Location: Deep in the heart of Texas... Houston that is...
Friday, August 8th, 2008 - 9:59am
That is just scary, Russia is on the move. I wonder if we should help out our allies but then we are moving toward WW3.
Xfire: Pharacon
Tempest says: "A team hat doe snot communicate and talk to each other about what the next move will be is going to lose."
Mex is my hero = "f*ck it, I'll do it. WE'LL DO IT LIVE."
I'm puzzled by the perception of American interest in regards to Georgia. Whatever our geopolitical gain is by our relationship with Georgia, I seriously doubt it justifies intervening on their behalf. The Russians will almost certainly demonstrate significant political will when it comes to affecting the politics and policies of an adjacent neighbor. We would be wise to keep out of that.
This is the internet! In our natural environment, atheists run in packs and have dictionaries! --- JoeBeDurndurn
Location: At the far end of town, where the Grickle-grass grows
Friday, August 8th, 2008 - 10:25am
I'd say a headline like, "Russia Invades Georgia" is a bit more accurate.
A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him, than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word "darkness" on the wall of his cell.
-CS Lewis
I'm confused...I was checking CNN and some stories suggested Georgia started it, and some suggested Russia started it. We've been moving over the past week, so I'm way out of the loop. Where does "the finger" need to point?
Location: At the far end of town, where the Grickle-grass grows
Friday, August 8th, 2008 - 10:31am
The Georgian government has been having some issues with a small Russian backed separatist movement in South Ossetia. Russia decided to send troops in to "keep the peace" and obviously that has not gone over well. There was a recent attack on a Russian barracks in Georgia and Russia, who has been amassing troops near the border under the guise of "training exercises" waiting for a reason to go in, is using the attack as a pretext for invasion.
A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him, than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word "darkness" on the wall of his cell.
-CS Lewis
Reportedly, the hostilities have started when a sniper positioned nearby Georgian border control outpost opened fire at South Ossetian checkpoint across the border and nailed a policeman. A sporadic fire that was returned from South Ossetian side was immediately responded to from Georgian side with heavy machinegun fire. Overnight, rocket artillery and heavy mortars joined in.
(Russia claims that Georgia just recently took a delivery of a total of about 500 units of sniper rifles from USA and Ukraine. Georgia hasn't commented on that).
A column of Russian tanks and APCs has rolled from Russia into South Ossetia from the north and Russian jets were seen over the territory. At the same time a Georgian infantry division and a convoy of tanks has approached the south border of the region. An intense shelling of Tshinvali (SO capital) by Georgian troops has continued trhoughout the last few days. SO troops made an incursion into Georgian territory to suppress the Georgian artillery.
Realistically, Georgia cannot hope to retake the region, because Russia will take full part in the conflict and will have no difficulty in repelling Georgia. Local population is vastly pro-Russia, and the majority of it indeed is recognized as Russian citizenry. Saakashvili's intent is probably to drag Russia and SO to a U.N.-monitored negotiation table where USA and UK will play a role and will pressure SO into accepting some form of autonomy but give up hopes for independence.
I'm puzzled by the perception of American interest in regards to Georgia. Whatever our geopolitical gain is by our relationship with Georgia, I seriously doubt it justifies intervening on their behalf. The Russians will almost certainly demonstrate significant political will when it comes to affecting the politics and policies of an adjacent neighbor. We would be wise to keep out of that.
I'm with Paleocon here. This is between the EU and Russia. America has next to no business in this conflict unless of course it makes it is business.
Nomad wrote:
I'd say a headline like, "Russia Invades Georgia" is a bit more accurate.
Yeah but I was concerned about adding in the Ossetia factor which complicates things greatly. I'll change it to something more neutral but I'd be more in Georgia's camp on this one.
Realistically, Georgia cannot hope to retake the region, because Russia will take full part in the conflict and will have no difficulty in repelling Georgia. Local population is vastly pro-Russia, and the majority of it indeed is recognized as Russian citizenry. Saakashvili's intent is probably to drag Russia and SO to a U.N.-monitored negotiation table where USA and UK will play a role and will pressure SO into accepting some form of autonomy but give up hopes for independence.
