Telecom immunity

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Aetius's picture

Looks like the telecoms are going to get off the hook for the NSA's warrantless wiretapping.

Remember: this conversation is just between you and me ... and the NSA.
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I think FISA needs to have more oversight, not less. We should always take Nixon as the guiding example of why oversight over the intel part of the Executive Branch is necessary (and Reagan and Bush as well, but Nixon was the biggest abuser of domestic intel.) Ah well, the pendulum will swing back with the next over-reach.

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This makes me sick to my stomach.

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Nobody will fault the Telecoms because someday they might need them to break the law, too. A wink and a slap on the wrist, at most.

NOTE: This is not a doodle bug.

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Quote:

Yesterday we had an explosion of reactions from members of Congress and from our Blue America-endorsed candidates regarding what many people feel is a betrayal by House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer. I know that John would never brag about it but when Hoyer was fighting for the Majority Leader job, John was the loudest voice on the Internet in opposition, predicting… well, just the kind of thing that happened yesterday. Hit that link and read why respected congressional legal minds like Jerrold Nadler, Tom Allen Russ Feingold, and Chris Dodd are saying no to Hoyer’s compromise capitulation. When I was in DC recently I ran into Rep. Peter Welch (D-VT) and I congratulated him on finding a very nasty little loophole the Bush Regime had somehow inserted in some legislation when no one was looking. He beamed and was happy that someone knew about his efforts… and then told me his re-election was in jeopardy and asked for help from our PAC. “Congressman Welch,” I said politely, you can’t be in jeopardy when the Republicans can’t even find a third-tier candidate to run against you.” He laughed. He wasn’t laughing today, though, when he explained why he would vote against the Hoyer-Bush plan to do grave violence to the Constitution:

Quote:

“I simply do not believe any president, especially this president, should have unilateral or unchecked authority to conduct surveillance without judicial oversight. Congress has an obligation to protect our national security without sacrificing basic rights provided in our Constitution. “While this compromise reflects improvements over previous flawed proposals, it is a compromise I will not support. I have consistently opposed any legislation that grants retroactive immunity for telecommunication companies that cooperated with the Bush administration’s warrantless wiretapping. Regrettably, this latest proposal fails to hold the administration and the companies accountable for their actions. The American people deserve to know exactly what happened and they deserve to know who is accountable. This bill fails that test.”

Very polite but very much to the point. Peter Welch stands with the people of Vermont and the people of the United States, not with Bush, Hoyer and their big criminal campaign donors. Another member, who has asked to remain anonymous, for obvious reasons, just said this: “Steny Hoyer is the best friend money can buy.” We’ll see all the competition for the best friends money can buy during the vote today

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This is bad.

I do not approve.

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Aetius's picture

It's done. The Wall Street Journal approves. The Washington Post doesn't even mention telecom immunity. I suggest GnuPG if you don't like your communications overseas being monitored.

Remember: this conversation is just between you and me ... and the NSA.
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Quote:

What is Obama’s position on the newly passed FISA bill in the HOUSE? So far we’re only getting silence. I contacted the campaign and I’m waiting for a quote. I believe that Nancy Pelosi is taking a hit for him. She’s not telling anyone to support it, but explained why she voted for it. If she really believed in it—she would have urged her colleagues to vote for it, she did not. Here’s the roll call.

If Obama is remaining quiet because he doesn’t want to have to run against the Republican/FISA ads that would come out…well….that’s wrong. He can’t allow them to frame the debate and run the agenda in the general election. Americans are solidly against immunity for the Telecoms. It’s his party now and he can easily lead on this issue against McCain by being the first one out of the gate against Telecom immunity, but stand strong for our national security. In the past Obama supported Chris Dodd’s filibuster.

It’s official: Obama will back a filibuster of any Senate FISA legislation containing telecom immunity, his campaign has just told Election Central. The Obama campaign has just sent over the following statement from spokesman Bill Burton:

“To be clear: Barack will support a filibuster of any bill that includes retroactive immunity for telecommunications companies.”

That was huge at the time. McJoan writes:

Quote:

Senator Obama, spoil Bush’s FISA Christmas celebration. Remind your colleagues that he is a lame duck with a sub 30 approval rating. Remind your colleagues that they are far more popular with Republicans than with their own party.

