Brothers in Arms: Hell's Highway Catch-All

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UCRC's picture
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I guess it's the time to get this started. I think that there are plenty of goodjers out there who loved previous games for intense atmosphere, realistic combat, historical accuracy and great storytelling. Sequel looks to have everything we came to expect. For those of you, who somehow missed essential info or don't have any experience with previous games:

Brothers in Arms: Hell's Highway (link leads to official site, which has new music theme and interesting resources)
Release date: August 26th, 2008 (well, not really)
Platforms: PC (DX10), X360, PS3
Setting: Operation Market Garden, 1944; story follows 502nd PIR of 101st Airborne, with Matt Baker (Road to Hill 30) being player character once more. (Hell's Highway is the only road leading to Eindhoven.) Most of characters from previous games will make come-back, along with Baker being haunted with memories of those, who are already on the other side. Also, it's pretty sure that historical characters, like Lt. Col. Robert Cole will once more appear in-game. Those who've never played BiA and want to know more about story should check Wikis out: 1 2
Interesting new features:

  • Unreal Engine 3 w/DX10 effects on PC
  • All-new destructive environment system along with cover system
  • Added new teams with MG and Bazooka
  • Reworked AI and squad tactics (i.e. dynamically switching to quiet stance)
  • Story so far feature for new players.
  • Crosshair (first games didn't featured it by default, I think I'll play without it)
  • Nicely revamped tactical map

News:
E3 walkthrough video, just like the one they did for Road to Hill 30 was released. Grab a link, everything looks awesome
Other than that there are plenty of cinematic trailers on YouTube, they've also started a series of dev diaries

I guess that's all you need to know. Discuss ;]

Avant-garde Grognard
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SwampYankee's picture
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There have been some very good trailers on the 360 as well. This looks to be a good, I will wait for reviews to buy, but the previews have been solid, so it is a very likely purchase for me.

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I still love WW2 shooters, mainly because I haven't had the need to buy every single one released.

COD 5 and this are very high on my watch list.

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The game could be Ray and Greg jumping out of the box and kicking you in the junk, and I'd still be on message boards defensively saying people were being too harsh on it.

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Happy Dave's picture
Location: London, UK

I love the BiA series, though not without reservations. The control scheme on the xBox is really intuitive when it comes to commanding small groups, and it can be really satisfying to successfully flank and take out an enemy. It does fall down a little on repetition, and the set-piece battles never feel quite as large-scale as the Call of Duty series, for example. I guess because you're also controlling a load of NPCs attacking groups of enemy NPCs the maths behind it must make it harder to include the kind of (scripted, but still jaw-dropping) explosions and so on of CoD.

What I really want to see is a solid online multiplayer, perhaps 4 player, with player-controlled bot squads. The old game Freedom Fighters had an awesome split-screen multiplayer that involved flinging squads of bots at each other, and something like that here would be really seal the deal.

Bags of smoke, right flanking!
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Avant-garde Grognard
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Not to Hijack, but I'd also like to see a Full Spectrum Warrior for the 360.

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SwampYankee wrote:
Not to Hijack, but I'd also like to see a Full Spectrum Warrior for the 360.

Me too, with co-op where each player controls one squad.

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Donan's picture
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I too am looking forward to BIA:HH. Everything I've seen and heard have been very positive. Should be a demo for the 360 pretty soon, no?

Oh yes, Full Spectrum Warrior for the 360 would be very cool. Had some good co-op times with the original on the X-box. (btw, I do believe that is on the compatability list. I've not tried it to see how it works).

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I want to see collections of each big WWII shooter series in a couple years like there were collections of things like King's Quest. So much (bad) Nazi killing for your buck!

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UCRC wrote:
I think that there are plenty of goodjers out there who loved previous games for intense atmosphere, realistic combat, historical accuracy and great storytelling.

I have to respectfully disagree there. The combat in the previous games suffers from horrible AI and the Suppress-Flank-F*ck mechanic completely ruins whatever fun is left.

