Talking to Pirates
Thursday, August 14th, 2008 - 1:22pm
An indie developer in the UK decided to actually ask people why they pirated his game. Apparently, he got an earful and then some, and here's his summary of the response. Very interesting results - turns out that price is a pretty big deal, and that gamers feel that demos and the game press are essentially useless for predicting game goodness.
Remember: this conversation is just between you and me ... and the NSA.
MaverickDago wrote:
Only commies pee "urine" or the devils cocktail as we call it, real Americans exude cold crisp light beer.



Its a good publicity stunt. You gotta do what you gotta do
ThePolypusher
WAR - Dolz
He got his name and product out there, and his response to the responses were that he was pleasantly surprised. The people that steal just because they won't get caught, or because it's some fascist oppression, were just a minority. He's complimenting gamers and pirates alike
bnpederson wrote:
I read it this morning, and spread it around the office (only the gamers ofc). And we all agreed that this is indeed a good first step. And we wish that more dev. will follow suit.
Decisions are just decisions, there are neither "good" or "bad"
LobsterMobster wrote:
I found this rather refreshing in its rational approach to a wide spread problem. Kudos for him. Heh. Kudos.
The brain you stole, Fritz. Think of it. The brain of a dead man waiting to live again in a body I made with my own hands!
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See Elysium Stir The Pot: I think this is a terrible precedent to set. Talk to customers or people who would've been your customers but chose otherwise. These people haven't earned a say in my book. I feel like this just gives people an opportunity to legitimize their justifications for piracy, and reinforces that they are taking a productive approach to any issues they might have had.
"I think Elysium has the right of it" - Certis
I counter, how else would you learn their motivations? Yes, it may give some a sense of legitimization, but those that feel that already have self deluded such a sense. See his 5% respondents with politcal/moronic overtones. The gained information is much more valuable than the small amount of harm caused. That said, this should nto be a regular occurance, and should only be used to correct economic/marketing mistakes that have lead to this situation.
The brain you stole, Fritz. Think of it. The brain of a dead man waiting to live again in a body I made with my own hands!
http://isisless.deviantart.com/
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So if you want to find out why people chose not to become customers, who would you talk to?
MechaSlinky wrote:
-on L4DI agree with the Rock, Paper, Shotgun blog post that him lowering the price might not be as good an idea in the long run. Pirates still might not be convinced that being honest beats being free, and regular consumers have the psychological roadblock that sees a lower-priced title as evidence that it is shovelware. And this is a real truth of a marketplace. When I was still working for a marketing agency, we once had a game publisher consider different price options, until all our focus testing game back with people less interested in the same game at a lower price, because they associated anything less then $60 as something that had lower quality.
And I know my opinion on this matter has been all to familar around here, but I agree with Elysium. When you take all the complaints together, it amounts to the same lame excuse pirates already use: Let me play your game for free for as long as I want, and only then will I decide if I want to pay for it.
EDIT: That said, I do agree that making it easier to buy games online in a simple manner is a major key in preventing casual piracy.
I would think the first rule of PR is to ignore forum people, because they vacillate between crazy and liar. - Elysium
That sounds similar to the new NiN model.
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Elysium, the George W Bush of software terrorism. hehe.
There's at least anecdotal evidence that a lower price works but my example might be a bit situational. ESPN NFL Football was priced at $50 and did not do well compared to Madden that year. NFL 2k5 was priced at $20 and reportedly sold 10x as many copies as its previous year.
vgchartz.com shows NFL 2k5 sold about 3.4 million copies across PS2 and Xbox but it doesn't have data for ESPN NFL Football. I'd love to find a site with more data than vgchartz.
I think the difference might be having a known brand release at a lower price, and an unknown brand doing it. If you're known, you get anyone who was resistant about throwing down $60 on your previous title to jump in; hesitation based on fear of shovelware shouldn't come in to play if your company has been known to release quality games. If you're not known and can't -get- known by the time your release rolls around, maybe your game does look shovelware-ish. Demos and marketing can change that though.
ThePolypusher
WAR - Dolz
On a slightly different note, I didn't realize there was a Democracy 2, though I had a good bit of fun with the first game. I can't find a review thread, has anyone played it?
private String paula = "Brillant";
I only played the demo. Which ended after one turn(!), so I never got a feel for the game and drifted on to other stuff, alas. I too enjoyed the first democracy, and would like to hear opinions if anyone's got 'em.