I suspect that that is more than a small miscalculation and that the Russians are more than aware of it. With American troops locked up in the fiasco in the desert, UN distrust of American influence, and the EU dependent on Russian oil, I suspect all parties will reach the inevitable conclusion that attempting to wrest Georgia out of the Russian sphere of influence is/was an example of geopolitical strategic overreach.
This is the internet! In our natural environment, atheists run in packs and have dictionaries! --- JoeBeDurndurn
Saakashvili's intent is probably to drag Russia and SO to a U.N.-monitored negotiation table where USA and UK will play a role and will pressure SO into accepting some form of autonomy but give up hopes for independence.
And if he gets there, Abkhazia will be on the negotiation list too. This is becoming a chronic problem between Georgia and Russia. To be fair, both areas have large ethnic Russian populations, but they are internationally recognized Georgian territory, and the Russians don't seem to care.
dejanzie- "Let's say Stephen Hawking is after your new pc, and your porn is backed up- would you find it wrong to shoot him?"
LiquidMantis- "Hell no. I'd push over his wheelchair then teabag him while shouting, 'Here's your universe in a nutshell!'"
@ Nomad:
What happens at this point can be characterized as is "Georgia is bombarding a city within an unrecognized region". They're shelling civilians. Nobody even tries to dispute that. Watch BCC coverage.
Russian troops entering the region with the declared goal of protection of Russian population (estimated 80% of everyone living in the region ) should sound plausible enough to anyone in USA who didn't mind US toppling a regime in Grenada to protect 20 American students who happened to be there.
Short historical background. Ossetia consists of two parts, North and South. The was division is arbitrarily introduced by Joseph Stalin, when he drew up the borders of the USSR republics -- North went into Russia, South into Georgia (other instances of his macabre, evil genius like that are all over the post-USSR map). Ethnically, Ossetians are closer to Russia. They're more Slav in appearance and unlike other people of Northern Caucasus (say, Chechnya), they profess Russian Orthodox Christianity. Look at this Wikipedia article, it gives a great deal of details about the present conflict.
And if he gets there, Abkhazia will be on the negotiation list too. This is becoming a chronic problem between Georgia and Russia. To be fair, both areas have large ethnic Russian populations, but they are internationally recognized Georgian territory, and the Russians don't seem to care.
True. In fact, the legitimacy of Abkhazian and South Ossetian claims for independene gained much more weight when Kosovo received its independence from Serbia. A precedent has been set to legitimize the redrawing of the map of modern Europe based on independence aspirations of an ethnic group, which prevailed over their metropolys claims of territorial integrity. I think chickens are coming to roost now, and any U.N. deliberations will take place in that context.
BTW, I visited Abkhazia in either 83 or 84. People even back then took offense with being called "Georgians" (gruziny in Russian or khartveli in Georgian). People fiercely asserted themselves as Abkhazians -- except maybe for the bosses of local Communist Party bureau who'd be installed by Tbilisi.
Russia is far more dependant on Germany than it the other way around Paleo. The issue two years ago over the gas pipeline was between the Ukraine and Russia which got sorted as soon the EU leaned. Interestingly, any interviews with Saakashvili from his office he has an EU flag in the background so its clear where he is pinning his hopes.
Thanks for the synopsis Gorilla...sounds like a real fustercluck. I'm confident the U.S. will find any way possible to get its nose wedged squarely in the middle of it, as with most other fusterclucks.
Russia claims that Georgia just recently took a delivery of a total of about 500 units of sniper rifles from USA and Ukraine.
I'm always skeptical about this kind of thing. Not to be a gun nut or anything, but what, precisely, is a "sniper rifle?" Unless we're talking rifles engineered for that specific use, a "sniper rifle" is just a hunting rifle with a good scope. Now if they bought crates of Barretts and Dragunovs, that's not quite so easy to explain...
