The offensive Slur thread. When does a word cease meaning the same thing.
Not sure if this will last as it shouldn't really be that offside especially involving adults.
The question I raise is when does a slur stop being a slur and lose its derogatory meaning.
The reason I ask is as you surf forums/blogs sometimes someone says or does something and it really hits the fan as whether that was PC or not.
It has recently happened within this forum with people not knowing the history behind how the Obama Monkey is offensive or how powerful C*nt is to some people. (my favorite blog by a Irish guy uses that one in his posts and podcast and its almost poetic)
The most recent one I ran into on a Soccer blog was a person referring to the German team as Sauerkrauts and they had reached the final of Euro 2008. It was in a congratulatory way not, 'damn those Sauerkrauts I hate them!!!!"
It wasn't long after someone started calling him offside and highly offensive which was really a surprise to me. I knew the saying but the word carried no negative tones to me unless it was formed in an insult.
Personally I'm of Portuguese descent and the Pork and Cheese and Pork chop 'slurs' really don't bother me. It really just has no malice in the backing. Unless there is some hateful adjective in front or behind it and in a confrontational tone I really cant get worked up by being called a sandwich.
Do Germans actually get mad when being referred to as Sauerkrauts or Bratwursts? Do real (my #generation Irish friends growing up didn't) Irish people get mad when associated with Potatoes?


Dago doesn't seem to be a horrific insult the younger Italians.
While they may have lost their steam they still have negative connotations.
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Pork and Cheese may be okay, but what do you think about Cheesehead?
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Alien13z,
You should be banned forever for uttering that phrase, every knows that that phrase is the same as calling someone, ugly, inbred, related to beasts of burden, stupid, ugly (yes I know I said it already, but the're extremely ugly), and functionally no smarter than a rock.
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so a packers fan right?
Context.
A word loses its edge once a new context has been accepted for it.
I submit the F and C words. In American Culture the F word, outside of polite society, has approached a near universal context. It can mean anything and convey almost any emotion depending on context.
In British Culture the C-word has wriggled itself into a new context. Still derogatory, but not nearly as acidic as the context which put it in the list o' seven. You can say it at a party without causing one of those freeze-frame center-of-a-sea-of-hate moments.
For a few years it seemed like the N word was trying to come back... but then the glittery HipHop Gangsta thing started fading out again and music execs stopped trying to make rappers reach out to broader demographics. Despite their best efforts, the N word could not transcend its context for the majority of America.
Course, I could be wrong.
Oh, and as a person that spent 9 years in Germany as an American, and 20 years in America as a German (mom's a kraut, dad's a warmonger)... It depends on who is talking. You know those "you might be a redneck" jokes? They wouldn't be funny if the guy telling them wasn't a redneck. If you're using the terms within a context of disrespect then it's offensive.
Now to go online... context is harder to convey here. So it's easier to offend.
Politely rude. Briskly vague. Firmly uninformative.
Depends entirely on context. If I stated "damn those Yanks I hate them!!!!" after the US wins something I'm pretty sure I'd find out very quickly how offensive I was. Better yet, what if an Iraqi stated it? You have to remember one key thing in this whole discussion that non-English speaking people (or English isn't their primary language) don't frequent English speaking sites. Its very easy for Anglo-American views to get propagated no matter how valid they are.
Again context. While it might not be offensive among friends it will get you in very hot water quickly in Ireland if you were an outsider slagging us about potatoes. As another example I can call my friends a "Taighe" but I'd really recommend you never use that word. Not even in jest.
I'd like to share a little anecdote on this subject. I went to Africa for my Honeymoon as my wife loves the continent and I'd never been. We decided that we would go on safari as we would probably never get the chance to again due to many reasons. Long story short, we ended up spending a week either in a Land Cruiser or eating dinner with two English couples who were around our age. We got quite friendly with both couples and one of them is coming over to Dublin over the summer.