Remind your colleagues that, in your own words, “The stakes are too high and the challenges too great to play the same old Washington games with the same old Washington players.” Reject this bill and lead your Senate colleagues in upholding the Constitution.

Marcy Wheeler writes a letter to Obama:

Senator Obama, you are asking voters to choose you to become the President of the United States. You had to as Senator–and will as President–swear an oath to protect and defend the Constitution.

You cannot remain silent on this issue and at the same time fulfill your promise, the one you have made, and the one you will make, to defend the Constitution. Remaining silent rejects the separation of powers. Remaining silent presumes that the “political branches” can simply legislate the Courts into submission. And remaining silent communicates that you–the next President of the United States–believes checks on executive power like habeas corpus and the Fourth Amendment are mere niceties and not foundational principles of this great nation.

As the presumptive leader of the Democratic Party, you can lead your fellow Senators in rejecting this unconstitutional law. But without your leadership, the Constitution will suffer a dangerous blow.

UPDATED 1: Obama has come out with a statement via Glenn Greenwald:

Quote:
Quote:

Given the grave threats that we face, our national security agencies must have the capability to gather intelligence and track down terrorists before they strike, while respecting the rule of law and the privacy and civil liberties of the American people. . . .

After months of negotiation, the House today passed a compromise that, while far from perfect, is a marked improvement over last year’s Protect America Act. . . It does, however, grant retroactive immunity, and I will work in the Senate to remove this provision so that we can seek full accountability for past offenses.


Quote:

It is not all that I would want. But given the legitimate threats we face, providing effective intelligence collection tools with appropriate safeguards is too important to delay. So I support the compromise, but do so with a firm pledge that as President, I will carefully monitor the program, review the report by the Inspectors General, and work with the Congress to take any additional steps I deem necessary to protect the lives -– and the liberty –- of the American people.



Quote:

He says he will work to remove amnesty from the bill, but once that fails, will vote for the “compromise.” Obama has obviously calculated that sacrificing the rule of law and the Fourth Amendment is a worthwhile price to pay to bolster his standing a tiny bit in a couple of swing states. The full Obama statement is here.

UPDATED 2: Digby says:

Quote:

Roy Blunt and Steny Hoyer are practically tongue kissing on the floor right now and congratulating each other on their mutual fabulousness in negotiating the rape of the constitution this morning. It’s quite a love fest.



Quote:

Capitulating to the most unpopular lame duck president in history because they are afraid of him. Makes you proud to be a Democrat doesn’t it…read on

UPDATE 3: Atrios names Obama: “Wanker of the Day “

Wanker of the day indeed. Total betrayal of what is suppose to happen.

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Edwin wrote:
If she really believed in it—she would have urged her colleagues to vote for it, she did not.

This sentence grabbed me. Oh how I love this political spin BS. If she didn't believe in it, she shouldn't have voted for it. Voting for it and expecting some sort of sympathy because you still thought it was wrong shows how little integrity you really have.

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Agreed. I never liked her once I found out that impeachment was off the table.

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I hate that things are turning back into "vote for the lesser of two evils". For a long while, I'd been really jazzed about how Obama was seemingly changing how politics were done in Washington. Now, with this and other issues, he's just turning into the same old politician who'll say things to keep from not getting elected.

*sigh* I'd been excited about finally getting my American citizenship paperwork underway (I'm a Canadian citizen), and now... not so much. Oh well.

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Edwin wrote:
Wanker of the day indeed. Total betrayal of what is suppose to happen.

You're going to see a lot of this kind of thing from Obama. The guy is playing the game to win, and he's going to pick his battles on security carefully. It will be interesting to see just how irritated the left becomes with him over the next five months. Note this in the quoted material:

Obama has obviously calculated that sacrificing the rule of law and the Fourth Amendment is a worthwhile price to pay to bolster his standing a tiny bit in a couple of swing states.

Certainly this is true. But it's true that if Obama doesn't bolster his standing in swing states he could lose the election. Is it worth surrendering telecom immunity if it means ensuring that McCain isn't able to create a supreme court majority filled with hardcore right wingers?

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Ideally, one shouldn't have an effect on the other. There have been a lot of Democrats who are in red districts who opposed telecom immunity and have still won their elections.