Russia claims that Georgia just recently took a delivery of a total of about 500 units of sniper rifles from USA and Ukraine.
I'm always skeptical about this kind of thing. Not to be a gun nut or anything, but what, precisely, is a "sniper rifle?" Unless we're talking rifles engineered for that specific use, a "sniper rifle" is just a hunting rifle with a good scope. Now if they bought crates of Barretts and Dragunovs, that's not quite so easy to explain...
Actually, to be a gun nut...
It is a bit of a simplification to say that a sniper rifle is little more than a hunting rifle. If you look at the work that goes into making a rifle accurate to sub-MOA (necessary to get to "sniper rifle" status), you recognize that it's a very different thing from just pulling a Tikka or Ruger out of the box.
It is worth noting, for instance, that neither the Barrett or the Dragoniov are accurate to within the tolerances generally accepted by members of the elite sniper community and would, therefore, not really be considered "sniper rifles".
If they have evidence that they are sending over heavily smithed Remington 700's with match grade ammo (and this WAS the case with the Saudis sending exactly that to Bosnian Muslims during that war), there is certainly grounds for a serious international incident.
This is the internet! In our natural environment, atheists run in packs and have dictionaries! --- JoeBeDurndurn
Russian troops entering the region with the declared goal of protection of Russian population (estimated 80% of everyone living in the region ) should sound plausible enough to anyone in USA who didn't mind US toppling a regime in Grenada to protect 20 American students who happened to be there.
I think Grenada had more to do with ejecting Cuban "technical advisors" than the pretext of protecting the med school students.
"Sometimes I go around saying, 'Kommisar Paulson has seized the commanding heights of the economy!'" - Paul Krugman, asked if recent changes to banking are socialistic.
If they have evidence that they are sending over heavily smithed Remington 700's with match grade ammo (and this WAS the case with the Saudis sending exactly that to Bosnian Muslims during that war), there is certainly grounds for a serious international incident.
Is sniper rifle trade on government level banned? Never heard of it, if so, what are the reasons?
No, no, you've got it wrong. They're there to PREVENT bloodshed:
Quote:
"Now our peacekeepers are waging a fierce battle with regular forces from the Georgian army in the southern region of Tskhinvali," a Russian military official was quoted as saying by Moscow-based news agency, Interfax.
Is sniper rifle trade on government level banned? Never heard of it, if so, what are the reasons?
It all comes down to end user certificates and government certification, in a legal sense, aside from that stuff which is easily gotten by supported groups, its just political fallout.
Hundreds, possibly thousands, of volunteer fighters from Russia were mobilising to enter the war in Georgia's breakaway republic of South Ossetia last night.
Units of armed Cossacks from across the North Caucasus region which borders Georgia were poised to join the battle for the separatists' capital, Tskhinvali.
In North Ossetia, the region of Russia which shares cultural links and a border with South Ossetia, lists of men willing to fight against Georgian forces were drawn up. Vitaly Khubayev, 35, from the capital, Vladikavkaz, told the Guardian: "There are already two busloads of fighters leaving for Tskhinvali every day. They give you a uniform on the way and you get issued with weapons once you arrive. If I didn't have three children I'd have gone."
The two Ossetias are historically inseparable and residents of the northern republic were furious yesterday at what they described as the "Georgian fascist attack" on their neighbours.
...
At a special meeting of the UN security council yesterday morning, the United States called on the Kremlin to prevent irregulars entering South Ossetia via the 4km Roki tunnel, the republic's only link with Russia. But at a meeting with the US president, George Bush, in Bejing, the Russian prime minister, Vladimir Putin, admitted "many volunteers" were heading to South Ossetia and it would be "very hard to maintain peace".
Under Russia law, Cossacks - the descendants of runaway serfs and outlaws who in the past were employed to protect the country's southern border - are allowed to carry arms and carry out policing functions in cooperation with interior ministry forces.
Also, a fairly balanced and well-articulated article in NYT is trying to give a broader perspective of the conflict.
