Creationists are trying a new tactic: "Strengths and Weaknesses"

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From the NYT article:

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DALLAS — Opponents of teaching evolution, in a natural selection of sorts, have gradually shed those strategies that have not survived the courts. Over the last decade, creationism has given rise to “creation science,” which became “intelligent design,” which in 2005 was banned from the public school curriculum in Pennsylvania by a federal judge.

Now a battle looms in Texas over science textbooks that teach evolution, and the wrestle for control seizes on three words. None of them are “creationism” or “intelligent design” or even “creator.”

The words are “strengths and weaknesses.”

Starting this summer, the state education board will determine the curriculum for the next decade and decide whether the “strengths and weaknesses” of evolution should be taught. The benign-sounding phrase, some argue, is a reasonable effort at balance. But critics say it is a new strategy taking shape across the nation to undermine the teaching of evolution, a way for students to hear religious objections under the heading of scientific discourse.

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I think I see where they're going with this. If they point out the "weaknesses" of evolution, some kid is going to ask, "then what's the alternative?" And, well, they can't very well ignore a good question like that now can they? I also wonder where from they intend to draw their list of weaknesses. Are these weaknesses that scientists agree are problems, or are these Creationist talking points that aren't actually unaccounted if you go any more recent than Darwin?

I dunno, I don't have a problem with pointing out weak points in any scientific theory. It gets people to ask questions and leads to answers. I do think that this kind of thing ought to be reserved for college or graduate-level classes so the students have enough background to really think critically. Otherwise it's just a wink and a nudge to not believe what they're being taught.

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I wonder if they're going to insist upon similar "strengths and weaknesses" analyses for germ theory and gravity.

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Strengths: Scientifically viable.

Weaknesses: If you believe it you're going to Hell and you don't want to go to Hell, do you?

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God never once mentioned germs in the Bible. Illnesses are caused by demons. (And yes, I've met people who still believe that, and the Washington Post has done stories on exorcists who prey on them.)

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They should do this for lots of subjects, not just science. Grammar, for one.

Standards for grammar?

Strength: Provides for a consistent standard of communication, minimizing the likelihood that ideas will fail to be conveyed in a comprehensible manner.

Weakness: It done takes a bunch of time getting all them words fixed up straight in all that proper fancy writin'.

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Farscry wrote:

Weakness: It dun takes a bunch of tiem getting all them wordz fixxd up strayt in all that proper fansy rightin'.

Decided to modify that to be a bit more accurate.

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There is no doubt whatsoever that creatures change over time, that new species arise and old ones go extinct. The evidence that this happens is staggeringly huge, enormous beyond comprehension. It's visible in every field that looks back in time. At the very least, it's in archaeology, geology, taxonomy, and as an extension of taxonomy, genetics. There's probably more fields that I can't think of just now.

You could spend your entire life reading, and not even touch a thousandth of the evidence pointing toward change over time and the gradual increase of creature sophistication. This is fact. It's not open to debate.

The Theory of Evolution, on the other hand, is our best explanation for why creatures change over time. Like all theories, it's a guess, and it's subject to change. But, so far, it's the only theory that covers all the available evidence. Creationism doesn't even try.

There is no weakness to the theory itself, and while individual bits of evidence aren't always that solid by themselves, taken in aggregate, they're incredibly powerful. The remaining central question, and one that has scientists very puzzled, is abiogenesis: how did life come from non-life? We can see, overall, a line pointing back in time, with simpler and simpler and simpler creatures, but we have no record of the process that created the first bit of self-replicating life. The very simplest life of all, the very first time it happened... that's a mystery. And it may remain one for a good long while yet.

Other than that -- there's no controversy in the scientific community about overall evolution, just details. There's just too much evidence. It's like arguing that there's a controversy over things falling down when you drop them.

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God never once mentioned germs in the Bible. Illnesses are caused by demons. (And yes, I've met people who still believe that, and the Washington Post has done stories on exorcists who prey on them.)

Interesting view, I would disagree with your premise however. See below. While the word germ is never mentioned in the Bible, God gives specific instruction regarding them.

