Changing the definition of abortion

Do I Make You Thorny Baby?
Donator
Alien Love Gardener's picture
Location: Effin' Finland

Apparently the Bush administration wants to change it to

Quote:

Any prescription of drugs and any procedure that terminates human life between conception and natural birth, whether before or after implantation. Including birth control pills, IUDs and day after pills.

Eeeeevery sperm is sacred, eeeevery sperm is grace, if a sperm is wasted, God gets quite irate...

Edit: Obligatory Monty Python references aside, the interesting thing is clearly how textbook Bush this maneuver is. Subvert the bureaucracy to bypass any checks and further a narrow political agenda. Is there no end to the man's sneaky backdoor shenanigans?

"The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all."

Consultant
Donator V2.0
Anodyne's picture
Location: California

Hmm. I think some of my more conservative family and friends will be surprised to learn that they're abortionists.

Durn, Baby! Durn!
JoeBedurndurn's picture
Location: Bedurnville, OH

Quote:
Is there no end to the man's sneaky backdoor shenanigans?

I think you're thinking of Larry Craig or Mark Foley.


This tag has been moved to P&C
Donator
Paleocon's picture
Location: Cabin John, MD

JoeBedurndurn wrote:
Quote:
Is there no end to the man's sneaky backdoor shenanigans?

I think you're thinking of Larry Craig or Mark Foley.

I swear to god, I'll pistol whip the next man who says shenanigans!

This is the internet! In our natural environment, atheists run in packs and have dictionaries! --- JoeBeDurndurn

Optimus Primate
Gorilla.800.lbs's picture
Location: New York, NY

Paleocon wrote:
JoeBedurndurn wrote:
Quote:
Is there no end to the man's sneaky backdoor shenanigans?

I think you're thinking of Larry Craig or Mark Foley.

I swear to god, I'll pistol whip the next man who says shenanigans!

Are you threatening me?!

Xbox Live tag Gorilla800lbs

Consultant
clover's picture
Location: Hollywood, FL

So... what's the name of that restaurant you like, with all the goofy sh*t on the walls, and the mozzarella sticks?

dejanzie- "Let's say Stephen Hawking is after your new pc, and your porn is backed up- would you find it wrong to shoot him?"
LiquidMantis- "Hell no. I'd push over his wheelchair then teabag him while shouting, 'Here's your universe in a nutshell!'"

Indecisive
Donator V4.0
Funkenpants's picture

Alien Love Gardener wrote:
Apparently the Bush administration wants to change it to. . .

Can Jan. 20, 2009 come any slower?

Consultant
clover's picture
Location: Hollywood, FL

This stuff is so *basic* in other industrialized countries. Why are we still having trouble with it? Why must I be ever vigilant against my own government cajoling me into barefoot-and-pregnant status?

Edit:
Besides, that's medically inaccurate anyway. When taken correctly the pill prevents ovulation, which comes before both conception and implantation. Some people could stand to take a remedial biology class.

dejanzie- "Let's say Stephen Hawking is after your new pc, and your porn is backed up- would you find it wrong to shoot him?"
LiquidMantis- "Hell no. I'd push over his wheelchair then teabag him while shouting, 'Here's your universe in a nutshell!'"

Agent of KAOS
Donator
kaostheory's picture
Location: Helping Jeff Goldblum Pick Up Chicks Since 1993

clover wrote:
So... what's the name of that restaurant you like, with all the goofy sh*t on the walls, and the mozzarella sticks?

Oh, you mean Shenanigans

Fletcher wrote:

Wear the Filthy Skimmer badge with honor. For we have all, at one time or another, been filthy skimmers. And it is our brotherly duty to remind each other, that although the path of the skimmer is quick, it is also treacherous.

Wiener Bombardier
Donator V4.0
Podunk's picture
Location: The People's Republic of Goodge

clover wrote:
Besides, that's medically inaccurate anyway. When taken correctly the pill prevents ovulation, which comes before both conception and implantation. Some people could stand to take a remedial biology class.

Yeah, but under the right circumstances the pill can also prevent a 1-week-old embryo from implanting (if I'm getting the terminology correct). If you believe that life begins at conception it's not too much of a stretch to call that abortion.

Xbox Live: CrankyBaby

baggachipz: Who cares about Japan, let them have their silly pointless dog games and countless re-hashes of anime-based dragon princess super lucky crapitty crap.

