Amanda Knox Found Guilty
Friday, December 4th, 2009 - 11:19pm
This has been a whole huge thing in Italy and Britain, but essentially, an American student studying abroad in Italy was convicted of helping her boyfriend and another man murder her roommate, Meredith Kercher.
Given that I've only heard snippets here and there about the trial, I can't really pretend to have a serious opinion on it, but I was surprised to find out that, in a trial like this where there was so much in the way of salacious rumors going around in the press, that the jury was not sequestered at all until they began deliberations yesterday.
Quote:
Some might choose to pray, some might choose to snooze
But the style that I use is the style that's mine
XBL Tag: Prederick
Playing On Semi-Pro


It's a complicated situation, first and foremost because the Italian system of justice is essentially "guilty until proven innocent;" in other words, if you're charged with a crime, chances are in the eyes of the jury pool there's a good reason why you were. Second, from what I heard from a Vanity Fair writer speaking on CNN (her opinion, mind you), the Italian prosecutor was hell-bent on getting a conviction because he believed that because Amanda actively had sex with her boyfriend (apparently he found the idea of her carrying condoms in her purse shocking) and did drugs that she had to be guilty, that because her behavior was so deviant in his eyes that she was already a criminal and it was logical for him to go from seeing her as a drug and sex addict to a murderer. Throw out that there was no clear motive in the killing and that the DNA evidence essentially pointed against her being involved in the murder that the prosecutor convinced the trial judge to exclude from the proceedings. They wanted, to paraphrase The Merchantman of Venice, their pound of flesh and they got it. There isn't a damn thing Amanda Knox or her lawyers can do about it and short of proving gross misconduct on the part of the prosecution and/or the trial judge, she's going to serve out her term in full.
"Men like sex, thus boobies! Oogaba!" - dejanzie
"Butt hat is my opinion and we all know how far that goes around here." - Demonicmaster
Twitter
Yeah, hard evidence didn't seem to have much impact on the jury. The only DNA evidence of her they had was from a knife they couldn't prove was the actual weapon.
What did her in (besides the fact that she's a young American woman) was her erratic behavior after the murder. She said she was at the scene of the crime, and blamed her boss for the murder only to recant that testimony soon after and say she wasn't there. And then she was seen doing cartwheels and such when her then boyfriend was brought in for questioning... basically not looking like she was too disturbed her friend and roommate was just brutally murdered.
None of that is proof of guilt, and I personally think she's innocent, but she didn't really help her case at all with her behavior.
Steam | PSN
Yeah, from the snippets i've read, i'm leaning towards "innocent" but again, I honestly have no idea.
Quote:
XBL Tag: Prederick
Playing On Semi-Pro
From the small bits I've read, an acquittal on appeal isn't out of the question. Apparently that's pretty common in Italy because of their general "guilty until proven innocent" attitude that you mentioned. Also the judge refused to let forensic experts for the defense testify on the shaky DNA evidence which seems pretty suspect. I wouldn't put her chances at high, but there has been some precedent set.
Of course I'm basing all of this on CNN reports and the like, so who knows what the actual situation is.
Steam | PSN
It's not good, it's official US State complaint level, but the Italians aren't some third world nation, so we can't be accusing them of a bullsh*t archaic legal system that, while inept against criminals like the organized ones in the south, slams smaller people and the mentally disturbed ( I think it's been pretty clear that Knox, while probably not a killer, is 50 cards short of a deck)
I'm not sure I'd characterize the Italian legal system as "archaic". I was intrigued to discover that the Italian jury system is comprised of six peers and two judges, meaning every jury has a small educated element. There's also the issue of the appeal, which will no doubt take a while to go through but tends to lead to a much more lenient retrial (from what I've read).
As to her behavior, I don't pretend to know all the facts of the case, but any time there's mind-altering drugs flying around it gets damn hard to take anyone at their word. Whenever I heard anything about this trial through CNN, it seemed there was an "innocent" bias in the way facts were reported; when I read about it on the BBC site, that bias seemed less present. But at the end of the day, I have to admit to being woefully underinformed about the whole thing.
