Sorry, a bit of a rant coming (plus maybe off topic) but Yea, Im pretty upset with what the US has seem to become recently. Sure I'm Canadian and typing this might prevent me from entering your country or get me tortured or something, but I don't really care right now.

I guess my question would be: Are you still ""proud"" to be American after your govn't has continued to disregard human rights, Geneva etc, have seemed to ruin any credibility of your country loving and protecting "freedom", destroyed your economy and (from the outside) have made a mockery of the democratic system and the "western" way of life?

Now I'm not taking Canada off the hook here as there is plenty of sh#t here that i'm not proud of either, including things we have done to our enemies. But, the shining beacon of the west that seemed to be America in the past, has been dragged down so low recently, that I really worry for the sake of things (both there and here).

Edit: Pur, you pre-emptively answered my question.

Sorry about that Fars , all I see is the kitty.

Honest question:

What the f*ck am I supposed to do about it?

I didn't know you were a Tory.

You got me there, I have no idea.

A good start would be not voting for the Democrats OR the Republicans in November.

You disappoint me Reap. You're a former military guy. Get some of your buds and organize a coupe de tat!!

Here, I'll even give you a pretext to the takeover that most of the country will support:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

And yes they probably would have been tortured before being executed, although it probably would have been a relatively short time, as I think the execution would have been a few days after their capture.

Reap, Getting rid of Lawyers Roman style. I like the way you think!!

The deeper problem, Paleo, is that the government now has the ability to point its finger at anyone, including an American citizen ON AMERICAN SOIL, claim that person is an enemy combatant, and lock them up.

Even a citizen, merely by being designated a combatant, loses all habeas corpus rights; they can't see the evidence against them or fight the detention in any way. The court has said they can be detained for the duration of hostilities; per the President, that will be longer than any of us are alive.

So, merely by having a finger pointed at you, you can now get life in prison, with no ability to appeal or even defend yourself. Even if the charges are completely bogus and trumped up -- say you've got a really hot Ferrari that some government agent wants for himself -- you have no ability to fight it in any way. You're a lifer.

This isn't about terrorism.

I'd rather, Maverick, have a hard life where I can be assured of proper due process and protection against malignant authority.

That is exactly my take on things. Though this thread is pretty seriously derailed, I think this point is particularly worth addressing.

Have we actually arrived at a point in American political development where democracy really doesn't matter? Are we at a point where comfort and the ability to provide for one's self and one's family at the micro level is more important than ensuring the political principles that matter to us on the macro level? In short, as long as its only brown skinned people with funny names that are getting up the ass now, do we really care? (Rev. Niemoller's paranoia not withstanding)

If we have, we aren't particularly exceptional. Most subjects of other regimes don't generally care what happens in official Beijing/Baghdad/Riyadh as long as they get their pot to piss in and their patch of dirt to scrape. As the old Chinese saying goes "Heaven is high and the emperor is far away".

I keep coming back to this, but it is worth repeating.

Voting is really only the end point of the political process. If you feel that you are not getting what you want from your party, it is important to get more involved, not less so.

Recruit and raise money for local candidates with whom you agree and trust. Candidate recruitment is extremely important. Half the reason why the religious wrong is so politically powerful is because they understand that it is a long fight that requires grassroots recruitment, activism, and fundraising.

Do not look to third parties to save you. They might be appealing, but most do not have either the political aparatus necessary to make an impact in elections or the breadth of experience in full tickets necessary to govern if they do. You are far better off working through coalitions to influence the parties with existing aparati. Choose one that is closer and build or reinforce a power block within it.

Early money is king. Primary candidates are always hurting for early cash where the biggest differences are made. The truly politically powerful understand that $10k distributed strategically to a handful of "exploratory committees" is FAR more influential than a political protest or Million Man March. Raise the money as a political action committee and $10k is very easy to come by.

Register voters in small districts. The electoral system in the US disproportionately favors podunk, one-mule burroughs where octogenarians pretty well own the political system. Seeing as fewer than 30% of folks show up to national elections and fewer than 15% show up to local ones that don't coincide with nationals, a dedicated 5% voting block pretty well has a stranglehold on the system. Be that 5% voting block and folks will have to listen to you. That's how Creationists get elected to school boards in Pennsylvania. Use that power for good.

All elections count -- as do all appointments. Do you research on who is running and who they are likely to appoint. This matters as much or more in local elections than it does in the big ones. Today's Jr. Dickhead may be tomorrow's Attorney General. Squash the political careers of the dogcatchers before they get truly dangerous. Nits breed lice.

It's a long fight and the effort is hard. But that is the cost of citizenship.

Based on which historical occurances and policies? Several were captured and imprisoned for years, but not tortured. I'm aware of one guy who was beaten when captured, but I don't know the exact circumstances. I've seen claims that as many as five of the Founding Fathers were tortured, but no names given in those claims. Certainly, though, you need to distinguish between the normal brutality practiced upon captured enemies, and tortures inflicted because of the prisoners' prominence in the Revolution.

I think you do the British a serious dis-service here, and also downplay the seriousness of Bush's torture policies, which go well beyond our normal policies towards prisoners, and also well beyond our responsibilities as signatories of the Geneva Convention. Most interactions between the American and British forces seem to have followed the usual practices of the period, and routine torture of enemy leaders was emphatically not one of them.

Yeah... not participating in government is a great way to change it. >_>