Warhammer Early Level (1-8) Class Roles
I just thought I'd start the discussion on impressions of class roles in WAR. More specifically lets talk about what they got very right and one way I would fix the one manageable flaw.
Caster Healers - (Zealot, Rune Priest, Archmage, Shaman) are strong enough at healing that they can turn any class into a tank against mini-bosses. Yes, they can even make themselves "tank" though they won't be able to do anything other than heal themselves. (which is usually enough to hold aggro) It is tough to kill these guys in scenario RvR unless they are only paying attention to someone else's health or you are a group of ranged DPS or a single melee DPS
Melee Healers - (War Priest, Disciple of Khaine) are probably best suited to healing themselves as tank but can adequately heal tanks and melee DPS as tanks. So far most of the heals are over time so a concentrated effort of 2-3 can overcome them. It is usually best to kill their support first.
Melee DPS - so far mini-boss tanking for them is a trade off. You kill the target faster but its more strain on your healer. As long as the target is alone or its attention is elsewhere, melee DPS will have no problems killing lots of things in scenario RvR.
Tank - (Black Orc, Chosen, Swordmaster, Ironbreaker) stand up well to mini-bosses but really see a boost in killing speed with melee or ranged DPS support. The healer won't need to heal you much so they can play offense for most of the fight. In scenario RvR they harass everybody because they take a concerted effort to kill. Unfortunately, most or your targets in RvR will be killed by someone else or they will jump off the wall and suicide. The bright side is that 2-3 tanks dictates where the battle line is which is extremely useful when capping objectives. If you need anybody to clear the room, these guys are it.
The Flaw
RvR out in the open. (non-scenario) Given any amount of open space 100 ft or greater and Ranged DPS will dominate. They seem to travel to a perch in packs of at least 3, picking off any class with one salvo before the target can get a swing off.
My solution? Melee classes have a pull skill that does a small fraction of the damage of a normal skill. Mythic should make that skill do significant damage or give it a special property. (%knockdown, %disrupt, spell damage reflect, brief silence)
The only other thing I worry about WAR is that the classes are great in PvE too but the questing is greatly overshadowed by the public quests. This is a problem in that PQ's are great, but as has been mentioned before, a lot of them go undiscovered or you don't have a healer or don't have sufficient players to complete them. Also most of the time, the players are non-grouped zergs. PQ's are nice but they aren't a complete replacement for good instanced dungeons.
Being fangoriously devoured by a gelatinous monster.
Have you tried a stealth class? You could sneak up all the way to them without them being able to get a shot off. Then at that close range, you would absolutely dominate them.
Jadawin wrote:
In scenarios what you suggest can work, but in open RVR with 20+ people on a side both stealth classes are candy. If they go behind the front lines they're not getting out. They "might" take a caster down, but if people are paying attention they're snared and blasted into oblivion.
Gamer Tag: Rantyr
But then the issue isn't that the ranged classes can kill you before you get to them, but rather other people are preventing you from getting to them (thus allowing the ranged classes to kill you). To me that suggests that different tactics need to be used.
Jadawin wrote:
The only bit that i can think of that can combat that is a group of tanks with multiple healers for each one to push on through. Still that works just for so long then the other side pushes back.
The fights in Praag are annoying because it's just back/forth to each others spawns. It's literally a case of the nukers clearing the way and which ever side has the most beneficial healers at the moment is the side that pushes through.
Gamer Tag: Rantyr
Isn't this the same problem in any MMO?
Put 3 mages together in WoW and they'll pick off any single target in a matter of seconds. Heck, we saw the same thing during the infamous WoW "Battle for Hillsbrad/Tarren Mill" days.
Of course, we'd break the front lines of the horde (I played Alliance back then, the shame, the shame!) by sneaking 4-5 rogues into Tarren Mill. Upon command, they'd unleash hell on the nearest caster class. As the melee turned to kill the rogues, everyone would charge into the horde line. The 4-5 rogues would be dead, but we'd break the horde line.
I am so going to quote that out of context.
The comments about ranged DPS owning in open RvR just brings back so many bad memories of early DAoC (I played for about the first 6 months after release, so some of this may have been changed later). My main char there was a Midgard warrior. There were only a small handful of times when I had fun RvR'ing with that character:
1. Doing the battlegrounds when they first came out; sometimes we would circle way the heck around the river and come up behind the enemies lines when they were waiting at a bridge, and take out a slew of mages and priests before they knew what was up.
