How to fix game download services for good
So far, people are all assuming that digital downloads should always mean loss of the right to resell. I don't get that. Sure the current systems don't allow you to resell your stuff. But, why should it stay this way? We consumers have rights under the first sales doctrine that (from Wikipedia) "allows the purchaser to transfer (i.e., sell or give away) a particular lawfully made copy of the copyrighted work without permission once it has been obtained. This means that the copyright holder's rights to control the change of ownership of a particular copy end once that copy is sold, as long as no additional copies are made."
Autodesk is one company who tried that to challenge that recently and lost in court. (http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2008/05/court-smacks-autodesk-af...) What does this mean? That we are entitled under first-sale doctrine to resell something we bought. And, assuming the laws elsewhere are similar to Canada's, which is where I live, a company can't ask you to waive a right that is given to you by the law. So basically, all those EULAs saying you can't resell : bullsh*t.
Now, the only thing missing from digital services like XBox Live or Steam is the ability to transfer licenses. It wouldn't be hard for Valve or Microsoft to simply revoke your license and transfer it to some other account of your choice. This way, only one person can enjoy that "copy" at a time. This would open the door to lending your "copy" to a friend.
When reselling, the user could even pay in Microsoft Points. This would be a win-win scenario : you win because you get part of your investment back and Microsof wins because it forces you to buy more content on the Marketplace. Valve could give you credit for your next Steam purchase.
Finding buyers would be simple. Simply partner with eBay. I would log unto eBay, enter my Gamertag, select the piece of content(s) associated with my account that I want to put up for sale, set an amount of Microsoft Points I want and wait for the auction to end. When the auction is won, I turn on my Xbox and connect to Xbox Live. It would automatically revoke my license, delete the content from my console and credits my account. Even a copy I might have kept somewhere else wouldn't work anymore because my account wouldn't have the license anymore.
And if Microsoft and Valve really want to make money out of this, they could always charge a transfer fee so they'd get some revenue from resales. I could totally live with a 5% transfer fee. That would be the nail in the coffin for brick and mortar stores and the power would be back in the users hands. And it would be about time!
Am I crazy? Am I missing something? It seems like this could be simple if done the right way. What do you think girls and guys think?
XBL : CrazyJF

I think you are missing the difference between a license and a sale. The end-user isn't purchasing the games, they are licensing the games, meaning they don't have ownership. They just are acquiring the rights to use the software and therefore they don't have the right to resell the game.
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D3: IUMogg1400
xbox/ps3 IUMogg
Impulse has plans to head down this road, which will hopefully force some of the other major players in digital downloads to follow them.
merphle wrote:
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XBox Live
There's still no reason you shouldn't be able to transfer your license to someone else.
merphle wrote:
Steam ID
XBox Live
What you're missing is that the incentive is incredibly low for any service to allow transfers. Xbox Live, Steam, PSN - they all have a lock on content that would be silly to give up. Getting a small percentage of each transfer from a fee? Why bother? It'd be a huge pain in the ass and it would cut into their sales. Better to have people buy it at the price they set than deal with all the BS associated with setting up a system for swapping digital games.
I don't think it's even necessary, really. If you look at digital distribution prices, it's pretty obvious (especially with Steam) that the companies are using different price points to lure in all the customers. The pre-order crowd? Throw them a bone with a 5-10% discount. The early adopters get the shaft with the full retail price, but they get immediate satisfaction (no waiting out in the cold for the midnight release). Impulse buyers or more bargain savvy individuals buy when things go on sale (at 50-90% off - in a retail store they would've been sent to the dumpster to open up shelf space).
So digital distributors don't want you to resell games, but even assuming that the first sale doctrine says you can (although I'd like to see a case cited that refers to digital distribution instead of a physical retail software package) a court has yet to say that the distributor has to provide the buyer with an avenue for reselling. While they may not be able to stop you from selling an account, it does mean that you will have to setup a new account under a dummy name/e-mail for every game you buy and plan on reselling. That's just not worth it to the vast majority of the population.
Steam - fuzzybunny81
Xbox Live - fuzzybunny81
The reason is the licensee is agreeing that they are acquiring a non-transferable license. The licensing agreement defines the rights of both parties. One of those rights not included in the right to transfer the license. The licensee can't change the terms of that contract because they think they should be able to. So basically the reason you can't is because you agree that you can't.
http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198000762056
D3: IUMogg1400
xbox/ps3 IUMogg
That's a fair point, as much as I don't like the terms of the agreement, I'm pretty sure Steam has their own EULA pop up before you actually purchase anything, so I can't hide behind the "I can't even see that agreement until I've already bought it" defense.
merphle wrote:
Steam ID
XBox Live
I'd rather digital distribution services don't offer resale options. They'll have to compensate by raising their prices, because on some sales they will only be getting 5 percent, rather than the full purchase price that the new buyer would have to pay.