It was unfortunate timing having Bush and Putin sit next to each other at the Olympics last night. They were smiling and laughing together while watching the show even as they're disagreeing over whether there should be a war in South Ossetia.
BBC is reporting fighting in Abkhazia (unconfirmined) as well and Russian planes are bombing Georgian towns. The major question over this conflict is how far Russia is prepared to go now. I wasn't worried yesterday but I'm getting a little tense now.
Russians bombed military objects in Gori (a city close to SO border that is used as a platform for Georgian operations) and destroyed two appartment block buildings in the process. Now there are civilian casualties on both sides.
Besides that, Russian planes have hit a some objects in Georgian Black Sea port of Poti (the nature of the targets is not confirmed, but Georgians say that civilian buildings and oil shipping terminals were not hit), and destroyed a runway at a military airbase near Tbilisi.
Russain PM Dmitri Medvedev said that they have no intention to fight a war with Georgia beyond routing their military from SO. Although who knows, the gloves are off now.
One thing becomes evident is that Saakashvili is not getting the international support he apparently hoped for. A small noble nation being martyred by brutal hand of big bloodthristy Ivan and all that. Beginning a war during Olympic games has been a dick move that may have costed him all of the favors he curried with US.
That is just scary, Russia is on the move. I wonder if we should help out our allies but then we are moving toward WW3.
Xfire: Pharacon
Tempest says: "A team hat doe snot communicate and talk to each other about what the next move will be is going to lose."
Mex is my hero = "f*ck it, I'll do it. WE'LL DO IT LIVE."
I'm puzzled by the perception of American interest in regards to Georgia. Whatever our geopolitical gain is by our relationship with Georgia, I seriously doubt it justifies intervening on their behalf. The Russians will almost certainly demonstrate significant political will when it comes to affecting the politics and policies of an adjacent neighbor. We would be wise to keep out of that.
This is the internet! In our natural environment, atheists run in packs and have dictionaries! --- JoeBeDurndurn
I find this very worrying.
Fedaykin98 wrote:
wordsmythe wrote:
I'd say a headline like, "Russia Invades Georgia" is a bit more accurate.
A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him, than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word "darkness" on the wall of his cell.
-CS Lewis
I'm confused...I was checking CNN and some stories suggested Georgia started it, and some suggested Russia started it. We've been moving over the past week, so I'm way out of the loop. Where does "the finger" need to point?
ArrMatey - BM Hunter
The Georgian government has been having some issues with a small Russian backed separatist movement in South Ossetia. Russia decided to send troops in to "keep the peace" and obviously that has not gone over well. There was a recent attack on a Russian barracks in Georgia and Russia, who has been amassing troops near the border under the guise of "training exercises" waiting for a reason to go in, is using the attack as a pretext for invasion.
A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him, than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word "darkness" on the wall of his cell.
-CS Lewis
All of which is none of our business.
This is the internet! In our natural environment, atheists run in packs and have dictionaries! --- JoeBeDurndurn
Reportedly, the hostilities have started when a sniper positioned nearby Georgian border control outpost opened fire at South Ossetian checkpoint across the border and nailed a policeman. A sporadic fire that was returned from South Ossetian side was immediately responded to from Georgian side with heavy machinegun fire. Overnight, rocket artillery and heavy mortars joined in.
(Russia claims that Georgia just recently took a delivery of a total of about 500 units of sniper rifles from USA and Ukraine. Georgia hasn't commented on that).
A column of Russian tanks and APCs has rolled from Russia into South Ossetia from the north and Russian jets were seen over the territory. At the same time a Georgian infantry division and a convoy of tanks has approached the south border of the region. An intense shelling of Tshinvali (SO capital) by Georgian troops has continued trhoughout the last few days. SO troops made an incursion into Georgian territory to suppress the Georgian artillery.
Realistically, Georgia cannot hope to retake the region, because Russia will take full part in the conflict and will have no difficulty in repelling Georgia. Local population is vastly pro-Russia, and the majority of it indeed is recognized as Russian citizenry. Saakashvili's intent is probably to drag Russia and SO to a U.N.-monitored negotiation table where USA and UK will play a role and will pressure SO into accepting some form of autonomy but give up hopes for independence.
