Does nobody know how to write a resume anymore?!!!
Three in a row. We're on three in a row of resumes for people right around my level of experience whose resumes span 5 pages OR MORE!
I've got nine more to read. You know what I'm going to do with your resume? I'm going to look at all the details you don't want me to. I'm going to look closely at the dates and names of employers, when you graduated, and then I or a developer are going to GRILL THE HELL OUT OF YOU on your technology skills on the phone screen because you are NOT summarizing your experience but rather repeating a bullet list of technologies that you gave me at the beginning.
Tell me what you are working on and what you used to do it. If you couldn't summarize it in a 30 second elevator speech then it's too long. The older the experience the less I need to know. Your earliest job should be your shortest entry and contain only the most pertinent information that you think we need to now from 10 years ago.
You know what this resume says to me? It says you can't keep it simple, that you can't target what you need. You're not gaining my confidence as an employer. I need people who can be flexible and target the right solution for the right problem. I know, I know, I know, I know. The dotcom bust totally ruined the hiring process for your career. HR people became addicted to bullet points and buzzwords and wouldn't even look at a resume if it wasn't full of whizbangs and whoosits. If you didn't repeat that you'd used Technology X at the last five employers and mentioned it again in your laundry list of technologies that no one would look at you. The problem is, we're going the other way. This is TOO MUCH information. Got that? TOO MUCH!
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Chiggie's firebrand style of venting is definitely gaining popularity among other posters.
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Eh, I've been doing it for years. Anyway, I'm dead serious here.
I am all about helping people in tight spots, especially jobs. I like that I'm in a position now to hire people and I'm a pretty easy phone screen.
If I were not so interested in helping people I would just be jettisoning some of these resumes. I promise you I am one of the more tolerant hiring managers you'll ever meet, so if I feel this way I guarantee that someone is putting these resumes in a bin marked "No" at some other company.
Anyway, I wouldn't dare pinch Chiggie's style and while I can be every bit as verbose I seriously doubt I can maintain the same level of coherency throughout.
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I recently went though the chore of resume reading and I’ve got some advice to those updating resumes for whatever reason.
The point of the resume
After I read your resume, you want me to have questions! If I don’t have any questions, then I don’t need to talk to you. If you want the job, then you want to talk to me! Make sure we have something to talk about.
SUGGESTIONS FOR RESUME MAKEOVERS
Resume Length
•> A resume with 2 pages has the best chance to spark my interest.
• A resume with 3 or more pages starts with negative points.
• A resume with 5 or more pages had better belong to someone who saves the world on a regular basis and builds houses for disadvantaged children every weekend and on their yearly vacation or I won’t even talk to you.
Have an expanded resume and a tailored resume
•>> Get rid of stuff that has NOTHING to do with the position you’re applying, especially if your resume is over 2 pages long.
•> Before you send your resume, read the description of the position AND look for information on the overall employer as well. Tailor your resume to the position and the employer. If they are a proponent of Linux and OpenSource, don’t list things that are seen as antiquated to that segment of technology.
• Keep the long detailed resume, but keep it private! This has a lot of things you don’t want to forget, but not every employer needs to know about your entire history
• I need a project manager, so the year you were a car salesman does not interest me. The same goes for the year spent as a music instructor. If you are passionate about music, have a hobbies section to show you are a well rounded person.
The skills list
•> Tailor it to the position!
• Do not list every computer program you had ever touched. Please don’t tell me that you are proficient in Mozilla, Foxfire, Netscape and Internet Explorer. If you can’t use a web browser, you are not the right person for a Program Manager at a technology company.
• Outdated technology – Unless the job requires it, get rid of it. The only thing it will do is mark you as “old” and make me look for dates so I can guess your age.
Dates
•> Think of this like the Fifth Amendment. You have the right to remain silent, but anything you say can be used against you.
• I can’t ask you about your age, marital status, children and many other touchy things. Use this to your advantage!
• If you tell me you graduated from High School in 1970, it shouldn’t be much of a jump to assume that I’ve pegged you as over 50 (56 plus or minus 2 years).
• Any experience longer than 10 years is more than 10 years of varied experience in the field. Twenty years is more than ten years, but doesn’t always sound as good on a resume.
Less is More
•> Try to get your resume down to 2 pages. I’ll forgive 3 pages if you have RELEVANT stuff that is RECENT.
• Jobs from more than 10 years ago should be summarized or not listed.
• Awards from 10 years ago are cool, but not good resume material. (The exception being Pulitzers and Nobel awards.)
• Professional training should be limited to 6 lines or less. You can group things together and let me ask about the specifics later.
• Drop sections that don’t make you look good.
• If you have 10 years of experience and only a High School diploma, drop the education section and put more into the professional training
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But I'm straight out of college and assume that you want to read half a page about 1 of 4 activities/organizations I was involved with while there...Surely it is more fascinating than a 1 page concise document that succinctly expresses the main reasons why I should be hired. My life story is important dammit.
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question when you say keep it under a certain amount of pages do you also mean the cover letter? that one always confuses me. I think my current resume is 2 pages + 1 cover letter specialized for whoever I'm applying to.