Scratched wrote:
I read today in my Belgian newspaper that they both confessed to murder. Was this not mentioned by CNN?
sarcasm
Or were they coerced by the incompetent Italian judicial system into a false confession?
/sarcasm
Roo wrote:
Coldstream wrote:
No one's ever suggested a new signature, I'm beginning to suspect no one reads them.
Is there any evidence that the Italian police beat or coerced the confession out of Knox?
Paleocon wrote:
Steam/Live
Weren't they trying to paint her as an assassin? A murder of one foreigner by another is a little different than the assassination of one by another.
NOTE: Not a doodle bug.
Steam-XBox-PSN: Lobstermancer
It is really hard to get good information here in the US. I do remember hearing on NPR that at first she said she was home during the murder and actually heard the screams of her roommate...then she changed her story to say she was gone at the time. Ummm that makes me really suspicious. I would like to know more but the way the media handles stories we probably won't really know much until someone researches and publishes a book about it.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8391199.stm
The only thing that seems clear is that the woman has not brought all of her sandwiches to the picnic. Whether this predates the murder or is a result of the ensuing legal and press pressures is hard to say. Were her actions afterwards those of drug addled nymphomaniac psychotic as the prosecution have portrayed, or simply a young woman breaking down due to confusion and fear?
I don't know whether she is innocent or guilty, but I'm sure the Italians would prefer people think that an American student murdered a British one rather than a native Italian murdering a tourist. That doesn't look so good in the brochures.
Life was a game of inches. Now it is a game of 2.54cm units. I blame this for the failure of my decision making paradigm.
That a pretty far fetched claim to make, Darktan. There is no evidence pointing to that conclusion apart from a claim made by one of the suspect (OJ, anyone?). I'm interested in this because apart from some accusations and hear-say there is nothing to indicate that Knox isn't guilty.
I'm open to all possibilities but as of now but I think many in this thread are operating on an emotional level and not a rational one. Up to now we've had ad hominem attacks on the entire Italian judicial system and even the vague notion that because she was American she was found guilty which is a weird one considering two other Italians are in prison for the crime as well. Frankly, unless someone can come up with a serious insight I'm chalking this one up to tribalism or nationalism.
Oh and the Perugian police have sued Knox's parents for defamation, a case they started in 2008. The claim that they beat a confession out of Knox didn't go down well, it seems.
Paleocon wrote:
Steam/Live
One guy who has been blogging at the NY Times lays out the problems with the case here. I haven't followed the case closely and don't have an opinion on her guilt or innocence, but simply dismissing any objections as "tribalism" sounds like pan-european tribalism itself.
I'm not dismissing objections, I'm looking for the basis of the appeal and the errors in the trial. Thanks for the link, I'll give it a read.
Paleocon wrote:
Steam/Live
I feel like this is all about nationalism and her prettiness and gender - for Americans. There are hundreds of cases in the US of people railroaded by the justice system but we hardly hear about them at all. Just do some digging and they are easy to find. So why is this story so important. The only thing that makes any sense is nationalism. It is another way for people to bolster the idea that America is somehow better than every other country. Look at their backwards legal system! Look how they make this innocent American suffer! Is must be because they hate America. etc. etc.
Don't get me wrong in the US she probably wouldn't have been convicted (because she is a white woman with money to get a good attorney) but that isn't something to really crow about since we have more than enough cases where people were convicted with less evidence. Will this encourage US citizens to look more closely at our own justice system and work to improve it? Or will it just be another reason everyone else in the world is wrong?
Which part? I'm fairly certain that any society would rather blame "outsiders" for its problems than face the facts that they come from within, if it's possible. I'm not suggesting that Knox has been scapegoated because of her nationality - as you point out, two Italians have also been convicted. I suppose my point is that her role, whatever it might have been, has been given more publicity because of her nationality.
I'm not being particularly clear today, a fact I ascribe at least in part to the fact that the only reason I'm on here is because I am off work with norovirus.