G.R. Jeffrey wrote:

The laws of Moses contained specific laws and sanitation procedures that, would eliminate the dreadful diseases that afflicted the Egyptians of that day and still afflict people in the Third World today. It is fascinating to note that out of the 613 biblical commandments found in the Torah, 213 were medical regulations that insured the good health of the children of Israel.

Until this century, Doctors believed that the presence and transmission of disease was governed by random chance or luck. Those who were sick with deadly diseases were cared for in the home without any awareness of the contagious transmission of disease to other family members. People had no idea that invisible deadly microscopic germs could exist on eating and cooking utensils.

In Leviticus 6:28, (written over thirty-five hundred years ago) is a clear commandment to discard used pottery that may be contaminated with bacteria (the glaze may have been cracked and could contain harmful germs): "But the earthen vessel in which it (the meat) is boiled shall be broken. And if it is boiled in a bronze pot, it shall be both scoured and rinsed in water." In other words, vessels subject to contamination should be discarded. Metal pots should be disinfected by scouring and rinsing in water.

Over the years these instructions saved hundreds of thousands of Jews from infections at a time when the world didn't know about germs.

Moses' writing also reveals a knowledge of deadly germs associated with dead bodies. Throughout history people stored and cooked their meat with ample spices to delay the rotting and to disguise the smell of decay. Without refrigeration, the eating of meat was often hazardous because of the danger of infection.

In Leviticus 11:35, Moses wrote, "And everything on which a part of any such carcass falls shall be unclean; whether it is an oven or cooking stove, it shall be broken down; for they are unclean, and shall be unclean to you."

God inspired Moses to record these medical and sanitation instructions in the Bible to protect the Israelites from deadly germs found in dead animals. Leviticus 7:24 forbids the people to eat of the flesh of any animal that has died naturally of disease or by wild animals: "And the fat of a beast that dies naturally, and the fat of what is torn by wild animals, may be used in any other way; but you shall by no means eat it."

An animal carcass found after natural death would be dangerous to eat because it would likely contain the germs that caused its death. Infectious germs develop within hours of an animal killed by another animal. The children of Israel were saved from germs and diseases by following these religious laws given by their God through Moses.

"This is the law when a man dies in a tent: All who come into the tent and all who are in the tent shall be unclean seven days; and every open vessel, which has no cover fastened on it, is unclean. Whoever in the open field touches one who is slain by a sword or who has died, or a bone of a man, or a grave, shall be unclean seven days. And for an unclean person they shall take some of the ashes of the heifer burnt for purification from sin, and running water shall be put on them in a vessel" (Numbers 19:14-17).

Germs from a dead human body are dangerous to humans. These deadly germs are everywhere, but especially within the bodies of those who are already sick or those who have died due to some disease. Why the seven day waiting period? That gave time to see if the person got ill from touching the dead body.

Thousands of years ago, God commanded the Israelites to wash their hands in "running water" when dealing with those afflicted with infectious diseases. "And when he who has a discharge is cleansed of his discharge, then he shall count for himself seven days for his cleansing, wash his clothes, and bathe his body in running water; then he shall be clean" (Leviticus 15:13).

Until this century most doctors who did choose to wash their hands, did so in a bowl of water which obviously would allow the germs to remain on their hands. However, Moses instructed the Israelites to wash in "running water" which is the only way to effectively remove these infectious germs.

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And just when you thought those Discovery Institute yahoos were on the ropes...

So this crap will be picked up and it will go to the courts again only to be ruled Creationism in disguise.

It's just sad that Americans are so ignorant of the scientific method that they don't understand what a theory is and that if evolution had any "weaknesses" it would no longer be considered a viable theory. I mean all that has to happen for someone to uncover a single example, like a mammal fossil in a Cambrian zone, and everything would have to be completely rethought.

Malor wrote:

The remaining central question, and one that has scientists very puzzled, is abiogenesis: how did life come from non-life? We can see, overall, a line pointing back in time, with simpler and simpler and simpler creatures, but we have no record of the process that created the first bit of self-replicating life. The very simplest life of all, the very first time it happened... that's a mystery. And it may remain one for a good long while yet.