Consultant
clover's picture
Location: Hollywood, FL

Right, but in those instances you're treating the standard estrogen/progesterone pills as a morning-after pill, which is an off-label usage. When used *as prescribed* the (estro/combo)pill prevents ovulation.

dejanzie- "Let's say Stephen Hawking is after your new pc, and your porn is backed up- would you find it wrong to shoot him?"
LiquidMantis- "Hell no. I'd push over his wheelchair then teabag him while shouting, 'Here's your universe in a nutshell!'"

Shortbus Commando
Donator
Pharacon's picture
Location: Deep in the heart of Texas... Houston that is...

Ok I like what he is trying to do in spirit but the Pill, IUD's (Had no idea what the hell they where but after reading about it.. eww) and the Morning after I have no issues with. But once the egg and sperm get together and implant you shouldn't kill it. There are better things to do with the baby than kill the poor thing.


Xfire: Pharacon
Tempest says: "A team hat doe snot communicate and talk to each other about what the next move will be is going to lose."
Mex is my hero = "f*ck it, I'll do it. WE'LL DO IT LIVE."

This tag has been moved to P&C
Donator
Paleocon's picture
Location: Cabin John, MD

Pharacon wrote:
There are better things to do with the baby

yummmm

This is the internet! In our natural environment, atheists run in packs and have dictionaries! --- JoeBeDurndurn

Indecisive
Donator V4.0
Funkenpants's picture

Paleocon wrote:
Pharacon wrote:
There are better things to do with the baby

yummmm

Or this:

Shortbus Commando
Donator
Pharacon's picture
Location: Deep in the heart of Texas... Houston that is...

Paleocon wrote:
Pharacon wrote:
There are better things to do with the baby

yummmm

Swift is a famous satirist..... but it's a pretty fun read. I was referring to putting the baby up for adoption, as there are lots of people out there unable to get a baby of their own.

What I find funny is the same people that fight so hard for abortion rights might come under fire from euthanasia laws, without the children that they aborted there will be no one to fight for their lives. The old will become a burden to the young and will be starved to death like Terri Schiavo. A scary thought that you don't think can happen but then in the 50's they didn't think their would be massive killing of unborn children in the US.


Xfire: Pharacon
Tempest says: "A team hat doe snot communicate and talk to each other about what the next move will be is going to lose."
Mex is my hero = "f*ck it, I'll do it. WE'LL DO IT LIVE."

Claw Shrimp
Donator V4.0
LobsterMobster's picture
Location: On a picnic, going "La la la!"

clover wrote:

Besides, that's medically inaccurate anyway.

Since when is law dictated by scientific fact?

NOTE: This is not a doodle bug.

Spore

Executive
Location: Richmond, VA

Quote:
The old will become a burden to the young and will be starved to death like Terri Schiavo.

This statement is so far from reality it should be in orbit. Around Uranus.

Somewhere on a deep ocean vent no man has ever seen, God smites a small colony of tube worms because you masturbate.-JoeBedurndurn, on sin

Finger of God
Donator V4.0
Staats's picture
Location: Minnesota

Dezlen wrote:
Quote:
The old will become a burden to the young and will be starved to death like Terri Schiavo.

This statement is so far from reality it should be in orbit. Around Uranus.

Yea, they're already a pain in the ass.

Xbox Live: StaatsM

Discretion is not the better part of
Donator V4.0
Malor's picture
Location: Perpetually suspended

Heh, I saw a comment on MeFi that with the conservative push to allow the death penalty for kids that are younger and younger (one guy in California apparently is pushing the idea of death sentences for 11 year olds) -- they're going to legalize abortion from the other direction.

Ask a pro-abortion person whether abortions should be allowed if the woman is raped, or in the case of incest, and most will say yes. If you ask why, they say that it's because it's not the woman's fault, and she shouldn't be punished for it.

That's the real thinking behind the anti-abortion laws. You'll hear the 'she should face the natural consequences of her actions' line, in many different forms and flavors. These attempts at laws aren't to protect children, they're to punish sluts.

That's also why you get the rabid anti-abortion activists who quietly go in and get their own abortions, and then ask the doctors nervously not to tell anyone, so that they can get back out on the picket lines. THEY aren't sluts, you see, and shouldn't be punished. They're godly people who just made a little mistake.