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UCRC's picture
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Danjo Olivaw wrote:
UCRC wrote:
I think that there are plenty of goodjers out there who loved previous games for intense atmosphere, realistic combat, historical accuracy and great storytelling.

I have to respectfully disagree there. The combat in the previous games suffers from horrible AI and the Suppress-Flank-F*ck mechanic completely ruins whatever fun is left.


Yeah, I agree. By "realistic" I've meant general feel of it, lack of crosshair by default and recoil that weapons give you. But you're right, squad combat mechanics themselves are pretty flawed.

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UCRC wrote:
Yeah, I agree. By "realistic" I've meant general feel of it, lack of crosshair by default and recoil that weapons give you. But you're right, squad combat mechanics themselves are pretty flawed.

Definitely. Those things I like, but unfortunately enemy behavior is about ten times more important in making the combat work.

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Danjo Olivaw wrote:
UCRC wrote:
Yeah, I agree. By "realistic" I've meant general feel of it, lack of crosshair by default and recoil that weapons give you. But you're right, squad combat mechanics themselves are pretty flawed.

Definitely. Those things I like, but unfortunately enemy behavior is about ten times more important in making the combat work.


Have you watched new walkthrough presentation? Even although game still works with FFF mechanics, it looks way more engaging and dynamic. I've put a link to it in my first post.

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Donan's picture
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I don't see this updated, but release has been pushed back to September. Also, perhaps you all are refering to this vid release, but I just ran across it and it is very cool. I hope a demo shows up in the next week or so (just wishful thinking. I've read nothing regarding it).

Vid:

http://tinyurl.com/6yghku

Avant-garde Grognard
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Well, as long as they get it right....

You don't have to call me Lieutenant, Rosie......

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So the

UCRC wrote:
Danjo Olivaw wrote:
UCRC wrote:
Yeah, I agree. By "realistic" I've meant general feel of it, lack of crosshair by default and recoil that weapons give you. But you're right, squad combat mechanics themselves are pretty flawed.

Definitely. Those things I like, but unfortunately enemy behavior is about ten times more important in making the combat work.


Have you watched new walkthrough presentation? Even although game still works with FFF mechanics, it looks way more engaging and dynamic. I've put a link to it in my first post.

Donan wrote:
http://tinyurl.com/6yghku

Looks exactly the same to me. In other words, broken. They can talk about the realistic tactics all they want, but you can see the developer behind the wheel blatantly avoid making video-gamey/Rambo decisions even though they would have been far more effective.

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Donan wrote:
I don't see this updated, but release has been pushed back to September

So I have heard, although I'm not sure that it's official. I'll update post anyways.
EDIT: Oh noes, it is official.

Avant-garde Grognard
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SwampYankee's picture
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New Video on the making of

So far this looks the best of what I have seen. They certainly are working hard on it.

I'll be waiting for the reviews of the final product for sure, but I am pulling for them.

You don't have to call me Lieutenant, Rosie......

Woof Woof! That's my other dog imitation...

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I'm pretty depressed this got delayed as it was one of my most anticipated summer titles. At least there are plenty of downloadable games to hold me over.

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SwampYankee wrote:
New Video on the making of

So far this looks the best of what I have seen. They certainly are working hard on it.

I'll be waiting for the reviews of the final product for sure, but I am pulling for them.


It's funny how industry works. This video is two-three weeks old but for God knows what reason I've seen it posted yesterday by at least four mainstream websites, including VE3D which posted it when it first came and they obviously don't give a sh*t because they decided to do it again ;]
And by the way: I find approach on storytelling they talk about really amusing, this is pretty unusual for normal devdiary-PR fare.

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Happy Dave's picture
Location: London, UK

New Teamwork trailer.

Nothing really new here, but there is a nice shot about half way through when they seem to spring an ambush on a marching column of Germans, which suggests there will be a lot less 'x-ray specs' AI when it comes to enemy awareness of your position. Which is cool.