That's what they're really terrified of. Science will explain away their god.

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The guy... the guy saying he believes in Jesus and the immaculate conception, but his belief in Intelligent Design over Evolution was due to scientific evidence...

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Farscry wrote:
They should do this for lots of subjects, not just science. Grammar, for one.

Standards for grammar?

Strength: Provides for a consistent standard of communication, minimizing the likelihood that ideas will fail to be conveyed in a comprehensible manner.

Weakness: It done takes a bunch of time getting all them words fixed up straight in all that proper fancy writin'.

We could do this for hours.

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I still assert that evolution and the idea of an intelligent design are not mutually exclusive. There is no reason that both can't co-exist. They don't answer the same questions. One is the 'how', and the other is the 'why'.

Quote:
That's what they're really terrified of. Science will explain away their god.

Science can't explain away God. Any more than it can prove him.


Edited because it needed it

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JohnnyMoJo wrote:
I still assert that evolution and the idea of an intelligent design are not mutually exclusive. There is no reason that both can't exist. They don't answer the same questions. One is the 'how', and the other is the 'why'.

They do exist, but one is science, the other is religion trying to pass itself off as science.

JohnnyMoJo wrote:

Quote:
That's what they're really terrified of. Science will explain away their god.

Science can't explain away God. Any more than it can prove him.

While science probably couldn't explain away God, it can explain away things that have been attributed to God. Just because science hasn't figured out how life began on Earth, it doesn't mean that it won't, just that it hasn't yet.

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Quote:
I still assert that evolution and the idea of an intelligent design are not mutually exclusive.

Not if we're arguing in a vacuum. But in the physical world that we inhabit, we have astounding amounts of evidence for actual explanations for apparent design, while the intelligent designer hypothesis is just that; a hypothesis, and a failed one. It has never been able to turn up a single scrap of evidence in its favor. Evolution and design are not automatically logically exclusive. The body of evidence as it exists today, and design, are.

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Abiogenesis /= Evolutionary theory. Both are different. You can believe whatever you want to believe on how biological material came to this planet. However once it came to the planet evolutionary theory does have meaning and a place in trying to explain what happened next.

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JohnnyMoJo wrote:
I still assert that evolution and the idea of an intelligent design are not mutually exclusive. There is no reason that both can't co-exist. They don't answer the same questions. One is the 'how', and the other is the 'why'.

Quote:
That's what they're really terrified of. Science will explain away their god.

Science can't explain away God. Any more than it can prove him.


Edited because it needed it

Read up in intelligent design again. It claims both the how AND the why.

Science doesn't want to prove or disprove God. It's just trying to explain the world around us.

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OG_slinger wrote:
JohnnyMoJo wrote:
I still assert that evolution and the idea of an intelligent design are not mutually exclusive. There is no reason that both can't co-exist. They don't answer the same questions. One is the 'how', and the other is the 'why'.

Quote:
That's what they're really terrified of. Science will explain away their god.

Science can't explain away God. Any more than it can prove him.


Edited because it needed it

Read up in intelligent design again. It claims both the how AND the why.

Science doesn't want to prove or disprove God. It's just trying to explain the world around us.

And if a god doesn't fit into that picture... well, that's not science's problem.

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Morrolan wrote:
Quote:
I still assert that evolution and the idea of an intelligent design are not mutually exclusive.

Not if we're arguing in a vacuum. But in the physical world that we inhabit, we have astounding amounts of evidence for actual explanations for apparent design, while the intelligent designer hypothesis is just that; a hypothesis, and a failed one. It has never been able to turn up a single scrap of evidence in its favor. Evolution and design are not automatically logically exclusive. The body of evidence as it exists today, and design, are.

