SCOTUS strikes down D.C. Gun ban as unconstitutional

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Dr.Ghastly's picture

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/06/26/scotus.guns/index.html

Wow, wasn't sure they'd actually do that.

I support this ruling.

Unfortunately, if I slash my wrist with my lightsaber it cauterizes instantly. - PurEvil on emo Star Wars plots.

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While they explicitly stated that the right to own weapons is not unlimited, they also explicitly ruled that the ownership of firearms for 'immediate self defense' is a constitutionally protected individual right and not connected to membership in any militia or other organization.

The reasoning that is based on is that handguns are the weapon of choice for home defense. Restricting their ownership and availability via requirements that they be kept unloaded, locked up, or disassembled violates a constitutional right to protect yourself in your home with appropriate force.

While I haven't finished reading the entire opinion, some notable excerpts:

Quote:
Held: 1. The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home.

Quote:
As the quotations earlier in this opinion demonstrate, the inherent right of self-defense has been central to the Second Amendment right. The handgun ban amounts to a prohibition of an entire class of “arms” that is overwhelmingly chosen by American society for that lawful purpose.

The stories don't link to the opinion yet. Here's a Link

I too, support this ruling.

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Yeah, this is a massive ruling. I support some restrictions on firearm ownership (21+ for handguns, no felons, etc.) and this keeps that in tact.

Unfortunately, if I slash my wrist with my lightsaber it cauterizes instantly. - PurEvil on emo Star Wars plots.

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Will this ruling touch off any consequences outside of D.C.?

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Gorilla.800.lbs wrote:
Will this ruling touch off any consequences outside of D.C.?

Absolutely. Various states have tried/enacted handgun bans/restrictions that are affected by this ruling (California for one) and this is going to be a major shake up.

Unfortunately, if I slash my wrist with my lightsaber it cauterizes instantly. - PurEvil on emo Star Wars plots.

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I'm happy about this ruling. If they'd gone for the ban I'd be unable to take my shirt off while in D.C. Because, y'know... GUN SHOW *flex*

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LobsterMobster wrote:
I'm happy about this ruling. If they'd gone for the ban I'd be unable to take my shirt off while in D.C. Because, y'know... GUN SHOW *flex*

I've already got my tickets.

Fedaykin98 wrote:

Good lord, I wouldn't have expected brilliance like that from that nemeslut Quintin Stone!

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Good ruling. I don't personally have a gun for protection in my home, but I can understand the idea of owning a gun for protection.

Plus, if guns were made illegal, the only people that would have them would be the people who are willing to get them illegally.

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Faceless Joe wrote:
Good ruling. I don't personally have a gun for protection in my home, but I can understand the idea of owning a gun for protection.

Plus, if guns were made illegal, the only people that would have them would be the people who are willing to get them illegally.

Also the government.

NOTE: This is not a doodle bug.

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Dr.Ghastly wrote:
Gorilla.800.lbs wrote:
Will this ruling touch off any consequences outside of D.C.?

Absolutely. Various states have tried/enacted handgun bans/restrictions that are affected by this ruling (California for one) and this is going to be a major shake up.

Chicago's watching this closely as well, but it's important to note that the ruling specifically deals with DC's laws, which are federal laws by nature and not state or municipal laws.

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wordsmythe wrote:
Dr.Ghastly wrote:
Gorilla.800.lbs wrote:
Will this ruling touch off any consequences outside of D.C.?

Absolutely. Various states have tried/enacted handgun bans/restrictions that are affected by this ruling (California for one) and this is going to be a major shake up.

Chicago's watching this closely as well, but it's important to note that the ruling specifically deals with DC's laws, which are federal laws by nature and not state or municipal laws.

But I think the whole premise of the case what the right of a municipality (any municipality) to define its own gun control ordnances, no?

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Gorilla.800.lbs wrote:
wordsmythe wrote:
Dr.Ghastly wrote:
Gorilla.800.lbs wrote:
Will this ruling touch off any consequences outside of D.C.?