Bags of smoke, right flanking!
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Donan's picture
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I really can't wait for this. Love to get a demo soon. I'm reading the novel:
"Brothers in Arms: Hell's Highway: A Brothers in Arms Novel (Brothers in Arms)". It's pretty good and has me excited about this battle again. I dug out my old DVD to start watching the movie, 'Bridge Too Far', again(!).

the soul still burns...
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souldaddy's picture
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Can't wait for this - I hope it clears the "fun hurdle" this time.

Danjo Olivaw wrote:
UCRC wrote:
Danjo Olivaw wrote:
UCRC wrote:
I think that there are plenty of goodjers out there who loved previous games for intense atmosphere, realistic combat, historical accuracy and great storytelling.

I have to respectfully disagree there. The combat in the previous games suffers from horrible AI and the Suppress-Flank-F*ck mechanic completely ruins whatever fun is left.


Yeah, I agree. By "realistic" I've meant general feel of it, lack of crosshair by default and recoil that weapons give you. But you're right, squad combat mechanics themselves are pretty flawed.

Definitely. Those things I like, but unfortunately enemy behavior is about ten times more important in making the combat work.

I think you mistook "fun" and "realism" there, danjo. Brothers in Arms is by far the most realistic shooter I've ever played.

You are correct about the Suppress-flank mechanics, it's not fun. Not yet anyway. The flanking mechanics needs an organized enemy to work - a squad that is formed of at least 2 fire teams and reacts together to what you do. From what I've seen in the videos, BiA 3 still has enemy soldiers react as individuals, boring! I'd love to play multiplayer where each player controls a squad of soldiers - THAT would be awesome.

We shall grapple with the ineffable, and see if we may not eff it after all.

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souldaddy wrote:

Danjo Olivaw wrote:

Definitely. Those things I like, but unfortunately enemy behavior is about ten times more important in making the combat work.

I think you mistook "fun" and "realism" there, danjo.

How so?

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Danjo Olivaw wrote:
How so?

You highlighted "realistic combat" but then said the horrible AI and flanking mechanic wasn't fun. I agree it isn't fun, but I disagree about the realism. The Brothers in Arms series recreates the actual historical battles and has it's AI match the same actions that the enemy performed back in the 1940s. It doesn't get more realistic than that. Boring =/= unrealistic.

We shall grapple with the ineffable, and see if we may not eff it after all.

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Danjo Olivaw's picture
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The idea that your enemies can be suppressed then flanked is realistic. The specific, gamey way that they have implemented this process is neither realistic nor fun. I don't have a time machine, but I don't think they have successfully recreated the actions of the enemy -- not even close. If they had, then the real Nazis could've been thwarted by a bag of kittens.

These enemies have no sense of self-preservation, territory, line of sight, or what is and isn't prudent while in a "suppressed" state. Their only purpose is to be shot at and die. You need an enemy that is capable of recognizing these concepts, and then the suppress'n'flank tactic becomes naturally useful to the player for the same reasons it would naturally be useful to an actual squad in battle. Instead, they provided the enemy with an "oh noes!" meter.

A player can choose to treat these enemies as a threat, and the result is something like an actual battle, but that's playing pretend. That's what's going on in the video above.

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Happy Dave's picture
Location: London, UK

I always played the games prior to this in the series with the Nazi Red Dots switched off, which makes it simultaneously more fun and more realistic. From what I've seen of the new one, the enemy AI looks to be more advanced, and I'd assume there's the option to turn off all the game mechanics stuff like in previous games, and get down to 'BANG' - 'Where the f*ck did that come from?' 'Enemy on the ridge!' type gameplay.

Bags of smoke, right flanking!
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Happy Dave wrote:
I always played the games prior to this in the series with the Nazi Red Dots switched off, which makes it simultaneously more fun and more realistic. From what I've seen of the new one, the enemy AI looks to be more advanced, and I'd assume there's the option to turn off all the game mechanics stuff like in previous games, and get down to 'BANG' - 'Where the f*ck did that come from?' 'Enemy on the ridge!' type gameplay.

Yep. I'm turning crosshair off this time too, it was great.