Exactly!
I have no problem with people believing that God created life on Earth, because we simply don't know how life originated as of yet. But that's not Intelligent Design. Intelligent Design is the "theory" that since life is so very complex, it must have been designed to be that way, which implies that there was a designer. Now, evolution can exist within ID, as the means that the designer uses to ensure their design is met, but that's not what ID proponents tend to want. They usually want ID taught in science classes as an alternative to natural selection; that the reason species change is because they were designed to, not because they developed inherent characteristics to better suit themselves to their environment. They don't want mutation and chance to be the reasons behind evolution; they want it to be God's Will. It makes me wonder how they'd feel about it if a group of humans evolved past them...would they accept that as part of the Designer's plan?
Edited for spelling.

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Stengah wrote:
that the reason species change is because they were designed to, not because they developed inherent characteristics to better suit themselves to their environment.

It's actually simpler then that. Creationists (sorry, ID proponents... no, wait theory weakness focused "researchers". It gets so confusing sometimes.) don't believe species were designed to change, they often contend that species don't change. If they do it's a mutation, and as we all know, mutations can only be harmful and kill you... so it can't possibly be evolutionarily advantageous. Right? right....?

Juxtaposed with their arguments against evolution dealing with the incomplete fossil record and bridge species it's really quite funny, in a "special" sort of way of course.

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Intelligent Design could be taught as part of a philosophy course, but I still cannot see where anyone thinks it holds up to be taught as science.

I mean, doesn't philosophy already cover the exact same area as intelligent design?

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Stengah wrote:
JohnnyMoJo wrote:
I still assert that evolution and the idea of an intelligent design are not mutually exclusive. There is no reason that both can't exist. They don't answer the same questions. One is the 'how', and the other is the 'why'.

They do exist, but one is science, the other is religion trying to pass itself off as science.

JohnnyMoJo wrote:

Quote:
That's what they're really terrified of. Science will explain away their god.

Science can't explain away God. Any more than it can prove him.

While science probably couldn't explain away God, it can explain away things that have been attributed to God. Just because science hasn't figured out how life began on Earth, it doesn't mean that it won't, just that it hasn't yet.

I'm not sure I follow this. Do you believe that a "true believer's" faith is so weak that if man does completely figure out some unknown secret it no longer becomes a providence of God? So far I've not come across such an event that I cannot say "Wow, God sure did a neat job with that."

What gets me in these discussions is how much wasted effort is spent on trying to determine where we came from (on both sides) as it relates to the Bible. Even outside the discussion of science classes in school, the "where we came from" argument has been a fighting point. Fortunately, the Bible really isn't about where we came from (although many believers and nonbelievers for some reason want to make it out to be), it's about where mankind is going.

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Quote:
Abiogenesis /= Evolutionary theory. Both are different. You can believe whatever you want to believe on how biological material came to this planet. However once it came to the planet evolutionary theory does have meaning and a place in trying to explain what happened next.

I don't think that's completely true. It's entirely obvious that evolution happens; creatures change over time, and the Earth is billions of years old. This is Rock-of-Gibraltar level fact. But, until we have an explanation of how life came from nonlife, the theory of evolution is incomplete. I don't think anything is served by pretending otherwise.

The theory being incomplete doesn't weaken the validity of the evidence. That evidence exists, period, and creationism simply doesn't work to explain it. No other theory I've encountered does, in fact.

Evolution is our best explanation. It's a damn good one, but it's not done yet. Few things in science ever are.

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Malor wrote:
Evolution is our best explanation. It's a damn good one, but it's not done yet. Few things in science ever are.

That's the nature of science, and people who aren't familiar with science can't seem to understand that.

It's not a bad thing for a scientific theory to be incomplete, it's generally a good thing, it causes more people to look into it and a greater chance of a breakthrough in our understanding of the world we live in (whether God created it or not, it's still useful to understand how it works).

Any good scientist cares more about their being a better understanding of the way something works than his particular theory about it being correct. This is a fundamental difference between a scientist and a non-scientist, specifically a religious person/leader. If the religion is wrong, you're pretty much f*cked, so the religion can't be wrong. If your theory is wrong, you've helped rule out a possible explanation and gotten closer to finding the truth.

If someone finds something in the fossil record that completely nullifies the Theory of Evolution, it is in the long term a good thing, because it means that we're no longer looking into a flawed theory and we're able to get off that dead end and try to find the truth. The difference being that it needs to be real, scientific evidence disproving Evolution, not rhetoric and unsubstantiated claims.