"The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all."
Good read and a good case study by him. It really is a shame that only a select people can get onto Steam because I really feel that cuts out a lot of piracy and is (to me) the least evasive form of DRM.
Thanks for standin' still Wanker!
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haha, That was my first thought too!
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I don't really know much about this, but it seems like it would be wiser to adjust your practice based on actual research. I think it's obvious that the majority of respondents would cite various reasonable sounding excuses for piracy, because they're the ones who feel that their reasons are worth proclaiming. "I pirate because I want things but don't want to pay anything" is not exactly something that one would feel compelled to proclaim. "I pirate because of some grand notion" is the sort of soapbox reason someone may want to brag about.
I think the idea of doing real market research to determine why people pirate and altering your business model to address it is wise. I think asking people why they pirate is probably not going to get you very accurate results.
xbl y3llow5 | steam yellow#5 | PSN ForrestTheWicked
Yar!
Fedaykin98 wrote:
wordsmythe wrote:
The article was interesting but I don't trust the developer. I'm still active over at Blue's News and he is too. He's regularly gone on very hostile and often infantile tirades against not only the people on that site who try to rationalize piracy (who I don't agree with) but also those of us who just protest against invasive DRM measures that don't work. He's called us all matter of offensive names and literally said there that anyone who has a problem with DRM is just a thief. He's projecting a very different persona in the article and I'm taking it with mountainous piles of salt.
"We're taught from a young age how to dodge rock hard objects moving at incredible rates of speed while simultaneously beating folks half to death with sticks. We do this for fun." -kung fu grip
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Maybe it's just me but it seems painfully obvious that a large percentage of this "research" is based on guilt-ridden, white-washed lying? You're assuming that these pirates are actually telling you the truth as opposed to just masking the ease of blatantly stealing software. The only thing that surprised me was the gullibility of Mr. Harris.
I played it through several times, it really is very refined after a bunch of patches now. In short:
You are given several scenarios of fictitious countries in different situations. You have a country with health problems, pollution, riots and alcoholism etc. Or a very progressive country with high budget deficit you need to lower. You receive an amount of action points each quarter with which you can enforce new policies (or cancel existing ones). The amount of action points is derived from the support of both the electorate and loyalty of your ministers, so you want to appease them. Disturbing policies such as raising taxes or cancelling pensions are costly. The policies also take time to fully get working, so if you change education system, it may take three years before you see the benefits. You can choose how much money you invest into policies, you have a slider that shows both the cost (or, in the case of taxes, income) and the change of attitude of different groups of voters. The very middle of the screen shows you both the attitude of different groups toward you and their share in the total population. If you know that you don't have many patriots in your country, you don't care about upsetting them by allowing freer immigration. On the other hand with highly religious country you would think twice about abolishing the teaching of creationism.
The best thing in my view is the fact that the game actually uses neural network for modelling the behavior of your electorate. The voters are in various categories at once (they can be both drivers and smokers, or rich and pensioners) but have different affinities towards their "pigeonholes". E.g. they can be moderate patriots, but staunch ecologists and will react as such towards your policies - anti-patriotic acts will not change their attitude as much as anti-eco acts. And the game lists all of your voters with their characteristics, so you can read about them and react accordingly.
The game has a learning curve of about half an hour to hour, but if you like to try different "what if" scenarios, it's much fun. I usually try to build almost libertarian country - low taxes, little in the way of bans, etc., but it's pretty difficult not to get assassinated by either patriots or ecologists in the process
Also, as of now, it is DRM-less, so you don't have to type in the serial number (which was the only check, actually).
Oh, I forgot, you can also piss off people by not fulfilling your election promises, which I find quite unrealistic, because in real life people don't even remember the promises, let alone check for their fulfillment. In game, it's therefore easier to just leave some changes (lowering taxes or pollution) for the next period, so you can fulfill the promises easily. You should probably try out the demo and see if you like it. Compared to the first Democracy it's really a great step forward and due to neural networks it's also less deterministic.
You can't take the sky from me.
It could be that it took this to change his mind. He did remove the DRM from his games and scrapped plans to use it on his new game, or at least so he says. Time will tell, I guess.
Remember: this conversation is just between you and me ... and the NSA.