Wiener Bombardier
Donator V4.0
Podunk's picture
Location: The People's Republic of Goodge

clover wrote:
Right, but in those instances you're treating the standard estrogen/progesterone pills as a morning-after pill, which is an off-label usage. When used *as prescribed* the (estro/combo)pill prevents ovulation.

Not necessarily.

Quote:
The original contraceptive pills, 30 years ago, contained a high dose of the hormone estrogen. Because of this, almost 100% of their effect was to suppress ovulation. But there were side effects from this high estrogen content, and that was primarily the substantial risk of blood clots. If these broke loose and went to the heart, lung or brain, they were very dangerous, and sometimes fatal, even for young women.

During the years since that time, the drug companies have progressively reduced the amount of estrogen in the pill so that now, depending on the pill, it is only 1/20th, or even 1/30th as much as it was when the pill was first introduced. With this reduction in estrogen, there has been a drop in the complication of blood clots, but, with the reduced estrogen, there has been an increase in what we call “breakthrough ovulation.” The estrogen level is so low that it doesn’t suppress ovulation all of the time anymore, and sometimes there is what we call a breakthrough ovulation—ovulation which breaks through the effect of the drug and is simply a plain old ovulation. It just happens. Fertilization, then, can occur. But if fertilization occurs, implantation within the nutrient lining of the womb is prevented by another action of the same pill. That action is a hardening of the lining of the womb. What occurs, then, is an induced micro-abortion at one week of life.

Xbox Live: CrankyBaby

baggachipz: Who cares about Japan, let them have their silly pointless dog games and countless re-hashes of anime-based dragon princess super lucky crapitty crap.

Discretion is not the better part of
Donator V4.0
Malor's picture
Location: Perpetually suspended

Note that most zygotes fail to implant. Nature herself causes abortions by the hundreds of millions.

This tag has been moved to P&C
Donator
Paleocon's picture
Location: Cabin John, MD

I have also wondered why the sort of homocidal vitriol anti-abortionists reserve for gynocologists don't also extend to fertility clinics -- where literally dozens of viable blastocysts are disposed of every time a routine procedure is attempted. If the propaganda of anti-abortionists is to be believed, the most charitable thing you could say about in-vitro clinics is that they are wholesale abortionists. And though I wouldn't put it past the twisted logic of some, I have yet to see them truck bombing one.

This is the internet! In our natural environment, atheists run in packs and have dictionaries! --- JoeBeDurndurn

Wiener Bombardier
Donator V4.0
Podunk's picture
Location: The People's Republic of Goodge

Malor wrote:
Note that most zygotes fail to implant. Nature herself causes abortions by the hundreds of millions.

Oh please, those aren't abortions any more than a miscarriage or still birth is an abortion. In this case, we're discussing an embryo that otherwise would have successfully implanted, but is prevented because of the effects of the pill on the lining of the womb.

Xbox Live: CrankyBaby

baggachipz: Who cares about Japan, let them have their silly pointless dog games and countless re-hashes of anime-based dragon princess super lucky crapitty crap.

Claw Shrimp
Donator V4.0
LobsterMobster's picture
Location: On a picnic, going "La la la!"

Malor wrote:
That's the real thinking behind the anti-abortion laws. You'll hear the 'she should face the natural consequences of her actions' line, in many different forms and flavors. These attempts at laws aren't to protect children, they're to punish sluts.

And that's the logic you get from politicians (or just individuals) that are strongly anti-abortion yet get one themselves, or for their wife, or for their daughter. They believe that THEIR situation was an honest mistake. THEY are responsible people who had one little accident and why should their life be over because of it? THEY aren't the slack-jawed sluts who can't be bothered to use birth control and use abortions as a reset button. THEIR situation is different and extra-ordinary.

I don't know how I feel about abortion, personally. I like the idea of giving people choice but I don't like the idea of killing babies and I have absolutely no idea at what point a fetus turns from a health concern a woman has about her own body to a separate organism with rights. I'm a male and thankfully I'll never need to decide whether or not to get an abortion (though I may be involved in such a decision at some point, I'll admit). So since I'm a male, since this argument does not effect me directly, and since I don't really know where I stand on it, I'm not prepared to make that call for someone else. I don't think the government should make it for them either.