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Quote:
Fortunately, the Bible really isn't about where we came from (although many believers and nonbelievers for some reason want to make it out to be), it's about where mankind is going.

Yep, except for those two version of genesis in beginning it's all about where we're going... not how we were formed from clay and ribs or anything like that.

Look, you may see it as a parable, you may see it as whatever it is that allows you to see God in science, but the fact of the matter is that ID proponents don't. They're all about rejecting evolution, that's it. They'll use every dirty trick they can think of, every con-artist ploy they can get away with, all in an attempt to eject evolutionary theory from the nation's science classrooms and replace it with a literal interpretation of literalist Christian creationism.

What they believe, and what you believe, are not compatible.

kaostheory wrote:
If someone finds something in the fossil record that completely nullifies the Theory of Evolution, it is in the long term a good thing, because it means that we're no longer looking into a flawed theory and we're able to get off that dead end and try to find the truth. The difference being that it needs to be real, scientific evidence disproving Evolution, not rhetoric and unsubstantiated claims.

That, and they'd certainly win a Nobel and like go down as one of the most famous scientists in history right up there with Galileo, Newton, Einstein, and Darwin. Hardly incentive to "go along with the conspiracy", as some creationists contend.

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I often wonder where this animosity to evolutionary theory comes from. What is the motivation behind this kind of passion? Modern science has debunked a whole LOT of fundamentalist beliefs, but it seems evolutionary biology is really the only one that receives this kind of treatment.

My pal the former Tennessee dairy farmer and Vandy grad (overeducated elitist) claims that it is racially driven. According to him, good white folks in the rural south just can't stomach the thought that their ancestors came from Africa.

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Paleocon wrote:
I often wonder where this animosity to evolutionary theory comes from. What is the motivation behind this kind of passion? Modern science has debunked a whole LOT of fundamentalist beliefs, but it seems evolutionary biology is really the only one that receives this kind of treatment.

People don't want to believe their existence is random.

Malor wrote:
I don't think that's completely true. It's entirely obvious that evolution happens; creatures change over time, and the Earth is billions of years old. This is Rock-of-Gibraltar level fact. But, until we have an explanation of how life came from nonlife, the theory of evolution is incomplete. I don't think anything is served by pretending otherwise.

Darwin never intended to propose how life began. He had a theory behind how things change to adapt to their environment. Answering where biological material first came from is an entirely different matter.

And what if life came from other life? Or from an omnipotent being? Or it came from the primordial soup? This has no effect on Darwin's theories nor modern evolutionary theory.

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Paleocon wrote:
My pal the former Tennessee dairy farmer and Vandy grad (overeducated elitist) claims that it is racially driven. According to him, good white folks in the rural south just can't stomach the thought that their ancestors came from Africa.

Kansas, Ohio and Pennsylvania are hardly in the deep south.

I agree with Mayfield.. It's the descended from monkeys part that is hard for some of the Creator's Special Children(TM) to resonate with.

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Mayfield wrote:
Darwin never intended to propose how life began. He had a theory behind how things change to adapt to their environment. Answering where biological material first came from is an entirely different matter.

And what if life came from other life? Or from an omnipotent being? Or it came from the primordial soup? This has no effect on Darwin's theories nor modern evolutionary theory.

But isn't that eventually a question that evolutionary biology has to eventually ask and answer?

What caused the evolution from non-life to life? How did something go from non-living to living? It wasn't living, so how could it have reproduced with mutation? It's a very interesting question that I'm sure plenty of Evolutionary Biologists would love to find the answer to, and I'm sure there are some working on it as we speak.

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Nomad, are you *sure* you want to hold Levitican law up as an example of getting it right?

The obvious rejoinder is that while they evolved social behaviors that helped them avoid diseases, and enshrined those as "God's laws", Jesus was still casting out demons to heal people. There was no transmission of any information that was beyond the understanding of the time, and much suffering ensued because of that oversight. Not just from a lack of understanding of disease, but from of the obviously tribal laws of the time. Leviticus is pretty brutal.

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