Also, I don't want to read thousands of internet users complaining about how Steam knocked 75 percent off the retail price right after UsedGameGuy69 put his copy of Duke Nukem Forever 2 up for bid.
XBL: The Counselar PSN: TheCounselor Steam: http://steamcommunity.com/id/TheCounselor
"You realise that you're questioning the internal logic of a game in which a fat plumber rides a dinosaur in space?" Jonman
The problem with this is that it's legally unenforceable, due precisely to first-sale doctrine. Shrink wrap EULAs are completely unenforceable when it comes down to it. Software companies can claim otherwise all they like, but at the end of the day, it's still infringement on consumer rights.
Coldstream wrote:
XBL
Steam
It's an interesting point and I can see why the companies involved would like to avoid this if possible. Perhaps the best option would be to allow you to sell back a game for a percentage of the current price/purchase price (whichever is the lower).
Basically you'd sell back your copy of the game to the company and be given credit towards something else. It avoids the problem of someone else getting a copy of the game while they only get 5% of the sale but gives users the opportunity to sell back something they no longer want.
I still see issues with this but it seems a bit more workable.
I'm sorry but do you have any evidence of this? I keep hearing this statement parroted but any time I try to confirm this, I see evidence to the contrary, including tons of court cases where it's ruled that breaking a seal or clicking an "I agree" button, as long as the EULA is written clearly, is completely legal.
I think that's actually how the Impulse solution is supposed to work. You can only sell it back to them. I can't see another reasonable option, because otherwise it will destroy the already fragile single-player game market on PC, as it would be so easy to game the system otherwise.
I would think the first rule of PR is to ignore forum people, because they vacillate between crazy and liar. - Elysium
Wouldn't you just rather buy the game cheaper? You're paying for that extra credit up front.
XBL: The Counselar PSN: TheCounselor Steam: http://steamcommunity.com/id/TheCounselor
"You realise that you're questioning the internal logic of a game in which a fat plumber rides a dinosaur in space?" Jonman
Prove that I clicked that button, and not someone else.
Steam: Multra Xbox Live: Multra Ironclad Online: Multra
Again, you're just providing loophole scenarios, not evidence that it isn't legally enforceable.
I would think the first rule of PR is to ignore forum people, because they vacillate between crazy and liar. - Elysium
One of the reasons I prefer Direct 2 Drive say over Steam, is that I just get dumb files that are basically the same files from a DVD. I can download the files, put them on a disc, hard drive, and then install on a friend's computer.
I like Steam a lot, and what they are doing with pricing may very well end much of our desire to lend, borrow games. Why lend it when you can jsut say "look, it's 5 bucks this weekend, just buy the f*cking thing and we can play together."
Sadly, what I see as being more common will be account tied content, and before they finally go the way of the dino, disc based games will tie themselves or alienate the secondary market like Dawn of War 2 or Gears of War 2.
But much like my music, I see the market trending to zero DRM and easy transferral. And more players will be decision makers at game companies. You listen to the EA podcast this week, one of the Dead Space designers was happy and proud that twice as many people played it compared to bought it new. They have 3 million plus interrested parties for expansion content or a sequel.
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I've never used Direct2Drive. Does it work like GamersGate, where in order to install, you have you enter your username and password so that they can be authenticated?
XBL Gamertag: AMN 360
Steam: amn360
PSN: amn360
Nope. You can either just download a compressed package and install from an executable or set-up, or you use their download manager(sadly Internet Explorer only). And you just have files saved to a directory. You have a CD key saved to your profile, and the instal is just like from a DVD. Basically what you download from D2D is a rip of the disc version. I would say it works more like Impulse.
And Gamersgate is horrible.
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I just don't ever see the re-selling of your license as a smart move for any digital distribution service. It gets way to complicated way to fast, especially when you start throwing the huge discounts that you get from services like Steam into the mix. Lets say I pick up a huge bundle on say Company of Heroes for $30 bucks. I grab the original game and several expansions for a great price. Retail this would have cost me roughly $20 a game for each license so lest say $60 total for the original and 2 expansions. Now, I play the games, love them, but want to sell them back because I'm done with them. The games are not on sale any longer and are at $20 a piece. What does Steam do in order to make sure that I don't make money on the deal? Think about the big christmas sale last year and how much you got when it was discounted. How does Steam manage all those different price points and be able to resell the license? The re-sale market for PC games has been going the way of the DoDo for quite a while and I don't see it ever being a viable option. When I buy a game on Steam, or even go to the store and pick up a boxed copy of a PC game, I'm not expecting to resell it. PC to me means Permanent Copy. I'm never getting rid of that sucker.
