Save my Soul
Some people might have noticed in my previous posts that I was an atheist. I have described my self as a reluctant atheist because I really don't want to be one.
Most religions seem to be much better places to be.
So I wonder if anyone here wants to convince me?
I want to believe but I also want the truth so I might ask you to justify things you say. It does not mean I am angry or don't like the attempt but it might mean you are going to fast.
Assume I know something about most religions, more about Christianity.
I'll be honest and say right away I am uncomfortable with the idea of faith. I can take some things on faith but not a lot. Maybe thats the first step, convincing me that faith is a virtue instead of a vice.
Thanks in advance to anyone who tries, I really appreciate it. Maybe I won't be the only one who is saved because of it.
The problem is that it seems like you want proof, or evidence, or even logical steps to come to the conclusion that God exists. If it is going to take that to convert you, then you'll never be a Christian. To believe in God is to believe that there are some things in this universe that we will never and can never be explained.
Chumpy wrote:
Malor wrote:
Aye. Tkyl has a good point.
I've been having theological discussions with one of my good friends (ultra-christian) for years and that's the one thing I can never get past. There have been times where I've said, "I wish I could make myself believe in God", but that's not something one can control. You don't control faith. Furthermore, no one can give you faith.
Fletcher wrote:
I can sort of identify with you. I'm really uncomfortable with the idea of faith, especially the seemingly blind christian version. But I wouldn't say I'm an atheist either. It's simplest to say that I believe in an order to the universe.
Religion, and its appeal, are about several things: spirituality- feeling like you're participating in something larger than yourself, structure- having an organized code of conduct to fall back on, and community- other people to share something with. Often people feel the pull of one of these things more strongly when they start looking for meaning in organized religion.
If I were to check a box for myself right now it would probably be "Buddhist"; you don't have to definitively answer the faith question to find meaning in the world.
Maybe think a bit about what you want to be "saved" from?
dejanzie- "Let's say Stephen Hawking is after your new pc, and your porn is backed up- would you find it wrong to shoot him?"
LiquidMantis- "Hell no. I'd push over his wheelchair then teabag him while shouting, 'Here's your universe in a nutshell!'"
Anyone who would want to "convince" you that their path is the right one probably isn't someone you'd do well to listen to. Better to read some books and do your own inner work than ask for the Cliff Notes version from someone on a forum. Faith is learned through practice, awareness and a willingness to see the world differently. It's not something you'll be convinced to sign up for on an intellectual level.
Certis beat me to it. - Elysium
Millenia from now, I believe science will encounter paradoxes that will prevent us from discovering deeper. That isn't to say that we won't be able to progress laterally, infinitely. But I do feel there will be a limit we can keep approaching, yet never reach. Its almost like the law of halves or approaching h in Calculus.
The idea of a limiting paradox is when science will encounter something that we need to understand in order to build a tool that will allow us to understand it. Of course we can observe, but there will be discoveries of which observing gets us no closer to understanding.
Once we get to the "God Particle" or discover that it is in fact constructed of something even smaller, eventually we will have to get to something that just is. How are we going to scientifically explain something that just is? At that point no matter what methods and controls we use, science will merge with religion.
It could be something similar to a metaphysical mirror where if we cross it, we imediately move away from it again in the opposite direction.
Being fangoriously devoured by a gelatinous monster.
I would also suggest traveling the world and stepping outside of daily life to experience and observe. I would go to places with large scale natural anomalous geography like the Grand Canyon or Niagara Falls.
One of the first steps of faith is realizing that there are sophisticated systems to which you are statistically insignificant. Your abilities and senses have no chance of affecting these geographies. Your comings and goings are irrelevant to them, yet any attempts to impede them would bring serious physical harm or your demise.
The next step is to realize that despite our ability to devise complex mechanisms to survive nature's fury, everyday we do survive should be seen as a gift. Who blessed you with this gift or how you obtained it is up to you and will be the cornerstone of your faith.
Being fangoriously devoured by a gelatinous monster.
Me personally, I just like to go with "I don't know the answer yet."
"Just because something's popular, that sure doesn't make it right." -Penn Gilette
"You can't fix stupid." -Ron White
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Pick a faith, one that seems to work for you. Find the cannon or saying or prayer that is the mainstay of the faith. Say it and try to believe it until it is litterally the only thing you can think of, and then go from there.
A quick question though about your post as to your reluctancy. Is it that you are looking for community and friends that the religion would provide? Or is it that you feel your life is meaninless and desire some sort of confirmation ? How is your mental state ?(ie depressed,lonely, happy, etc).
This is the only litany that has ever really comforted me consistently through my life. Thank you, Frank Herbert.
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Why do you think Jesus asked the man in this passage to do this?
A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him, than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word "darkness" on the wall of his cell.
-CS Lewis
Could you outline exactly why again? (Or point me to the post, I must've missed it.) Seems to me from your description you're too far gone to buy into any religion intellectually, wouldn't it be better to try and be happy where you are?
