times it's just ports or smaller games by big companies in order to provide a level of quality control.

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ccesarano wrote:
Parallax Abstraction wrote:
Ahh OK, fair enough. I thought I read somewhere that Costume Quest was the first THQ Partners title but if this is a special one-off deal with Double Fine, that makes more sense. It's really ridiculous that if you don't have a major publisher, you'll have a hard time getting on XBLA. I thought that was supposed to be the place where you didn't need that?

It was, until everyone and their mom tried to hop on board. Now XBLA is the "high quality" stuff and a lot of the more independent titles go to Indie Arcade, where there is absolutely no control ever. Of course, the chances that someone will find your game are also nil.

Every once in a while Live Arcade gets some genuinely indie stuff, like Dishwasher Dead Samurai, but if you notice a lot of times it's just ports or smaller games by big companies in order to provide a level of quality control.

Hmmm.. that's interesting. When did the requirements to get a game into XBLA change? I think it was over a year ago now that Goldensly and I were working with a team to put out our own indie title on the 360. We figured the Indie Arcade (then called Community) would bury our title amid the glut of vibrators and RC flight sims, so we looked into getting the game onto the actual XBLA. What we found, if I remember correctly, was that basically anyone could get their game onto Live Arcade, but there was a very stringent Quality Control test that could only be failed 5 times (and each time you might retake the test, you had to pay them more money). A very tough wall to climb, but it definitely separated the wheat from the chaff. Is that not the case anymore?

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I seem to remember reading somewhere else (I hate citing articles without links but it was a long time ago) that there is an overabundance of content for XBLA and since Microsoft only wants to put out one or two titles a week, some developers were getting delayed indefinitely. Apparently when you apply to go on XBLA, the little guys are told by Microsoft when their games will go up and that can sometimes be months away or just "We'll let you know." Given that games which meet XBLA's quality requirements must take at least thousands to make, I can see this scaring off the little guys. I guess the bigger publishers are able to use their clout to get around this. Say what you want about PSN but it's inconsistent release schedule and frequent droughts are probably good for indies who want to get on there without giving the vast majority of their profits away to Microsoft and now a publisher to boot.

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The requirements didn't really change, but considering the monetary costs and requirements I wouldn't be surprised if there's a definite lean towards bigger publishers that can afford all the testing and quality and such that smaller developers can't. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if Scott Pilgrim vs. The World wasn't even a timed exclusive for PS3, just that PSN wasn't so backed up.

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ccesarano wrote:
Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if Scott Pilgrim vs. The World wasn't even a timed exclusive for PS3, just that PSN wasn't so backed up.

I think MS simply didn't want it to be released at the same time as the Summer of Arcade games. I think they would have released it the same week as PSN otherwise.

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Quote:
Hmmm.. that's interesting. When did the requirements to get a game into XBLA change?

At around or shortly after the Xbox Live Indie Games channel got launched. AFAIK, if you're an indie developer and want to launch your game on XBLA without having to go through a third-party, your only hope is that Microsoft themselves will step in to take the game under its wings. (See Braid.) This is one of the reasons why Amanita didn't do an XBLA version of Machinarium, which now will be released on PSN instead.

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Lard wrote:
Unfortunately, when Ubisoft's idea of "triple-A" is Rabbids and Ass's Creed, they'll be bankrupt by next gen.

You mean the Ass's Creed series that sold over a million and a half copies on the 360 last Christmas in the US?

Lard, meet facts. Facts, this is Lard.

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