Xbox Live Gamertag - Yoreel
Steam id - [GWJ] Yoreel
I forsee a lot of experimentation. The idea will be a free taste turned into a buy, rather than shuffle around an extisting copy. Remember Steam allows transfers for a fee, and Stardock is experimenting with buying back licenses.
I think it will become more standard for multiplayer games to have a free 2 week trial very soon after launch. Or more timed demos for single player like PopCap(like 2 hours of gameplay). Maybe more refer-a friend coupons and deals like with Demigod.
Remember, the ultimate goal we all should have is more people playing the game, for a lower cost to the consumer, with better revenue for the developers or publishers. The reason we look at used games and renting is that new games are too damned expensive without 50, 60 dollars worth of value in our eyes. And they stay at that price because disc based games have razor thin profit margins.
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Somewhere along the way, and maybe it has always been this way, software has turned into a "license" instead of an "item" that I own. Is there a fair trade here, or does it only have upside for the software companies? Does this mean if I destroy the media and I download a copy from the web that is OK because I still own the license? If I destroy the media do I lose the license?
Also, did I mention VYPER DRIVE!!!?
The unenforceable part comes from not being able to see the "I agree" button, or even read the EULA to see if it's written clearly until you've broken the shrink wrap, making the software nonreturnable. How much luck do you think you'll have getting Best Buy to give you a cash refund on your open game because you don't want to agree to the EULA? Steam (and I imagine most, if not all digital download stores) averts this whole issue by having their EULA saying you can't transfer your license pop up before you finalize the sale.
merphle wrote:
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XBox Live
Okay, so I've read pretty much every single post and I think some people don't actually get what I'm proposing.
A lot of people seem to be implying that it would be a nightmare for companies to transfer licenses.
1) I'm sorry, but if Microsoft is able to transfer your licenses from one Xbox to another, they certainly can transfer it from one XBox Live account to another.
) and sell them back in exchange for credit on new games. Hell, I'm selling my 360 games I'm done with in preparation of the PS3 price drop that's probably coming up later this year. I already have 150$ worth of games resold. Stuff that would have just stayed in my library and accumulate dust. Now I can use that to finance other purchases. By going all the way digital and not allowing resell would force a lot of people to buy less stuff.
2) A few of you said that it would be complicated to track because of sales and what not? So what? If you are reselling one week later at a higher price, more power to you. That's a legal business and is done all the time in the real world. Ever heard of stocks or Wall Street? If Valve wants to prevent people buying bulk licenses, simply limit your account to have one license of a game at a time.
3) Don't forget that a lot of people buy new sales (EDIT: I mean games, should have proofed read this first
XBL : CrazyJF
I've apparently downloaded and installed F.E.A.R. from direct2drive too many times and it no longer works. I'm a weird person who uninstalls and reinstalls a lot.
EDIT: per the original discussion - companies see the no-resale aspect of downloadable games as an important difference from retail. If they could convince every customer, I'd bet every console would use downloadable games only.
Personally I hate trading in games, I want to own them forever.
SteamID: mrwynd Starcraft 2: mrwynd.954 Diablo 3: MrWynd#1658 How to record a video game
The key thing you are missing is that the ability to transfer games (whether physical copies or digital licenses) results in higher prices on new games. Companies can make up for the lack of ability to resell with lower prices on new games. If they add the ability to resell, thereby limiting their profit potential on some of the copies that they sell, they have to charge more for the new game to make up the difference. I'd rather just pay the lower prices up front, and not have the ability to resell, than pay higher prices and be essentially forced to resell my games if I want the lower prices.
XBL: The Counselar PSN: TheCounselor Steam: http://steamcommunity.com/id/TheCounselor
"You realise that you're questioning the internal logic of a game in which a fat plumber rides a dinosaur in space?" Jonman
With the Steam weekend deals I come for the price, that is mostly why I commit to the purchase, but I stay for the knowledge that the developer of the game I am about to enjoy is actually getting some scratch for their product. I don't think it's unethical to buy used (some in games media seem to think it is, GWK excluded) but I don't mind a price which is both fair in my mind and keeps the cogs greased.
Everything that starts out as a cultural revolution ends up as capitalist routine.
-David Brooks
Direct to Drive is a very good service. Downloads always available once you buy the game.
dire
Dog would have caught the rabbit if he hadn't stopped to pee.