"The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all."
I'd like to nominate Certis for God! Seriously, this has to be the most perfect answer to this question.
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A little known fact is jesus ran a pawn shop out of Nazerath.
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(sorry, I was looking for the Tom Cruise Video for the link but I think it's been erased)
-----------EDIT-------------
found and added!
also comes in handy if you need to help people in a traffic accident!
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The problem with atheism is that it doesn't provide comfort, or give people the sense that they have a purpose. It's simply a lack of belief in the supernatural or an afterlife. Coming to grips with the idea that maybe the only point in your life is what you decide, and that once your dead that's it isn't something many people can do. Ever.
That... and the cultural stigma with being an atheist doesn't really help.
The measure of a man is how truly his actions reflect his own truth - not how well his actions fall into line with what makes others comfortable.
If you're evidence-driven, there simply isn't any solid evidence for a supreme being. An omniscient, omnipotent being should be easy to demonstrate, but no matter how hard we look, we don't see any conclusive sign of one... just a lot of wishful thinking.
But you don't need to believe in a god to be spiritual. You might want to look into Buddhism, especially Zen. Meditation works, whether or not you believe in a deity, and there's a lot more to your brain that you typically realize.
You can thrive without needing to believe in an invisible man that will punish you for being bad. You can learn to be ethical because it's the right thing to do, not because you'll be punished if you don't.
You can be very spiritual without needing to fool yourself, even a little bit.
Because the guy was a sucker? What sort of schmuck worries about what happens after you die? The glory of god's creation surrounds us! Eat, drink, and be merry! Live the best life you can! If your doubts about your life run deep enough to cause you grief even while following the guidelines of good... then maybe, just maybe, you're striving for the wrong team. Listen, it's hard to be a saint. REALLY hard. But that's why we have options!
Ask me about Bacchus.
Politely rude. Briskly vague. Firmly uninformative.
1) Atheism can provide comfort. It is all about your mentality and what causes you to be happy or content with your life. As an atheist, I no longer have to worry about going to hell. That's very comforting. If the Christian God is the real, true God, I am going to go to hell for what exactly? I lead a good (more or less) life. I have been incredibly selfless in my relationships with friends. I am a good person and better than many of the hypocritical Christians I've known (not saying a whole lot), but me and all of the other billions of good people who don't believe that Christ died on the cross to save our souls from eternal damnation will burn in hell for not appreciating him enough? For not giving God his due glory? That is not a God deserving of glory or deserving of my faith and I would rather burn in hell (if you give me the choice).
2) Believing in God is not the only way to find happiness in life and your existence. Whatever happens after you die is out of your control, so why worry about it. It will happen regardless of how much you think and worry over it; so, find ways to enjoy your one shot at life.
Fletcher wrote:
Convictions have to come from you. I have no testimony to share. I was born and raised Catholic.
The lack of rational reasoning and evidence has bothered me of late. I am a rational person, trying to believe in something irrational. Part of me thinks that because it's irrational, it shouldn't even stand consideration. The other part wrestles with that, saying "that's the point, stupid!" It's not an easy belief to hold, and trying to find a rational reason to will be a self-defeating exercise.
Faith is the only thing on which you can found belief. The idea of faith isn't so foreign that you should have distaste for it, though. Everyone has faith in things. I have faith (maybe not religious faith) in every part of my car, that, say, an axle won't break on my long commute, or that the chair I'm sitting in now isn't going to collapse on me. The only evidence I have to prove that is previous experience, but metal fatigue can develop slowly, so who knows if I really SHOULD be trusting the axle, or the chair.
Faith is often considered to be a blind belief in something without question, and even trust in it. Do I have enough faith, personally, to think that God is always going to take care of me? I'd have to say no. It's not that I wouldn't trust him to, but I don't believe we should be neutral parties waiting for him to do something either. I consider this life to be my part of the deal, and he takes care of the rest afterward. Or, at the very least, I will learn what my part will be afterward.
Mother Theresa had crises of faith, so I don't consider myself, or anyone for that matter, immune to doubt. Getting over that doubt can seem insurmountable. And you can't rely on rational evidence to help you. It's a personal decision, something that I can't convince you to follow. I could offer hollow assurances that God is there, and he loves you, but those don't tend to help someone not ready to believe it. If you don't want to be an atheist, then it's a decision you have to make. No one here can reason it out for you and eliminate the question, "why can't I do that without believing in a god?" Well, except maybe, if you want to perform miracles. Which is apparently not easy to do.
I'm starting to ramble, so I guess I'd better stop.
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Not true. There are entire sects of Christianity (and other religions) that view God through the lens of science. Some argue that God explains all; some that God's Creation can be understood and that this leads us to the understanding of God.
I'd argue that religious belief is a lot more diverse than the dichotomy of belief versus evidence implies.