Anyway, over dinner one night they got talking about the Germans. Now, I'm aware that the English, French and Germans don't exactly get on like a house on fire but always assumed it was a fairly benign, if good working, relationship. I got quite a shock. Four well educated English people involved in essentially a ridiculing of an entire people. I decided that the best option for me was to not cause a fuss and get up and go for a walk as I was getting annoyed and it was probably best for me to cool down.
My departure from the table was noted and apparently silenced the party. I assume that initially they thought my wife and I had a falling out and I had stormed off in a huff. Eventually one of the women turned to my wife and asked was everything OK. My wife replied that it wasn't and she went onto explain why. In Ireland, she explained, we have people who hate the English. They are small minded idiots who are laughed at for their narrow view of the world and for using broad generalisations and derogatory terms to describe a diverse people. On top of that, blaming English people now for the sins of the past is backward and corrupt logic. She explained that the way they were talking about the Germans was just the same as certain Irish would talk about the English and while they were having great fun with the former the latter, she guessed, would be no fun for them.
Her point, and my reason for getting annoyed, boils down to this simple fact. Are you prepared for the same to be said about you?
Rezzy beat me to it
Damn you! /shakes fist
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Unfortunately, you never know. Offense lies in the ears of the listener, not on the tongue of the speaker. I've been amazed at the meaningless crap that folks will find horrifically offensive (ever tell a Catholic that the wafer and wine "represent" the body of Christ?)
That's why we should all just walk around in ball gags. Can't say the wrong thing that way.
Bring it on. I know who I am, and what my faults are. I know what my ancestors did right and wrong. I know that I am not them. If all one can muster is anger, then one is likely taking oneself entirely too seriously.
EDIT: Blatant grammatical error.
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One I have been seeing and hearing recently is Oriental. My understanding is that term is for objects, and not people, and is therefore offensive to Asians. But lately I am seeing the term and even hearing it, but not in any derogatory way. Honestly, I really don't know enough to correct someone when I hear it.
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Linguistic theory time!
Slurs evolve like any other word. They lose their power and meaning the same way any other word changes meanings, albeit a little faster since they tend to see a lot more use in many different ways than other words.
Ironically, I feel that this generation's love of profanity is helping to take away power from racial slurs. f*ck, previously one of our strongest words (and a very useful word at that!) has taken the place of "um" and "like" as a placefiller for many people. Just check out XBox Live. For those individuals, the meaning of that word has changed, it has lost its power, and they're left with no adequate words for expressing anger, except for other highly charged words: racial slurs. These words still have the punch and impact they need. They still convey a great deal of anger.... except that they're becoming overused, too. Once they've lost their punch they'll drift into the same lexical limbo as profanity, virtually meaningless rude words that future generations will find quaint and totally harmless.
Not that this is necessarily a good thing, as feelings will be expressed one way or another and if people lose the vocabulary to do so through words, well as they say, actions speak louder.
Jay, I was in an Asian Literature class once when I used the term "Oriental" in reference to people rather than food. I had no idea it was racist, and my teacher (an immigrant from China) corrected me in a non-confrontational way. I was horrified to learn that it was a slur and have never used it that way again. Am I sheltered, or has the word evolved beyond the racist overtones? My teacher decided it was the former rather than the latter, and I believe it is up to Asians whether or not to be offended by it.
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I'm Slovak, entirely. Both sides of the family came to the US from Czechoslovakia when it was still in existence. That area is part of what was once Austria-Hungary (off-topic, I had a high school history teacher who called it "Austria-Hungria" and it drove me nuts), and it wasn't uncommon for people to speak and write both Hungarian and Slovak. The term that gets tossed around with our family is "Hunky," which was a common slur for Hungarians. Only time I've heard it used outside of our family is in Ghostbusters 2 when Venkman is talking to Dana about Janos and says "you're sweet on this Hunky stud, aren't you?" or something to that effect (my great-grandfather's name was Janos, pronounced "yahn-osh"). I've never heard someone toss it out as a slur, with intent to offend. Among family and friend, it's used almost as a greeting, e.g., "What kind Hunky are you? You don't take shot of Pelinkovac?" spoken in a mockery of the broken-English and accent we all heard from the parts of our family that were the original immigrants. It's just not relevant anymore, I suppose, because a lot of the stigmas around eastern Europeans are outdated these days, and they're mostly just seen as Europeans.