2. Doing the keep assaults where you just needed a huge horde of meleers bashing at the portcullis or whatever.
3. A group of 3 of us around level 20ish taking on an Albion Priest around level 30ish over and over again. He just wouldn't learn.
Other than that, RvR in DAoC as a melee character essentially followed one of these 2 paths:
A. Your big group of Midgard guys would see a big group of Hibernians off in the distance. As you begin to think about what you're going to do, you die to the concentrated firepower of 100 elven wizards.
B. You're out in one of the contested zones (forget what they were called - frontier?) and notice you or someone in your group is taking damage. Oh look over there, it's a lurikreen archer shooting you full of arrows. You futilely try to chase him down, only to have him run just as fast as you and stay about 5 feet away, only to turn invisible on you and get away even though he's out in the freaking wide open and you should be able to litterally touch him. A few seconds later he begins plinking you with arrows again, you find him, run to him, repeat ad nauseum.
Has Mythic done anything to prevent this kind of crap from happening in WAR? I'll admit I haven't really been following it all that closely. I was kind of turned off by how lackluster I found DAoC to be.
Oh I almost forgot the third scenario:
C. You and your band of badass norse brethren are about to cleave some enemy skulls. Suddenly, everyone on your side is frozen in place while the enemy's meleers lay into you. You die 2.3 seconds later.
Grumsh, Troll Mage on Blackhand
Kroe, Tauren Hunter on Blackhand
Khoram's Workshop
From my experience of T1 and T2 open RvR, most of the situations you described above don't really happen.
There is not much Crowd Control or use of spells that makes you lose control of you character. I think that is awesome.
There is no overpowered Stealth use. There are classes that have Stealth ability but they can only use it for a short time and that drains your Action Points and you need that to perform any sort of attack. So Infiltrators "gankings" does not exist.
Classes in this game are very durable actually. It takes a lot of effort to bring down a healer for example. Tanks backed up by healers are almost unstoppable if you don't have the opposition concentrating fire on the tank or the healer.
Ranged DPS still have an edge on mellees though.
But again, these are my experiences from the Preview Weekend only and I have no idea if this holds true in higher Tiers.
XBL/PSN Gamertag: KillTrash
t1 and t2 no, but t3 and t4 that's all it is... jump on the test server you'll see. I've played both sides and it's pretty much the same thing.
Gamer Tag: Rantyr
Yea not sure if this is exactly a solvable problem once you start getting into larger and larger numbers. Range is always going to have a huge advantage especially when theres any kind of coordination to targets. WoW was even horrible to a degree in AV where there was enough AoE classes you could just form mage/warlock teams that would just AoE bomb their way down the road.
I'm just honestly hoping theres more to the large RvR stuff then smashing lines against each other. Even if you didn't like AV there were multiple ways to play the map that you could be a positive force without being part of head to head zerg.
I also see this only as a long term problem that they can fix later after release. If the game has enough polish and content I think people can stand the simplicity of the type of PvP they are involved in at first. Fast forward a couple months though and I'm not sure how motivated people will be to logon to play the RvR/PvP if it just boils down to strategic ramming into each other.
This is going to seem really out there, but I think one of my favorite PvP (or RvR) experiences was Planetside. I played some DAoC, a good bit of WoW, and I participated in the WAR Preview weekend. None of those three games really came close to having a real advantage to being in a coordinated squad like Planetside did. In Planetside, my outfit had SOPs for tower taking, defense, base breaching, etc. Teamwork was exceptionall important and it made a small group of people extremely effective, even in the face of overwhelming enemy opponents.
I keep thinking about that experience and trying to figure out where DAoC, WoW, and WAR are lacking. This is all just high level theory crafting about WAR and what I think is the ideal MMOPvP game.
1) Outside of some minor differences, all three realms in Planetside had the same basic equipment and gear. Your level did not limit your ability to use something, it just limited the breadth of versatility of your soldier in the field. Basically, an almost level playing field. WAR seems to get closer, and time will tell if this happens one it is released. In Planetside, you would not run into someone who was stronger, faster, and better than you in every way. This is where I see WoW really falling down with PvP.