Pragmatically, you have a point. I'd rather see Obama win and be able to make the next bout of appointments to the Supreme Court that will re-balance the makeup of the judiciary. I just wish THIS weren't one of the issues where he dropped the ball.

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Long term view couldn't Obama put a couple of democratic-leaning judges on the Supreme Court and then when the case against this law works it way there the court strikes this law down?

If this immunity issue is important to you, then do not vote to re-elect the incumbent congressional members that approved it, or even volunteer for the opposition's campaign.

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Obama tries to make good?

CBSnews wrote:
Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., issued a statement in support of the House's update of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, but said he would try to strip a provision granting immunity to telecommunication companies when the bill comes to a vote in the Senate next week.

More here

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This one is really tearing me up as I would like to support Obama without reservation but this is stone cold political maneuvering at it's worst. The only thing I can think of is that the average joe hasn't followed this at all and if he were to follow though on his promise to oppose this then the Republicans can come up with a neat sound bite (requiring little explanation or fact) to beat him with. Very disappointed to say the least ...

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Quote:
MoveOn, who supported Obama during the primary fight has just issued a letter asking Obama to keep his word:

On Friday, House Democrats caved to the Bush administration and passed a bill giving a get-out-of-jail-free card to phone companies that helped Bush illegally spy on innocent Americans.1

This Monday, the fight moves to the Senate. Senator Russ Feingold says the “deal is not a compromise; it is a capitulation.”2 Barack Obama announced his partial support for the bill, but said, “It does, however, grant retroactive immunity, and I will work in the Senate to remove this provision so that we can seek full accountability for past offenses.”3

Last year, after phone calls from MoveOn members and others, Obama went so far as to vow to “support a filibuster of any bill that includes retroactive immunity for telecommunications companies.”4 We need him to honor that promise.

Can you call Senator Obama today and tell him you’re counting on him to keep his word? Ask him to block any compromise that includes immunity for phone companies that helped Bush break the law.

Obama’s presidential campaign: (866) 675-2008

Then, help us track our progress by clicking here:

Sign the petition here.

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While it's convenient to center the grievance with the bill's version on Obama, it would do well if everyone contacted their own Senators as well.

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So, I'm not completely aware of everything that happened in regards to the topic of this thread, but from my understanding...

The phone companies, under "orders" from the President, helped him tap phone calls of American Citizens without proper warrants.

I guess my question is, if what the phone companies did is illegal and they should be punished for it, why the hell isn't the President being punished? He's the one that ordered the illegal taps? Yeah, its all great to take down the phone companies, but what about the top dog, the one who orchastrated it all?

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Tkyl wrote:
So, I'm not completely aware of everything that happened in regards to the topic of this thread, but from my understanding...

The phone companies, under "orders" from the President, helped him tap phone calls of American Citizens without proper warrants.

I guess my question is, if what the phone companies did is illegal and they should be punished for it, why the hell isn't the President being punished? He's the one that ordered the illegal taps? Yeah, its all great to take down the phone companies, but what about the top dog, the one who orchastrated it all?

Because, per Pelosi and Reid, "impeachment is off the table", which... whatever.

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I contacted my senator first time this bill was going around. I told him the constitution was VERY clear about this issue and that considering the president can pardon any single criminal that he sees fit, I could find no reason to provide blanket immunity to a group of people who may have committed a crime.

In the reply letter, I was essentially told that my senator trusted the president on this issue.

I repeat, this all makes me sick to my stomach. I can't describe how utterly WRONG all this unchecked power leaves me feeling.

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Tkyl wrote:
I guess my question is, if what the phone companies did is illegal and they should be punished for it, why the hell isn't the President being punished? He's the one that ordered the illegal taps? Yeah, its all great to take down the phone companies, but what about the top dog, the one who orchastrated it all?

Also, realize that civil-liberties folks have been stymied, stonewalled, and "state secret"-ed out of every attempt to investigate the Bush administration. Because most of the Democrats in Congress are essentially working for Bush at this point, there's no recourse that way - which leaves court cases. This telecom thing is a chink in the wall they have put up, which is why the telecoms are being pursued so vigorously; if they can be forced to reveal details of what went on, it could open real investigations into the many, many illegal things the Bush administration has allegedly done.