Xbox Live tag Gorilla800lbs
Georgia, Georgia, the whole day through
Just an old sweet song
Keeps Georgia on my mind
"Men like sex, thus boobies! Oogaba!" - dejanzie
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come on down to Rat Boy's nest!
light up a stogie, and soon you'll see
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I'm with Paleocon here. This is between the EU and Russia. America has next to no business in this conflict unless of course it makes it is business.
Yeah but I was concerned about adding in the Ossetia factor which complicates things greatly. I'll change it to something more neutral but I'd be more in Georgia's camp on this one.
SteamID: Coyler
Xbox Live: Coyler
I suspect that that is more than a small miscalculation and that the Russians are more than aware of it. With American troops locked up in the fiasco in the desert, UN distrust of American influence, and the EU dependent on Russian oil, I suspect all parties will reach the inevitable conclusion that attempting to wrest Georgia out of the Russian sphere of influence is/was an example of geopolitical strategic overreach.
This is the internet! In our natural environment, atheists run in packs and have dictionaries! --- JoeBeDurndurn
And if he gets there, Abkhazia will be on the negotiation list too. This is becoming a chronic problem between Georgia and Russia. To be fair, both areas have large ethnic Russian populations, but they are internationally recognized Georgian territory, and the Russians don't seem to care.
dejanzie- "Let's say Stephen Hawking is after your new pc, and your porn is backed up- would you find it wrong to shoot him?"
LiquidMantis- "Hell no. I'd push over his wheelchair then teabag him while shouting, 'Here's your universe in a nutshell!'"
@ Nomad:
What happens at this point can be characterized as is "Georgia is bombarding a city within an unrecognized region". They're shelling civilians. Nobody even tries to dispute that. Watch BCC coverage.
Russian troops entering the region with the declared goal of protection of Russian population (estimated 80% of everyone living in the region ) should sound plausible enough to anyone in USA who didn't mind US toppling a regime in Grenada to protect 20 American students who happened to be there.
Short historical background. Ossetia consists of two parts, North and South. The was division is arbitrarily introduced by Joseph Stalin, when he drew up the borders of the USSR republics -- North went into Russia, South into Georgia (other instances of his macabre, evil genius like that are all over the post-USSR map). Ethnically, Ossetians are closer to Russia. They're more Slav in appearance and unlike other people of Northern Caucasus (say, Chechnya), they profess Russian Orthodox Christianity. Look at this Wikipedia article, it gives a great deal of details about the present conflict.
Xbox Live tag Gorilla800lbs
True. In fact, the legitimacy of Abkhazian and South Ossetian claims for independene gained much more weight when Kosovo received its independence from Serbia. A precedent has been set to legitimize the redrawing of the map of modern Europe based on independence aspirations of an ethnic group, which prevailed over their metropolys claims of territorial integrity. I think chickens are coming to roost now, and any U.N. deliberations will take place in that context.
BTW, I visited Abkhazia in either 83 or 84. People even back then took offense with being called "Georgians" (gruziny in Russian or khartveli in Georgian). People fiercely asserted themselves as Abkhazians -- except maybe for the bosses of local Communist Party bureau who'd be installed by Tbilisi.
Xbox Live tag Gorilla800lbs
Russia is far more dependant on Germany than it the other way around Paleo. The issue two years ago over the gas pipeline was between the Ukraine and Russia which got sorted as soon the EU leaned. Interestingly, any interviews with Saakashvili from his office he has an EU flag in the background so its clear where he is pinning his hopes.
SteamID: Coyler
Xbox Live: Coyler
Thanks for the synopsis Gorilla...sounds like a real fustercluck. I'm confident the U.S. will find any way possible to get its nose wedged squarely in the middle of it, as with most other fusterclucks.
ArrMatey - BM Hunter
Guy in car: "Hey asshole, you're going the wrong way!"