Absolutely. Various states have tried/enacted handgun bans/restrictions that are affected by this ruling (California for one) and this is going to be a major shake up.

Chicago's watching this closely as well, but it's important to note that the ruling specifically deals with DC's laws, which are federal laws by nature and not state or municipal laws.

But I think the whole premise of the case what the right of a municipality (any municipality) to define its own gun control ordnances, no?

Pretty much. The other regulations are more or less in tact, but out right bans are gone.

Unfortunately, if I slash my wrist with my lightsaber it cauterizes instantly. - PurEvil on emo Star Wars plots.

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I support the intent of the ruling, but I'm dismayed by the reading they use to define the Militia as "all able-bodied men", whether or not they are actually part of an actual militia. To me, this is revisionist, and a reach; but I support the idea of the Living Constitution and so I suppose this is progress.

I would rather have seen the decision urge the re-introduction of mandatory military training or at least weapons training before the right is exercised. I think that would have a better effect on society than just a right with limited responsibilities.

The idea that America will be bettered by making weapons more easily available without balancing that with training and social/civic involvement is crazy. Until we are willing to impose responsibility on gun owners, we will simply see an increase in violence by legal gun owners. That's my prediction.

Extremism in the defense of liberty *is* a vice. It has been since the first Crown Loyalist was tarred, feathered and set afire, and it's no better now. It corrupts first the individual, then ultimately the institution it defends.

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(startles awake) The Constitution was actually UPHELD?!?!

Go App State

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Robear wrote:
I would rather have seen the decision urge the re-introduction of mandatory military training or at least weapons training before the right is exercised. I think that would have a better effect on society than just a right with limited responsibilities.

The door to doing something like this via statute is still wide open and not an unreasonable idea. Perhaps this is something that would make the neighborhood watch more than just a road sign.

The point is that you can regulate and restrict firearm ownership and use within reason, but those restrictions and requirements can't render your legally obtained weapons useless for lawful purposes.

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Absolutely love this ruling...allows for sanity of gun check laws and such that I fully support, but shuts the door on blatant bans, which I have been against for about 25 years as having no valid grounds...

A good sane ruling, and I love it when the court has the guts to actually uphold the constitution and not claim that its out of date just because its an old document.

And Robear - question - not sure what stats you would have to support your comment that we will simply see an increase in violence by legal gun owners (and to me, violence would be defined not as self-defense)?

My amusing note of the day from the cnn article btw...

Quote:
There were 143 gun-related murders in Washington last year, compared with 135 in 1976, when the handgun ban was enacted.
I applaud the success of this measure...eh?

Also, as shown in Richmond, VA - the key to gun issues is just to actually utilize the existing laws on the book for gun crimes. Its that simple to me.

Good ruling imho.

Unless you're running out of mana overhealing is the most worthless stat in the game. Underhealing is effectively known as "wiping".

so sayeth the Bear...

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Pigpen wrote:
Quote:
There were 143 gun-related murders in Washington last year, compared with 135 in 1976, when the handgun ban was enacted.
I applaud the success of this measure...eh?

The question is, what is gun violence like in other similar areas? In the past 22 years, gun violence in DC has gone up 6%, I would be shocked if that's not WELL below the national average and much lower than the national average for metropolitan areas.

I would be interested to see how much of an increase in gun violence there over the next year or two, I wouldn't be surprised if the number of gun-related deaths (murders, accidents, and self-defense triples).

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Very well put.

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That cartoon's got it exactly right; that's an explanatory clause, not a limitation on the right.

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Quote:

And Robear - question - not sure what stats you would have to support your comment that we will simply see an increase in violence by legal gun owners (and to me, violence would be defined not as self-defense)?