Remember: this conversation is just between you and me ... and the NSA.
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And the company that refused to play the game was dropped from the competition for several lucrative contracts. They are the ones who sacrificed.

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weswilson wrote:
I contacted my senator first time this bill was going around. I told him the constitution was VERY clear about this issue and that considering the president can pardon any single criminal that he sees fit, I could find no reason to provide blanket immunity to a group of people who may have committed a crime.

In the reply letter, I was essentially told that my senator trusted the president on this issue.

I did the same thing. Both of my Senators stood against the telecoms immunity the first time around, and re-affirmed their resolve to fight the retroactive immunity and no-warrant provisions of the FISA bill demanded by the White House. Let's see how things go today on the Senate floor.

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Aetius wrote:
Also, realize that civil-liberties folks have been stymied, stonewalled, and "state secret"-ed out of every attempt to investigate the Bush administration.

And the right will mention the ACLU in the same breath as the Taliban and Hamas. Best way to avoid a question is to make it treason to ask, I guess.

NOTE: This is not a doodle bug.

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Run, don’t walk…

Christy at FDL has all the pertinent numbers.

Quote:

There has always been a tension between individual liberty and governmental power. National security issues are a natural fault line, given the difficulty of protecting the nation while simultaneously upholding the values of freedom and liberty. And politicians, bless their hearts, always try to find ways to consolidate their power while pretending to do so in the public interest — and not their own and that of their cronies who benefit in some way from their decisions.

They miscalculated this time regarding how many people in America are paying attention to civil liberties concerns these days. And it is our job to make certain that they learn just how badly they have misjudged this.

It is one of the many reasons we are working so hard to build incentive through our Blue America FISA actions. (You can donate here.)

UPDATE: Sen. Russ Feingold has a factsheet on FISA and why it’s a bad deal for Americans. 

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Called my Senators this morning, like Mitch McConnell gives a sh*t but I called anyway.

Found this comic on the subject rather funny.

http://www.overcompensating.com/posts/20080623.html

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I wrote, called, and faxed my senator (Bill Nelson FL) and he replied with this.

Quote:
Thank you for contacting me about the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA).

On February 12, 2008, the Senate passed an updated version of FISA (S. 2248) by a vote of 68-29. The bill contains protections for Americans’ civil liberties beyond those in the Protect America Act (which amended the FISA law last summer) while also enabling the U.S. to get the information it needs to stop terrorist plots.

During the FISA debates, I cosponsored an amendment offered by Senator Feinstein that would have modified one part of the bill on telephone company immunity. Specifically, it would have allowed lawsuits to go forward unless the FISA courts grant immunity to the telecommunications companies after a three-step judicial review. This amendment failed by a 57-41 vote, as a majority of 60 votes was required for passage. I also supported an amendment that would have allowed lawsuits against these companies to proceed with the Federal government substituted as the defendant. Unfortunately, this amendment also failed on the Senate floor.

I appreciate your taking the time to inform me of your views, and don’t hesitate to contact me again in the future.

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Aetius wrote:
Tkyl wrote:
I guess my question is, if what the phone companies did is illegal and they should be punished for it, why the hell isn't the President being punished? He's the one that ordered the illegal taps? Yeah, its all great to take down the phone companies, but what about the top dog, the one who orchastrated it all?

Also, realize that civil-liberties folks have been stymied, stonewalled, and "state secret"-ed out of every attempt to investigate the Bush administration. Because most of the Democrats in Congress are essentially working for Bush at this point, there's no recourse that way - which leaves court cases. This telecom thing is a chink in the wall they have put up, which is why the telecoms are being pursued so vigorously; if they can be forced to reveal details of what went on, it could open real investigations into the many, many illegal things the Bush administration has allegedly done.

Well, it's all one big happy family. It's not Republicans vs. Democrats - it's politicians vs. the people.

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Edwin's picture
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This angers me greatly.

Quote:

An analysis by LightMAP.org reveals that the 94 Democrats who changed their position on FISA since March are being flooded with donations from the companies who they now want to give a free pass. Shouldn’t this be illegal or something?