MaverickDago wrote:
His sample was also only representative of those pirates who care enough to actually respond to his question.
I don't buy the "I pirate because of invasive DRM!" argument. Wasn't invasive DRM invented because of piracy? If no one pirated games before DRM, why would they have put DRM in games in the first place? I don't think getting rid of DRM is a feasable solution for large scale developers, though I see how it can work for indie devs as a marketing ploy to boost street cred.
The Price/Game quality argument makes a lot more sense, but it isn't really something you can do much about. "Oh really? I should make my games better and cheaper? Why didn't I think of that??"
I don't think this sets a dangerous precedent, since what motivates this dude to do this informal poll is much different than what dictates the business practices of the vast majority of game devs.
Morrolan wrote:
XBLA / Steam: Dysplastic
Exactly. I would take his results to mean only 5% of respondents were honest.
It reminds me of some poll I saw a while ago from a dev asking about how much their users would pay for an XBLA title (I think, I could be getting the details wrong). It was posed basically as: "would you rather pay $5, $10, or $15 for this title?". I'm sure we could all guess the results of that poll.
xbl y3llow5 | steam yellow#5 | PSN ForrestTheWicked
It's probably a good exercise for him to run through, even independent of piracy. I was interested in Kudos and didn't buy it. Of course, I didn't pirate it either. Reading his article, he's pretty close to identifying why I haven't bought Kudos. The demo was really short, the game was just over my impulse buy price threshold for something that seemed like a solid B-, and it was neither on steam or available in stores (I tend to be skeptical of new digital distribution). If Kudos had been $10-15 on Steam or $10 in a DRM-free direct purchase, I'd own a copy already. Upping the price and releasing a similarly locked-down version of Kudos 2 would have probably led to another lost sale.
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You forgot to plug your recent Escapist article on the subject.
Elysium: The democratization of the web ... has installed an illusion of a digital first amendment that protects speech no matter how poorly spelled or stupid.
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I hate the "information wants to be free!" argument. If they were hijacking airwaves to release redacted documents outlining clearly illegal practices by the government, that'd be one thing, but in this context it sounds like they're just trying to neutralize the act of theft. What they're doing isn't noble or beneficial. They aren't anarchists breaking down the walls of control that keep us obedient little sheeple. They're just stealing something because they don't want to pay for it. I've got a lot more respect for the pirates who say they steal games because they're too expensive. At least they're honest.
NOTE: This is not a doodle bug.
Spore
Maybe but judging by the tone of his responses in the Blue's News thread for this story, I don't think his view has changed much. Maybe it's just on that site due to its very high population of piracy apologists.
"We're taught from a young age how to dodge rock hard objects moving at incredible rates of speed while simultaneously beating folks half to death with sticks. We do this for fun." -kung fu grip
http://blog.digital-lifeline.ca
I actually missed that article and just now had a chance to look at it. It mirrors my view on piracy almost exactly. Then I made the mistake of clicking on the comments button. Man, and I thought Blue's News was bad for piracy apologists. It's truly amazing what people will wrap something in to convince themselves they're doing the right thing.
"We're taught from a young age how to dodge rock hard objects moving at incredible rates of speed while simultaneously beating folks half to death with sticks. We do this for fun." -kung fu grip
http://blog.digital-lifeline.ca
I really, REALLY hate justification for "piracy." I don't judge anyone for doing it, however... I just get annoyed by the lame excuses for doing it.
There seem to be a few "real" reasons for why someone would "pirate" a game-- lost disc, want a crack to avoid keeping the disc in the drive, etc. I'd even go so far as to say getting something that is not commercially available (e.g. bootleg music) might fall into this category.
But the TRUE explanation for a vast majority of people IMHO is "I want it, I don't want to pay for it, and I can easily acquire it with little risk."
As for DRM not being a factor... well, tell that to Apple, Amazon, and most of the major music publishers. Most have abandoned their attempts at DRM, since DRM only really ever bothers the paying customer.
Price, at least for me, IS a factor. I rarely buy anything from iTunes... but I had a "friend" *cough* who bought a lot of music from AllofMP3.com. Even though nearly any music can be had for free online, there was still value in the ability to find exactly what you were looking for AND purchase exactly the QUALITY you wanted (CBR, VBR, 128, 192, lossless, etc.). I've yet to see ANY "legal" site offer the same level of customization.
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