Extremism in the defense of liberty *is* a vice. It has been since the first Crown Loyalist was tarred, feathered and set afire, and it's no better now. It corrupts first the individual, then ultimately the institution it defends.
Show me anything that proves God exists, and I'll retract my statement. Until that point, I stand by my statement that believing in God is to believe in something that we do not know* to be true.
* And I mean know in the most scientific / logical sense. Not know in the, only a God could create such a beautiful world therefore I know God exists, sense.
Chumpy wrote:
Malor wrote:
Imagine that you were told that an invisible magical frog hops around doling out eternal bliss to those it deems worthy. You're also told that the frog only appears to those who believe in it. That seems like a nice story. Who wouldn't want eternal bliss?
If we believe this story, it would change our lives. We would all want to behave in a way that propitiates the frog. And look, some of our friends are doing it. They all seem to be happy and they're doing nice things together that help other people.
So the question is, should you believe in an invisible magical frog despite the complete lack of evidence?
How you answer that question should inform how you answer your original question.
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That is what faith is, is it not? You don't have to have evidence to "Know" something. If you actually were able to scientifically prove that god existed, you would quickly become the most important scientist to have ever lived (Scientifically verifiable evidence would convince lots of us science folk
). You would also win lots of money through various prizes (templeton prize ~>1.5 million dollars), probably also a noble (~1 mil). (I have said this before) Good luck if you intend to try.
Thats exactly my point. Believing in God is believing in something you cannot know. Robear said that there were some religions that use science in their religion. I then responded by saying if he could show my some proof that God exists, I'd retract my statement that believing in God is believing in something we do not know.
Chumpy wrote:
Malor wrote:
First of all, thank you all very much for your advice and attempts to help me, one way or the other. I do truly appreciate it.
Now, might be a long post. Sorry!
Well thats kind of my problem. I do want evidence and I think(perhaps falsely) that if God(Not all gods but the big three at least) exists it would be possible to know it. I can't think of any reason a God would purposefully, and everything a god does is purposeful, allow the issue to be doubted.
Trusting in Jesus might have made since when he walked the earth but now its just unfair.
This is my problem. I can't "just believe" with out a reason. Even if I could, would it be a good idea?
I am not really interested in spirituality or anything like that though I don't think its a bad thing. I guess being saved from hell or just not existing anymore. People tell me feeling Gods love is a comforting thing. I am not even sure what I would get out of it. I guess part of me wonders if I AM wrong since atheists are in the vast minority. I am not lonely or sad, I am fortunate to have a good life. I just think its a very important question and should be investigated.
Why not? Why can't I be convinced intellectually? Is that fair or just? Is it a good thing?
What if there is a God and I can't accept it with out evidence, is there something wrong with me?
Are you sure? Really? Do I really get to decide who blessed me? Does that make sense? There are many known gods, anywhere between none of them and all of them may be real. Independently of what I think about the matter. Am I wrong about that? Can my thoughts really change whats real? How do you know?
I want the truth, not to be brainwashed. As I said, I am very happy and have a wonderful family. I do not approach this question out of need. With out a god I think Life IS meaningless, cosmically. I find meaning in my family and friends however.
I have no idea.
I am reluctant because if there is a God and even half of his marketing is true it would be a much better universe to live in provided I convert.
I actually am happy where I am, but it could always be better!
To be honest its not the spirituality I want. Its the everlasting life.
There is a difference between faith and prediction. I think the word faith is commonly used when prediction is really intended. I predict that my car will be fine when I drive it. Based on Honda's reputation, government regulations, direct observation and past experience. I could be wrong and it would not be world shattering if I was. I rely on my car because of how I have predicted it will perform.
I can't predict anything about God, or even if he/she/it exists. And thats my problem.
Thats interesting. Got anything on the evidence side of that spectrum?
I'm also an atheist who would love to believe, but what Tykl asks is not so simple. In order to believe you must let go of that thirst for evidence. Some people, like me, are unable to do that. So, sorry, Kier. Religion is not something you can convince yourself of, it's something that must be sincerely felt in the heart and believed on a level other than rational empiricism.
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Live by the golden rule and study what interests you. Nothing could be simpler ...
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There's no evidence for everlasting life. You're asking for a way to fool yourself into believing something that probably isn't true, so that you don't have to be afraid of dying.
You're explicitly asking for someone to run a con job on you.
And even if there is some existence after death, "everlasting" is the one thing you do not get. Everything ends. Everything. Even Heaven, were it to exist, would eventually run out of energy and stop.
You're going to die, and probably will just be gone. Even if physical death isn't the end, there WILL BE an end. And, given what we currently know, physical death looks a lot more likely than some indefinite-but-necessarily-limited time on some other plane of existence before ending there instead.
That's reality: all things end. You can deal with that, or you can retreat into fantasy. Up to you.
I think this gentleman speaks to this very issue!
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