2) The battlefields are a mess. WoW and WAR both seem to have the idea that the best place to fight is a huge, open field. In Planetside, fighting in a skirmish in the open was a huge no-no. Fight on objectives. Don't fight in the roads. And a large part of this problem is that WoW, WAR, and DAoC don't offer transportation that allows for maneuvering. In Planetside, we often had lots of air positioning to get drop-ships to a base, or complex cat-and-mouse driving of troop carriers to get people to the objectives. I feel like WAR, WoW, etc, are all just a huge open field that everyone runs on. This means there is an advantage to being a loner and hoping you don't get picked off. There is no reason to band together because people will just focus fire you down. I guess it's like fighting in pre-revolutionary war days where everyone just runs at each other.
3) There's no tactical or strategic tools in the game. As a squad leader in Planetside, I could set waypoints, and give people some basic instructions like "Take WP1 tower!" and people would do it (if you were in a coordinated group). You can tell people to do things in WoW, but seeing a huge waypoint on your screen is much better than "Take RH!" "What's RH?" "Relief Hut!" "Where is that?" Even in PUGs, it was possible to do some basic things with the tools that helped people out. It wasn't perfect, but it made things easier.
4) Planetside did not have the concept of tanks (ok, they had tanks, but they were tank tanks, with treads and stuff). Everything was about suppression and damage. I realize WoW is a PvE game first and foremost. I *love* PvE. But WAR seems to have tanks as some kind of vestigial PvE idea. It's a step in the right direction, I think. It just needs to go a little farther.
Collision is a huge help here since in Planetside, it meant having a vehicle between you and a bad guy was saving your but. I just wish people between me and a caster in WAR would soak the hits and not just pass through them harmlessly. DOH! If I can't hide behind the big guy with all the health, what good is he?
5) Population controls. WAR doesn't seem to have them. In Planetside, each "island" had pop-locks to keep the ratio of enemies in check for good fights. Sometimes it sucked, but it mean that one side having the lions share of players did not lead to an imbalance. Some people have told me that WAR won't repeat the Alliance/Horde issue of PvP imbalance, but I get the impression that most people who are really looking to fight seriously will go with Destruction. Maybe I am wrong, but if I am not, I don't understand how the game will force more fair fights in the non-scenario style RvR and PvP.
To sum up, I really like the idea of a PvP centric game. But, I feel like organization and good teamwork will not be a huge influence in WAR, based on the RvR I did over the weekend in the elf area. I'm willing to admit I don't know as much about WAR as I do about Planetside. It would be nice to be wrong.
-Bad Mojo
And man that dog looks like he's having a good time, but that monkey is f*cking into it. This isn't his recreation; this is his life and he knows it in a way I will never know anything. --Danjo Olivaw
Tanks in Planetside were the MAXes. And they did exactly what they were supposed to: break the stalemate and move the line of battle.
WAR's population controls are only as good as the fervor in RvR is renewed. But I don't see how its any different in Planetside. The Vanu were habitually under represented and picked on by the two other factions.
Being fangoriously devoured by a gelatinous monster.
#2 and #3 are represented in WAR. You have your objectives that you're gunning for and there's guild abilities that supposed to help coordinate your guild warband.
Gamer Tag: Rantyr
I was not part of a guild, so I missed out on that part. I still don't see how running in a huge gaggle of people is going to help take objectives.
-Bad Mojo
And man that dog looks like he's having a good time, but that monkey is f*cking into it. This isn't his recreation; this is his life and he knows it in a way I will never know anything. --Danjo Olivaw
People fight on the objectives. When people are talking about open RvR they're objective oriented. If you're in a gaggle fighting for a objective you're more likely to live than going solo. If the other side shows up you have a fight that can go back and forth. If not you have the equivalent of a PQ pve raid (even with loot at the end).
Gamer Tag: Rantyr
I spent most of the weekend fighting in the entrance to the RvR area in the High Elf starting area. Because there was no way to break the enemies zerg sitting at the entrance to the area. I think that having some kind of transportation to get to an objective would help eliminate those situations.
I realize it was just the preview weekend. But, I was a little disappointed with how RvR worked. I spent a lot of time frustrated that nothing happened except my side/party dying over and over. I'll shut up, this seems too OT for this thread.
-Bad Mojo
And man that dog looks like he's having a good time, but that monkey is f*cking into it. This isn't his recreation; this is his life and he knows it in a way I will never know anything. --Danjo Olivaw
Here's a bit from the Gamespy journal of their writers' week in the beta that makes the strategic possibilities sound very cool. The situations in this scenario involve some choke points where a smaller force can pound on a larger force
That whole war journal was a great read by the way. 5 gamespy staffers played Warhammer for a week and kept track of their impressions. Its 27 pages that completely sold me on Warhammer as a day 1 purchase.