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Danjo Olivaw wrote:
The idea that your enemies can be suppressed then flanked is realistic. The specific, gamey way that they have implemented this process is neither realistic nor fun. I don't have a time machine, but I don't think they have successfully recreated the actions of the enemy -- not even close. If they had, then the real Nazis could've been thwarted by a bag of kittens.

These enemies have no sense of self-preservation, territory, line of sight, or what is and isn't prudent while in a "suppressed" state. Their only purpose is to be shot at and die. You need an enemy that is capable of recognizing these concepts, and then the suppress'n'flank tactic becomes naturally useful to the player for the same reasons it would naturally be useful to an actual squad in battle. Instead, they provided the enemy with an "oh noes!" meter.

A player can choose to treat these enemies as a threat, and the result is something like an actual battle, but that's playing pretend. That's what's going on in the video above.

This is a strange argument for me to be having with you. I'm not sure what you are using as a basis for your sense of realism other than other video games. Real soldiers don't run around the battlefield bunny-hopping, they certainly don't shoot while they move, and yes, they stay put when they are suppressed. They even stay put when they've been flanked, depending on the circumstances.

I do understand what you are talking about - are you kidding me, how many shooters have we played together? It's that "gee-I'm-about-to-die-maybe-I-should-move" decision that these Nazis don't seem to make. I have played the second game and seen the enemies react realistically, so I suspect that the game's Casual setting (what Pickford played on for the video) dumbs down the enemy. They probably played the game this way for simplicity's sake, don't want to scare away the casual gamer.

But I'm not talking about individual survivability at all. We have yet to see a video game that successfully reproduces squad tactics so you probably have no frame of reference. I've never seen a movie or TV show do this; film combat logic has always been video game logic, focus on the individual soldier and his desire to survive. I take that back, Zulu does a good job of depicting soldiers as a group and not a gaggle, but even this film does depict modern combat. There is a whole world of warfare that movies, books, and (so far) video games have not expressed to civilians.

We shall grapple with the ineffable, and see if we may not eff it after all.

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Happy Dave's picture
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Gearbox appear to be seriously upping the detail in their publicity - here's a long video which directly addresses concerns about repetitiveness with the old flanking mechanic, realism and playability. The line that got me most excited was 'it's possible to play through the entire game, commanding your squad, and never actually fire your own weapon'.

This, for me, is key in the realism argument. I enjoyed the first two BiA games a lot, because they, at least in part, reflected fire-team based tactics well. It was all about covering fire, moving in leapfrogs and so on. I was in the Territorial Army here in the UK for three years, and it definitely struck a chord.

It fell down however on some points - mainly that suppressing fire did nothing but cause the enemy to essentially become inactive, and if you sent a fire team in to take a position, at least one guy usually copped it. You still regularly reverted to standard shooter gameplay, because frankly you were a superman compared to your squadmates, and could assault and destroy two or three positions in a row while they sat at the side and sort-of-helped by plinking away at the enemy to keep their heads down. It looks like they've really fixed that here.

I'm not sure about the 'gore-o-vision' on display here (and thought the visible excitement on the part of the developers about it was kind of odd), as when combined with slo-mo explosions every few moments, it seems to make a deliberate (and largely artificial) spectacle out of death. In reality, a fragmentation grenade going off is a dull thump and a people falling over, not VATS-like body explosions. It'll be interesting to see if either of these features can be turned off (I'd imagine the slo-mo must have an off function, and the gore can be toned down). Personally, I'll be trying to remove anything that breaks immersion, as I have in the previous games, where I usually switch off as much as possible of the HUD, and I think both excessive 'look we have a physics-engine' gore and constant slo-mo zooms and pans will do both, and would improve the game by being minimised or turned off.

Bags of smoke, right flanking!
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Donan's picture
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This is out tomorrow (i.e. hit's retail shelves on the 24th). Any comments etc. for those who got it for the 360 will be appreciated.

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UCRC's picture
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I'll be getting this for 360 soon. Meanwhile, Eurogamer posted 7/10 review which makes me kind of worried.