Politico:

Quote:

Dems who flipped on FISA immunity see more telecom cash

House Democrats who flipped their votes to support retroactive immunity for telecom companies in last week’s FISA bill took thousands of dollars more from phone companies than Democrats who consistently voted against legislation with an immunity provision, according to an analysis by MAPLight.org.

The 94 Democrats who changed their positions received on average $8,359 in contributions from Verizon, AT&T and Sprint from January, 2005, to March, 2008, according to the analysis by MAPLight, a nonpartisan organization that tracks the connection between campaign contributions and legislative outcomes. 

edit:

Quote:
EFF and others have long suspected that one reason the White House and its allies have fought for telecom immunity so fervently has been their fear that a judicial ruling on the legality of telecoms' participation would lead to a ruling rejecting the legality of the Administration's warrantless wiretapping program itself.

Today, the Director of National Intelligence McConnell and Attorney General Mukasey confirmed as much in a letter opposing amendments to the FISA bill. The DNI and AG wrote that allowing a court to rule on the constitutionality of the Administration's arguments for warrantless wiretapping "is unacceptable." They argue that "the aim of the amendment appears to be an adjudication of the Government's prior actions," and that "by requiring a merits adjudication of the plaintiffs' constitutional claims" the proposed amendment "would significantly negate a major purpose of the retroactive liability protections" (emphasis added).

So there you have it — the Administration admits that the reason for telecom immunity is to avoid judicial scrutiny of their extremist view of Executive power under the constitution.

Why might they be so concerned? Because the Administration would lose. As we've noted, numerous third party legal experts, including former government officials and respected law professors, have concluded that the Bush Administration's constitutional argument (which the DNI and AG are now trying to avoid litigating) "fails to offer a plausible legal defense of the NSA domestic spying program."

Faced with the prospect of having a judge actually evaluate whether the John Yoo and David Addington theories of unlimited presidential power hold water, the DNI and AG now beg the Senate to sweep it under the rug.

Call your Senator today, and you can help put a stop to this cover-up.

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Just got word from the EFF that the Senate vote has been delayed until after the July 4th break!

http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2008/06/senate-delays-vote-immunity

Quote:
It's official: Thanks to overwhelming grassroots action, and the heroic efforts of Senators Dodd and Feingold, the Senate's vote on whether to grant phone companies immunity from the law for assisting in the President's illegal wiretapping program has been delayed until after July 4th Recess!

This is an unexpected reprieve for civil liberties and the rule of law. As recently as last night, the mainstream press was reporting that the immunity bill would see swift and uncontested approval. Senate Leaders emphasized that passing an immunity bill this week was one of their highest priorities. And yet, in the end, the bill simply wasn't as uncontested and noncontroversial as the pundits and politicans thought it was.

Longtime followers of the immunity issue may be reminded of similar events last December. Then, as now, it was widely expected that the Senate would rubber-stamp an immunity bill with no meaningful debate. And then, as now, overwhelming grassroots pressure unexpectedly derailed the bill. That set the stage for a critical victory in March, when the house stood strong against immunity.

Similarly, today's unexpected delay gives us time to shift the political dynamic in a more reasonable direction. The best hope lies in the amendments that will be introduced before the final vote on the bill. One, championed by Senators Dodd and Feingold, would strip immunity provisions entirely. Another, from New Mexico Senator Bingaman, would delay implementation of the immunity provisions until after Congress had the benefit of the Inspectors General report on the President's surveillance program that is required by the bill.

EFF would like to extend its sincere thanks to everyone who's taken up this cause as their own. Whether you've contacted your Congressperson, blogged or written your thoughts on the issue, or just talked it over with friends, your action has made a difference today.

In the meantime, contact Senators Dodd, Feingold and Bingaman to send them your thanks and encouragement for their efforts. They have done all Americans proud this week, and their efforts and support will be critical in the coming weeks. Then, if you haven't already, contact your own Senators and tell them where you stand.

So is it just me being silly or does anyone think that the Democrats are simply trying to delay this without letting any of their constituents look soft on terrorism? I mean any House member can say "I passed the FISA bill" and any Senate member can say "I passed the FISA bill" and they're both telling the truth, yet it still doesn't get passed. Maybe I'm just being too optimistic wishing the Democrats aren't as spineless as they appear.

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