ThePolypusher
WAR - Dolz
That will be great though on launch to get GWJ and CP to make a war party and scout out a hotly contested open RvR zone. If we could roll 24 peeps as a well mixed unit, win or lose, we could put our name on the map and get good xp, renown and loot to boot.
Being fangoriously devoured by a gelatinous monster.
The idea is to get open objectives and take them down. You get 500 renown for taking an objective and another 500 for defending it for 3min. probably the quickest way to level your renown rank.
Gamer Tag: Rantyr
Yes, what Ranalin says.
Basically the people indulging in purposeless open field RvR are bored and don't care about winning objectives. If you're in an organized group find something else to do, fighting to no purpose is basically pointless. If they're camped out in front of your warcamp go a different direction.
Killing enemy players is worth some renown but taking objectives and keeps is worth much more. Better to find an organized group and go do something else. That's why it's nice to have a guild.
Elysium wrote:
Shawn Elliott wrote:
Nice comparison to Planetside. Ah, my first MMO, my first love
In that game I was in an outfit called the Devil Dogs, and so many times we prevailed against steep odds simply because we were coordinated and focused.
Perhaps that is one of the factors that draws me so much to WAR. Group tactics and coordination will win the day versus the zerg horde. I saw a fair bit of open RvR in closed beta, and yes, it's easy to lay the hate on ranged dps. And with zerg fighting it's true, ranged attacks do seem uber. You run in, only to get focus-fired down. RDPS will rule ... if you let them.
However, in the rare instances I got to participate in open RvR with a good group, using Vent, we owned
Ranged attackers will scatter if you charge them, they generally run like the game has a death penalty (it doesn't). The trick is capitalize on the rout, and press in with melee dps, support and tanks.
"History is'a made at night! Character is what you are in the dark!" - Lord John Whorfin
That does work and i've been part of groups like that but when you push them back to their spawn in the capital cities it's real easy for them to do counter pushes. So you spend the day like a yo-yo pushing them back taking the capital but not able to defend it and getting pushed back to your own spawn to try it again.
My biggest complaint for the game now.
Gamer Tag: Rantyr
Agreed. When running the enemy back to their keep, or war camp, it would often bounce back. Champion and hero class guard mobs would aggro and folks would scatter like leaves in the wind. Most of the RvR that took place in the closed beta testing, as well as the preview weekend, was like that for me . But I think the results were caused more by the fact that even though there were numerous players on the field, they were not organized.
Remove the zerg and populate the field of battle with multiple organized guilds, using voice chat. Completely different story. At least that's what I am hoping
"History is'a made at night! Character is what you are in the dark!" - Lord John Whorfin
Same here. If not then i'll drop this one too.
Gamer Tag: Rantyr
I was in HMX-1. Ah the good old days...
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-Bad Mojo
And man that dog looks like he's having a good time, but that monkey is f*cking into it. This isn't his recreation; this is his life and he knows it in a way I will never know anything. --Danjo Olivaw
Do the NPCs try and take it back over after a while? Or does the objective reset daily? hourly? half-daily?
Being fangoriously devoured by a gelatinous monster.
Battlefield objectives are guarded by elite mobs. Kill them off and take the point. Once 15 minutes (15 ish? give or take) have elapsed, mobs from your side will spawn and defend the point. They remain under your realm's control until the enemy takes it back.
"History is'a made at night! Character is what you are in the dark!" - Lord John Whorfin
That journal really got my blood flowing. It makes Warhammer's combat feel more organic than the standard WoW offering.
"Three blokes go into a pub. One of them is kind of stupid, and the whole scene unfolds with a tedious inevitability." - Bill Bailey
I have been toying about with Warhammer. I think a lot of the problem with ranged attackers will be somewhat mitigated by the fact that an organized group using tanks can push fairly well. Tanks get an ability called "hold the line" which essentially makes it so that they and everyone in their group behind them take less damage. I believe this stacks between multiple tanks for the group behind them. It isn't a complete damage reduction (I want to say it might cap at 45% if there are 3 tanks) but it's enough to hopefully get your group on top of the enemy line with enough health to actually make a difference.
After experiencing it on both side as a tank and as a caster... Doesn't make much of a difference. Yea you notice it when they're using, but there's so much combined dps being unleashed it just doesn't matter.
Gamer Tag: Rantyr