NOTE: This is not a doodle bug.

Spore

Wiener Bombardier
Donator V4.0
Podunk's picture
Location: The People's Republic of Goodge

Paleocon wrote:
I have also wondered why the sort of homocidal vitriol anti-abortionists reserve for gynocologists don't also extend to fertility clinics -- where literally dozens of viable blastocysts are disposed of every time a routine procedure is attempted. If the propaganda of anti-abortionists is to be believed, the most charitable thing you could say about in-vitro clinics is that they are wholesale abortionists. And though I wouldn't put it past the twisted logic of some, I have yet to see them truck bombing one.

To my knowledge the Catholic Church is the only religion that has spoken out in vitro. It's an inconsistency in the pro-life movement that I find troubling as well.

Xbox Live: CrankyBaby

baggachipz: Who cares about Japan, let them have their silly pointless dog games and countless re-hashes of anime-based dragon princess super lucky crapitty crap.

We won't need roads.
Donator
Aetius's picture

LobsterMobster wrote:
I have absolutely no idea at what point a fetus turns from a health concern a woman has about her own body to a separate organism with rights.

No one does. That's why the debate continues, because it's focused on the wrong thing. The real issue is the definition of life, of what constitutes a living person (presumably with rights). Solve that, and you solve abortion. Otherwise, we end up with silly juxtapositions like people charged with two counts of murder when they kill a pregnant woman, but yet the woman could go get an abortion and not be charged at all.

Remember: this conversation is just between you and me ... and the NSA.
MaverickDago wrote:

Only commies pee "urine" or the devils cocktail as we call it, real Americans exude cold crisp light beer.

This tag has been moved to P&C
Donator
Paleocon's picture
Location: Cabin John, MD

Podunk wrote:
Paleocon wrote:
I have also wondered why the sort of homocidal vitriol anti-abortionists reserve for gynocologists don't also extend to fertility clinics -- where literally dozens of viable blastocysts are disposed of every time a routine procedure is attempted. If the propaganda of anti-abortionists is to be believed, the most charitable thing you could say about in-vitro clinics is that they are wholesale abortionists. And though I wouldn't put it past the twisted logic of some, I have yet to see them truck bombing one.

To my knowledge the Catholic Church is the only religion that has spoken out in vitro. It's an inconsistency in the pro-life movement that I find troubling as well.

Yup. This and other aspects of the Catholic Church's moral consistency inclines me to give them the benefit of the doubt. Other members of the Religious Right coalition, otoh, seem mostly just mean spirited hatemongers who aren't the least bit sincere about saving lives.

This is the internet! In our natural environment, atheists run in packs and have dictionaries! --- JoeBeDurndurn

Durn, Baby! Durn!
JoeBedurndurn's picture
Location: Bedurnville, OH

Malor wrote:
Note that most zygotes fail to implant. Nature herself causes abortions by the hundreds of millions.

You're right, it's clearly that those unsuccessful zygotes didn't make the effort to get implanted, so it's suicide on their part. Murder on mom's part for not loving Jesus enough? Dad's fault for not making mom scream, "Oh God!" enough times?


Wiener Bombardier
Donator V4.0
Podunk's picture
Location: The People's Republic of Goodge

Just as an aside, it's a testimony to the awesomeness of the GWJ community that we can discuss a topic like this with such civility.

Xbox Live: CrankyBaby

baggachipz: Who cares about Japan, let them have their silly pointless dog games and countless re-hashes of anime-based dragon princess super lucky crapitty crap.

Indecisive
Donator V4.0
Funkenpants's picture

Podunk wrote:
In this case, we're discussing an embryo that otherwise would have successfully implanted, but is prevented because of the effects of the pill on the lining of the womb.

Objection! There are some aborted embryos that may not have not implanted due to natural causes, so we can't say that the woman necessarily terminated an otherwise viable pregnancy. What we're talking about is someone eliminating all chance of an embryo implanting, not necessarily terminating a fetus.

This tag has been moved to P&C
Donator
Paleocon's picture
Location: Cabin John, MD

Podunk wrote:
Just as an aside, it's a testimony to the awesomeness of the GWJ community that we can discuss a topic like this with such civility.

Oh, shut up -- Certis

This is the internet! In our natural environment, atheists run in packs and have dictionaries! --- JoeBeDurndurn