Violence absolutely includes self-defense, it's defined by the act, not the motivation, but as I noted, this is my guess for the record. With more weapons in circulation, we will see more accidental discharges, more heat of the moment crimes involving guns, and more shootings in self-defense. It's not hard to understand and it'll be easy to tell if I'm wrong. Care to make your own prediction?

My contention is that without proper training and social/civic responsibilities, gun ownership is a right without restraint. I support gun ownership, I own one myself. But I feel that our constitutional right was tied inextricably to membership, training and service in a local militia, and I think there are very good reasons for that that still apply today. I was saddened to see an argument from the late 19th century (the fictional idea that there exists a militia that all non-militia members belong to) applied to the late 18th century, when people did indeed have a social and civic responsibility to belong to the militia and could be called into it at any time in most areas. I can see why they did it, but it's historically inaccurate. This definitely falls into the category of the Living Constitution, which is bizarre for avowed constructionalists like Scalia. But then, they let ideology run in 2000 as well; that's why they are there, I suppose, although I can't find any enthusiasm for their interpretation of the right.

Extremism in the defense of liberty *is* a vice. It has been since the first Crown Loyalist was tarred, feathered and set afire, and it's no better now. It corrupts first the individual, then ultimately the institution it defends.

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The problem with the 2nd amendment is that people who should have failed 3rd grade English don't understand how to parse it. They then go on to fail to parse US v Miller, much as time.com did today:

Quote:
The Court had not waded into this divisive issue since 1939, when it declared, "We cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear" arms.

Wow, revision much, Time?

Fedaykin98 wrote:

Good lord, I wouldn't have expected brilliance like that from that nemeslut Quintin Stone!

Durn, Baby! Durn!
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Edwin wrote:

So you support the interpretation that:

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, X.

where X is apparently, shall be completely eliminated based on their geographic location?

Because if we can restrict rights based on geography, there's a certain wang-shaped state that's due to lose its representation in presidential elections.

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I didn't say I supported anything. I just posted a cartoon.

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Though I can see how Robear's concern that interpreting the 2nd Amendment as an individual right might be disconcerting to him, I must also state that the militia restriction has its own significant and historical problems as well. Specifically, it is that very interpretation that allowed the country's first gun control laws. That may not seem so bad until you recognize that the intention of those laws were to keep the capability of self defense out of the hands of recently freed slaves. In short, if we are to take the strict interpretation that the right to bear arms came with it the implicit understanding that one was to belong to a militia, one must also recognize the primary purpose of such a militia in the antebellum nation: to put down a slave uprising.

Now that may very well have been the intention of the Founding Fathers, but it was not at all made clear. But just as the original intent of the framers was not to include blacks, women, and the unlanded into the voting public, I think it is fair to now include such into the franchise of self defense as well.

There is only an up or down--up to a man's age-old dream, the ultimate in individual freedom consistent with law and order--or down to the ant heap totalitarianism,... those who would trade our freedom for security have embarked on this downward course.

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Armchair legal theorists are always great.

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MaverickDago wrote:
Armchair legal theorists are always great.

Nice contribution to the discussion.

Unfortunately, if I slash my wrist with my lightsaber it cauterizes instantly. - PurEvil on emo Star Wars plots.

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Quote:
Nice contribution to the discussion.

As opposed to half assed speculation that isn't backed up with any case law or precedents?

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Fooled by similar avatars! Point withdrawn.

Extremism in the defense of liberty *is* a vice. It has been since the first Crown Loyalist was tarred, feathered and set afire, and it's no better now. It corrupts first the individual, then ultimately the institution it defends.

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Robear wrote:
Since you posted that first after my post, and then followed it up, I am wondering whether you are referring to me here. If that's so, then attack the argument. Ad hominem, even cutely third person, isn't what we're used to here.

While we both have Christian Bale avatars, we are very very very different people, Robear. My own post was definitely not directed at you. I respect your own view of the 2nd amendment.

Fedaykin98 wrote:

Good lord, I wouldn't have expected brilliance like that from that nemeslut Quintin Stone!