Oh, and for those curious, Pelinkovac is a bitter liqueur that tastes like Scope, so unless you like drinking mouthwash, I'd avoid it.
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Yea completely forgot that one to the point I wasn't even sure who it would be directed towards or what it means.
I was pretty surprised about the Kraut one but then again the guy in question was older and was more less looking for an excuse to go on a tirade on the supposed offender. Pretty sure its fairly tame in todays world unless you run into a older person who is looking for a reason to go at you.
Hmm interesting one. The Chinese/Vietnamese/Korean kids I grew up with never had a problem with being referred to as Oriental and actually sometimes preferred it as Asian really does lump you into a very large continent of different people. I remember one instance where a Korean guy I knew couldn't wrap his head around Indian people being referred to as Asian even after repeatedly being told by a Chinese guy that India is in Asia and therefore they are Asian. They settled on using Oriental which would not include India.
Changes are mine. This is the basis of all offensive words. I know people who do not even come close to flinching at the word "f*ck," but my mother is another case. She doesn't like it. I would feel bad using it around her.
All language is arbitrary, and any meaning they accumulate is assigned by us. And can be just as easily forgotten. Ironically, the people who tend to call for putting a stop to the use of offensive slurs, by making them rarer, make them stronger in meaning, and make them last a lot longer than they might have had they simply been used. As they get older, and weaker in meaning, they fall into obsolescence (when's the last time you heard someone say, "Ah, humbug!" aside from A Christmas Carol?).
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Hunky? That's a new one by me. Now "Honky," I've heard...
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"Honky" is entirely different. Hunky was a common slur in the early 20th century for eastern Europeans. It's a derivative of "Hungarian."
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I'm not sure whether this has lost it's meaning, or whether people never really knew it in the first place (I'm referring to the UK, since I don't know how prevalent the term is else where) but "half-caste" really winds me up.
I'm mixed race, with ancestors from at least 3 different countries. None of them were Indian, and, as far as I am aware, the term refers to people who were born to parents from different castes, and were therefore considered to have been of lower social standing in what was a very rigid class-oriented society.
My ancestors were not of different social strata, they were from different countries. The term was essentially derogatory, and I do not consider the fact that it is being misapplied should make it acceptable.
I have heard the term used (or misused, anyway) in court rooms, on Police reports, in medical notes and on TV fairly frequently.
What really boils my beets is "half-cast", which is not only ignorantly inaccurate at best, but is also spelled incorrectly!
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isn't the caste ladder still active in India? Seems like i saw a news blurb where some guy pushed a girl out of his way into some frying grease because she was "below" him or some such silliness.
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Legally, it does not; the Indian government outlawed any discrimination based on caste some time ago. It is still hanging around though, as you would expect any system that survived for such a long time to. I think that other countries, such as Bangladesh, do or did have a similar system.
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The point is you wouldn't like it either. You might not get offended but you wouldn't hold someone in high regard if they used that type of language in any serious way. I'm not talking about nuanced arguement but just lazy stereotyping and sweeping generalisations with little grounding in facts. Personally, I just find that type of talk offensive for the simple reason that its dangerous.
I'm not so sure I agree with you. Taighe and the N word are certainly not suppressed by the people they are aimed at yet they are still pretty loaded words. I suspect the history of the word has far more effect on its offensive nature than its use. I even can't bring myself to type the N word even though all would be aware I mean nothing by it. Some words have centuries of oppression tied to them and they are just not going to get sanitised anytime soon.
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I didn't say the people they were aimed at, Axon, I said the people who try to put a stop to them. There are plenty of white people responsible for the strength of the N word these days.