Cover letter does not count. A references page does not count.
Anyone know VB.NET that lives in Dallas and is interested in a contract-to-hire position? Send me a PM.
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I have trouble with the 2-page rule myself. Here I am, a soon-to-be 26 year old who has both education and experience adding up to more years then I have lived. The only way I got it to fit within 2 pages without cheating the font size or margins was to take my 5.5 years of Temp positions and condense them into 1 bullet, highlighting the better positions and experiences I received in that time.
A major question I have is about Awards & Honors versus the Education sections.
Here's the snipit from my resume:
Education:
• Currently completing 4th year of post-secondary education at the University of Lethbridge, Calgary Campus – Bachelor of Management (Accounting) program
• Completed the Accelerated Accounting Diploma program at SAIT
• Completed the Accelerated Accounting Certificate program at SAIT
• Completed 2 years of post-secondary education at the University of Calgary (In the faculty of Management – Concentration in Accounting)
• High School Graduate – John G. Diefenbaker High School
• International Baccalaureate Diploma Graduate – John G. Diefenbaker High School
Awards and Honors:
• Accelerated Accounting Diploma
• Accelerated Accounting Certificate
• High School Diploma
• International Baccalaureate Diploma
• Grade 10, 11 and 12 Alexander Rutherford Scholarship Award Winner
• University of Calgary Scholar’s Advantage Award Recipient
• High Ranker in Several National High School Math Competitions (Top 10 – 25%)
• Canadian Volunteer recognition from CCRA for University Tax Program
The margins messed it up a little, but I have the feeling there is more redundancy than I should want. Any suggestions?
Copingsaw wrote:
Super K - The "Anti-Wipe"
I recently ranted about this very thing after interviewing a candidate with 5 years of experience who had the temerity to include a 6 page resume.
I have 16 years of experience that I condensed down to one page. I've gotten interviews and job offers from everyone I've ever sent my resume to -- aside from my silly attempt at going to Epic -- so I assume it's been well-received.
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I have 2 versions of my resume. One that's nice/neat (does goto 2 pages though) then the other with all the bells/whistles (busting at the seams of 3 pages). Some places still want the old way.
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Couple of initial thoughts:
-after saying that you completed the Accelerated Accounting Diploma and Certificate programs (which is nice way to condense two lines that are pretty repetitive), listing "Accelerated Accounting Diploma" and "...Certificate" is redundant. Same for IB graduate/IB diploma.
-I don't think you need to put 'high school grad'. You're in post-secondary education; I think high school is a given. (Similarly, high school diploma is a given.)
I think you want to keep the Awards and Honours to things outside the norm, rather than things directly related to, say, years in school.
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Once you are looking for something that leverages your college/university education, it is time to drop the standard High School references. I left in your last one, because it sounds interesting and could start a conversation.
Here's the rework I would suggest for these sections:
Education:
• Currently in 4th year of Bachelor of Management (Accounting) program from the University of Lethbridge, Calgary Campus
• Accelerated Accounting Diploma & Certificate programs at SAIT
Awards and Honors:
• University of Calgary Scholar’s Advantage Award Recipient
• Canadian Volunteer recognition from CCRA for University Tax Program
• International Baccalaureate Diploma
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Thanks for the tips
That IB Diploma is kind of a unique one compared to the standard HS Diploma. Reason being if I were to apply for any job outside of Canada, as long as the country is part of the recognized 189 countries out there, they're forced to give me a minimum of High School completion based on their standards. From what I've heard about South America, Japan and Europe, that's pretty big to have.
Copingsaw wrote:
Super K - The "Anti-Wipe"
The Fifth Amendment is your right not to testify against yourself. The right to remain silent, etc. isn't a constitutional right, but is a right granted by the Supreme Court in Miranda vs. Arizona commonly referred to as your "Miranda Rights".
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It's not really a two page rule, I'd say it should be as brief as you can make it while still getting your point across. A good resume can say a lot about your ability to prioritize and communicate. No manager wants your life story, it should be enough information to make them want to get you in for an interview.
Just remember that a real human being has to read it, and you may not be the only person submitting for the job. My stack is now up to 13. I have to read all of those and I prioritize based on who looks the most promising. Getting that information across is key. If I bring someone in for an interview and they wow me, I may just go ahead and fill the spot rather than chance them getting hired by someone else.
My rule of thumb, and this is not official nor necessarily recommended by anyone who would be called an expert, is 1 page for every five years of experience rounding up. So if you're 6 years into your field, then you could get away with a 2 page resume with me. Possibly 3, but the more you push that the less I am going to actually pay attention. I honestly don't have the time to carefully review and take notes on a 7 page resume, much less 10 of them. Really to give that kind of attention to detail I'd be looking at least a half hour or more on each.
My own resume is 2 pages long, I'm 9 years in my career field. At a certain point your professional experience is going to matter far more than academic honors. As you grow professionally some items should be getting dropped. As a student fresh out of school, a lot of that stuff matters. As a seasoned industry professional, not so much.