"Men like sex, thus boobies! Oogaba!" - dejanzie
"If ads put your sanity to the test
come on down to Rat Boy's nest!
light up a stogie, and soon you'll see
how rock can be commercial-free!
'I'd hit it!'" - HP Lovesauce
Allies nothing, Georgia is part of America!
NOTE: This is not a doodle bug.
Spore
I'm always skeptical about this kind of thing. Not to be a gun nut or anything, but what, precisely, is a "sniper rifle?" Unless we're talking rifles engineered for that specific use, a "sniper rifle" is just a hunting rifle with a good scope. Now if they bought crates of Barretts and Dragunovs, that's not quite so easy to explain...
NOTE: This is not a doodle bug.
Spore
Actually, to be a gun nut...
It is a bit of a simplification to say that a sniper rifle is little more than a hunting rifle. If you look at the work that goes into making a rifle accurate to sub-MOA (necessary to get to "sniper rifle" status), you recognize that it's a very different thing from just pulling a Tikka or Ruger out of the box.
It is worth noting, for instance, that neither the Barrett or the Dragoniov are accurate to within the tolerances generally accepted by members of the elite sniper community and would, therefore, not really be considered "sniper rifles".
If they have evidence that they are sending over heavily smithed Remington 700's with match grade ammo (and this WAS the case with the Saudis sending exactly that to Bosnian Muslims during that war), there is certainly grounds for a serious international incident.
This is the internet! In our natural environment, atheists run in packs and have dictionaries! --- JoeBeDurndurn
I think Grenada had more to do with ejecting Cuban "technical advisors" than the pretext of protecting the med school students.
"Sometimes I go around saying, 'Kommisar Paulson has seized the commanding heights of the economy!'" - Paul Krugman, asked if recent changes to banking are socialistic.
Is sniper rifle trade on government level banned? Never heard of it, if so, what are the reasons?
I`m Artsy Partsy Gun For Hire
No, no, you've got it wrong. They're there to PREVENT bloodshed:
I'm relieved.
INT is my dump stat.
It all comes down to end user certificates and government certification, in a legal sense, aside from that stuff which is easily gotten by supported groups, its just political fallout.
Anyone else find it ironic that America is getting upset about another country invading someone else?
Maybe it's just me.
Volunteer militias are moving into South Ossetia.
Also, a fairly balanced and well-articulated article in NYT is trying to give a broader perspective of the conflict.
Xbox Live tag Gorilla800lbs
It wouldn't be summer without a seemingly random war cropping up.
"Men like sex, thus boobies! Oogaba!" - dejanzie
"If ads put your sanity to the test
come on down to Rat Boy's nest!
light up a stogie, and soon you'll see
how rock can be commercial-free!
'I'd hit it!'" - HP Lovesauce
It was unfortunate timing having Bush and Putin sit next to each other at the Olympics last night. They were smiling and laughing together while watching the show even as they're disagreeing over whether there should be a war in South Ossetia.
BBC is reporting fighting in Abkhazia (unconfirmined) as well and Russian planes are bombing Georgian towns. The major question over this conflict is how far Russia is prepared to go now. I wasn't worried yesterday but I'm getting a little tense now.
SteamID: Coyler
Xbox Live: Coyler
Russians bombed military objects in Gori (a city close to SO border that is used as a platform for Georgian operations) and destroyed two appartment block buildings in the process. Now there are civilian casualties on both sides.
Besides that, Russian planes have hit a some objects in Georgian Black Sea port of Poti (the nature of the targets is not confirmed, but Georgians say that civilian buildings and oil shipping terminals were not hit), and destroyed a runway at a military airbase near Tbilisi.
Russain PM Dmitri Medvedev said that they have no intention to fight a war with Georgia beyond routing their military from SO. Although who knows, the gloves are off now.
One thing becomes evident is that Saakashvili is not getting the international support he apparently hoped for. A small noble nation being martyred by brutal hand of big bloodthristy Ivan and all that. Beginning a war during Olympic games has been a dick move that may have costed him all of the favors he curried with US.
Xbox Live tag Gorilla800lbs