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I think thats something I can definitely agree on. Words which were only created as a slur and in hate will always carry their weight. Never heard of Taighe though or Half-cast which was obviously only a term to identify someone and attempt to degrade them. Never heard of Hunky either and it even sounds tame that one wouldn't think its potentially offensive.
WTH?
Oriental is considered a racial slur? I thought it was like "European" (or is that a slur too?), it was a denotation of where ones ancestors hailed from (i.e. the Orient, as in Oriental Airlines). I've never found the term "Kraut" to be all that offensive/derogatory, nor the term Polack (I'm esentially half German and half Polish). I just understood that that famous Polish stupity, isn't stupidity at all, just stubborness which most of us are damn proud of, and anyone that mistook it for lack of intelligence was simply to stupid to see it for what it really was.
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Dead honky!
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As an adjective, "oriental" implies a more specific style and culture (one generally associated with east Asia from before it became so thoroughly westernized during the age of imperialism), and is thus used for inanimate objects that are necessarily part of that style and culture. Since the color of one's skin does not determine that person's style or culture, using the term "oriental" is an assertion that the person you're talking about is part of that ancient culture (not simply of that cultural lineage).
I suppose in a way, that makes it similar to "honky," though the honky tonk culture is still quite active in many parts of the US and Canada.
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I understand that. I'm just not so sure that there are some slurs than can ever be saved. Granted words do evolve. At one time "gay" and "baggins" had nothing of the connotations it has now. Some would argue that they are even going full circle now and on their way to being benign again. Others I'm not sure that they can ever escape their history.
jowner, Taighe is a term used to describe the Irish at a time when we were dirt poor, tenant farmers with no education. Basically its a name that is used to dehumanise the Irish.
Nos, Oriental and European are little different. I'm European, like it or not. Its the continent I'm from. I can see why Oriental would annoy some people. For example, I hate it when people refer to Ireland as the Republic of Ireland or Éire. You don't call other republics "The Republic of..." nor do you use their native language's name for that country either. I'm sure it can differ from country to country but I'm willing to guess that people's sensitivity on how they are described depends on their history or identity.
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I think it is pretty fair to say that it is up to the offended to decide whether or not a term is no longer offensive or not. That can be yesterday, a thousand years, never or any points in between. It isn't up to offenders to tell the offended to "get over it" because they aren't feeling or intending the offense.
Try this little test.
Go up to a returning serviceman from Iraq and greet him by saying "Thank you for your service, you fcuking babykiller" and then try to explain to him that "fcuking babykiller" are just words and that he shouldn't take offense to them. Moreover, that he should even reclaim the term and take pride in them. Please feel free to post about your resultant beatdown.
There is only an up or down--up to a man's age-old dream, the ultimate in individual freedom consistent with law and order--or down to the ant heap totalitarianism,... those who would trade our freedom for security have embarked on this downward course.
Hey, it's not guaranteed. The serviceman might take pity on people with terrible speech impediments and/or dyslexia.
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Or they might be sufficiently thick skinned and be "over it".
Most likely, however, he'd give you a righteous beatdown which you'd richly deserve (just as if you had called me a "g00k").
There is only an up or down--up to a man's age-old dream, the ultimate in individual freedom consistent with law and order--or down to the ant heap totalitarianism,... those who would trade our freedom for security have embarked on this downward course.
"Gazerozerok"? Nah, it's way too awkward to say emphatically, and you'd probably have to explain it to the person once you'd said it, so it's probably not too useful as an epithet.
I must thank you for the image of that "My BFF Jill" girl getting her ass stomped now, as that's the first thing I thought of when you mentioned kicking ass for being called a 'g00k'.
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I assume there are filters in place.
I also assume you have a point to make.
I could be wrong on both counts.
There is only an up or down--up to a man's age-old dream, the ultimate in individual freedom consistent with law and order--or down to the ant heap totalitarianism,... those who would trade our freedom for security have embarked on this downward course.