I'm not sure that is any different from any other Western country. In theory, in both the UK and the US, you are innocent until proven guilty. However, at least some members of every jury may have the view that there is no smoke without fire, and so on. Personal preconceptions are a difficult thing to quantify, particularly as people are unlikely to consciously own up to making up their minds as to the verdict within ten seconds of seeing the defendant.
Life was a game of inches. Now it is a game of 2.54cm units. I blame this for the failure of my decision making paradigm.
Yes, and most people seem to think OJ Simpson killed his wife. In the eyes of the law, he's innocent (of that, at least). The "innocent until proven guilty" thing has a very profound effect on the entire system. I've often heard of police waiting to charge someone with a crime until they have enough evidence to prove it, because they only get one shot at it. The unscientific opinion of the jury is only part of it.
NOTE: Not a doodle bug.
Steam-XBox-PSN: Lobstermancer
Ah, the old double jeopardy thang. We quietly ushered that one out of the door a few years back, but you still need "new and compelling evidence" for a retrial. In practice though, I suspect that the same timing issue still applies, as the Crown Prosecution Service is only likely to spring for cases that they have a fighting change of getting a conviction in.
Life was a game of inches. Now it is a game of 2.54cm units. I blame this for the failure of my decision making paradigm.
I'd hit it. Guilty.
You should follow me on Twitter: @legion
Steam: *Legion* | Xbox Live: Legion SB | PSN: Legion_SB | Origin: LegionSB
Well I could care less as I don't find sensational news all that interesting but from what little I have heard it was mostly the Italian media that is going ape over this young lady. I would guess that if it weren't for the amount of coverage it is getting over there you wouldn't probably hear about it at all here in the States. I'm not arguing that responses here aren't as you say they are but I don't think under the circumstances (overly exposed in Europe, barely covered here) that it is very surprising. We aren't the ones making a big deal out of her being an American (general statement, I know) so when it is pointed out I can see people getting defensive or their tribalism kicking in.
"I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man's reasoning powers are not above the monkey's." Twain
Something ain't right about that girl.
Xbox Live: CrankyBaby
Steam: Podunk
Ok, I've read the blog that Funken linked. Hardly convincing stuff combined when the fact that his second point has already been refuted. The Perugian police started their case in Sept 2008 and not days before the trial. The first point that theatrics have no place in a court room is a little ironic coming from an American but hardly proof of a mistrial or a miscarriage.
So after that opening gambit he moves on to the case itself. He makes some serious claims that Knox cannot be linked to the crime which I will counter with another American publication, Newsweek.
Again, I'm not going to say that this is an open or shut case. I do have grave concerns about relying upon forensic and circumstantial evidence too much. However, Knox has not at any point in this trial done herself any favours by either shifting alibi's, naming an innocent man or getting caught out in lies that harm her version of events.
Paleocon wrote:
Steam/Live
That's why I'm gone, right after I hit it.
You should follow me on Twitter: @legion
Steam: *Legion* | Xbox Live: Legion SB | PSN: Legion_SB | Origin: LegionSB
We need Mex in here, to determine whether she is or is not hittable and whether there is or is not something that ain't right about her.
NOTE: Not a doodle bug.
Steam-XBox-PSN: Lobstermancer
I'm sure there was something similar said in the court room.
Life was a game of inches. Now it is a game of 2.54cm units. I blame this for the failure of my decision making paradigm.
FWIW, I thought he was convicted in his civil trial on the basis of having killed his wife even though he was declared innocent in the criminal trial.
"We are at our best when we work together. We are at our worst when we expend valuable and finite energy and resources destroying one another." - Paleocon, regarding humanity.
This thread is going places!
Xbox Live: CrankyBaby
Steam: Podunk
I'd hit it. At the airport, right after she passed through the metal detector.
I'm feeling unappreciated.
"Men like sex, thus boobies! Oogaba!" - dejanzie
"Butt hat is my opinion and we all know how far that goes around here." - Demonicmaster
Twitter