The real question you should ask is, "What do I want them to know about me?" If I gave you a 5+ page resume full of bullet points would you honestly go through it line by line?
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I'd argue that the Fifth Amendment is the basis on which Miranda vs. Arizona was made...
Miranda v. Arizona
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I fit one of those three criteria
I was taught that your resume should be 1 page in length. I could see that growing into 2 and maybe 3 pages as your relevant experience grows. It would be pretty hard to have a 3-5 page resume and have all of it be relevant and succinct.
When I was fresh out of college, I listed my high school job working at the movie theater, there is no way that would go on my resume now. What impact does that have on whether or not I'm good for this software development job? When I had no experience, it said "I have been in the workforce and kept a job for a year in an industry that expects employee turnover every 2-3 months", now it would say "I don't know how to get to the point or how to recognize and emphasize the important over the unimportant." That's not the message I want to give to my perspective employer.
RedJen, I like how you put the point of the resume is to get them to have questions. I hadn't really thought if it like that, but it makes sense.
Fletcher wrote:
@RedJen
Touche Ma'am.
They are certainly related. I'd argue further, but it's just mental masturbation at this point and it not the point of the thread.
"That's because you were 10. Everyone likes Garfield when they're 10. When you're 10 you think a cat eating lasagna is genius." - Mumford
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Resumes should be:
1. One page.
2. Focus on skills that might help you in the job I am hiring you for.
That is all.
I do not care if you were a member of a club, got 4.0 in whatever school you went to, or what your hobbies are.
You know what I do when I interview? Throw the resume out, right in front of them.
Then I just ask "Tell me about yourself."
Anyone who says "As you can see from my resume...." isn't getting a job.
Some nice points and I wish I had read this before applying for a qa tester job recently. No I didn't get it... I bite my thumb at you THQ! My resume is down to 2 pages, but I see that I have some redundant info that I never thought about cutting before. I.e. high school when I also list college.
My question though is how do you all feel about listing military background/ experience when it doesn't really pertain to the job? I always list it to show that I can work as part of a team, or as a leader. I list what I did, rank, and any honors earned.
Epic interviewed me.
As I'm sure you deduced they didn't hire me though, so that should make you feel better. One of these days we should get together at lunch and go egg their offices.
Fedaykin98 wrote:
Personally, I'd consider that relevant mainly in an official capacity. You know about leadership, following orders, decision making (dependent on rank), teamwork, and commitment.
It's much better than the hobbies section in regards to indirectly letting the interviewer figure a few things out about you.
I should mention that I've been on both sides of the hiring table, and usually if I'm interested in hiring someone, I tend to look for what they are NOT telling me. Example - If they have hobbies such as tennis, badminton, golf versus basketball, baseball, football, they tend to work better independently, and may not have as much success in a team.
Copingsaw wrote:
Super K - The "Anti-Wipe"
I disagree about resume length or cover letter 'rules' in general. At a certain level, and in certain sectors (I work in higher ed), the resume/letter should be as long as they need to be to convey the depth & nuance of your experience. Sure, not for entry-level jobs, but if you're in a career and you're at a reasonably high level, your resume or CV should be as long as it needs to be to make your case (no filler allowed).
A bigger concern for me is that a lot of people (IT people especially) don't write proper cover letters. They write 1-2 sentences saying that they are interested int he job (duh) or just a bulleted list of skills. No. Make your case...Chances are I'm going to read your letter more closely than I am your resume.
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Interestingly enough, I rarely get cover letters. Nor do I usually submit one though I usually write one up as a template and keep it handy. Modified as necessary for the position of course.
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If it is within the last 10 years, I would list any miliary service. The further from the position you are applying for, the less details I'd include, but rank, time frame and branch at a minimum. While not directly relivent, it shows you can commit to something, work as a team, work within a system and have some leadership training.
There are three questions I ask each person I interview:
1 - At your last/current position, what have you contributed that would remain after you moved on?
2 - Personal or Profressionally, what mark are you the most proud of leaving?
3 - What is something unique, impressive or distinctive about yourself?
I had someone tank an interview on the last question. He said he was average. If he thinks he's average, then I'll take his word on it.
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It could be very different in the private sector. In my environment, the cover letter is what tells me how well you communicate & express yourself. That is at least as important, if not more important, than how many acronyms you can list in your tech skills.
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I know where they keep their servers. With enough bribe money (read: lunch), we could get a "tour"...
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At the end of every Unreal Tournament match, the game rounds off all of the tenths of points from players' scores. Well, I've written a little virus that takes all those extra tenths and dumps them into my stats account. All we need to do is get into their server room with this thumb drive...
Fedaykin98 wrote:
It's like superman 3...
Oh and I support this thread, I just spent the afternoon cutting down my resume so I can start peppering the Dallas area. Graduating in August with a Computer Science degree.
Now to get that matching cover letter ready.
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*Legion* wrote:
I'm a non-veteran lefty working at a tiny tech startup, and even I find it valuable to see military experience listed. Unless it's a long time ago (>10+ years), I'd absolutely list it.
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