In a startling turn of events, this American chooses to let you crazy Europeans do your own thing. I would be interested in you sharing your thoughts, though.

I miss the 2003 EU constitution draft, which began with the words: "Conscious that Europe is a continent that has brought forth civilization"... It's a shame that document didn't make it.

I'll be voting yes as well, Eoin, but the Treaty does face a major problem. It is a serious of amendments to previous treaties and therefore its very difficult to explain to the punters on the street what the changes are. Conversely, the no campaign have, just like Nice, can spread lies and half-truths about neutrality, taxes, law, sovereignty, abortion and a myriad over other hot button topics. Its worth pointing out that the leader, Justin Barrett, of the "No to Nice" campaign holds pretty strong anti-immigration views and spoke at far-right rally's in Germany and Italy. Credit where credit is due, the campaign was effective at energising the backwards and bigoted elements in our country to vote no and unfortunately the turnout was so pitiful that they won by a slim margin.

Thankfully it was run again. Say all you want about it being undemocratic but sometimes, and here is a dangerous thought, the people aren't right. They were wrong on the Nice Treaty as the evidence of the last five years with Ireland becoming the second richest country per capita in the world and none of the dire predictions ever coming true. Yes we've seen an influx for foreigners, some 300,000 Polish and 100,000 Chinese are the largest groups, but they are only doing jobs we are not prepared to do and they are certainly don't have a dire effect on our country. In fact, just the opposite. The re-run result with a far larger turnout resulted resounding Yes which came with a sense of relief with a tinge of embarrassment in decent society.

The EU has made the Treaty available in consolidated form and the ordinary punter can now read it and decide for himself. This is basically the constitution of Europe (sssh don't say that out loud) but I don't have a problem with that. This constitution doesn't supercede our own and its vital for an organisation this large to have one. I'm sure the Americans can agree with me here. What has been heartening to see that more good information the Irish people get on this issue the more the No drops.

Ask yourself one simple question: Did 26 other countries get around a table, with our Taoiseach as chair, and decided to screw over themselves and particularity Ireland?

Aah but you see it's ok for europeans to talk about bringing forth civilization because we get to define real civilization as european civilization while everything else is just people living together and getting along within a rich tapestry of culture and history.

Not sure what you mean? The Europeans, by and large, have a huge interest in American politics for many reasons. Just as an example Ted Kennedy's illness made not only the broadsheets front pages but also stop red tops as well. That might be a bad example seeing as Ted is well loved by the Irish, also for many reasons, but even the current Democratic nomination and following presidential campaign is standard pub/cafe/restaurant/dinner party fare.

Does that answer it or did you mean something else?

Could not agree more. I have a simple theory that if the Germans can have 2 World Wars and get split up and then get reunited (by buying back the other half) and now be the world largest exporter they must be doing something right. Let those guys manage our central bank, I say.

Exactly. This was the first thought that came to my mind when I saw this topic.
And I'm actually pretty interested in US state of affairs, but, as you said, it's strange (and a bit ridiculous) to watch such passionate arguments that you have here from completely neutral viewpoint. So discussing about EU is nice for change ;]

In Poland the Treaty was very hotly debated this spring because there was some argument about whether Parliament or referendum should approve ratification of Treaty. Everything was completely downplayed to animosities between parties and had nothing to do with treaty itself - it was completely obvious that politicians themselves don't have any idea what treaty itself is about. At the end of the day it led to ridiculous situation where opposition party which ruled last year claimed that they won't support ratification of Treaty. For no particular reason they refused to vote for something that they've signed themselves... It shows how little this all have to do with actual Treaty.
As for voters themselves who wanted referendum - it's exactly the way you've said. Most of people neither have any idea what it's about nor they give a sh*t, they would vote 'no' for sake of nationalism and isolationism. Axon is right - people just ain't right. In most cases they end up as a subjects to some stupid demagogy.

Thanks. And see you soon ;]

Do you have an EU passport? They honestly might not let you stay.

Say "Brzęczyszczykiewicz", would you?
But your point's valid, that's exactly what I'm gonna do in near future

That question has troubled me all week and tried to answer it several times. Tell you what, I'll start a new thread and get a rip roaring discussion going soon enough. Deal?

UCRC, good luck man and by all means drop me a pm if you want any advice or help. Not sure were you are locating but I'm in Dublin myself. You probably have loads of mates over here already .

Hmm, I wouldn't quite paint either side like that, more the extremes of either side as opposed to the norm. You could very easily argue that we could take the approach that Iceland or Norway take with the EU (staying outside but negotiating trade deals) and furthur integration will erode our sovereignty. I respect that arguement and while disagreeing vehemently with it. I suspect you and me are more realists, realising that Ireland is a small country with a lot of good will towards it and integrating into a common market improves our economy and standing in the world while only trading away relativity small factors.

Same here (and in every other EU country, I think).

Me too. Drop a link when you start it.

Well, I have to get through my tougher university years/exams first (I'm one of youngest GWJers on these forums) because then I can take my one-year holidays and find a job but idea of drinking few pints of Guinness with fellow goodjer(s) appeals to me, sir ;]

Of all the island, I've only really seen Cork and the southwest. A good portion of the Irish who've moved to Chicago over the years are from that region, which tends to make Dubliners and their "Irish" accents sound awful strange to my ears.

Update time!

So our Taoiseach has resorted to begging the country to vote yes after the No side shot up by 17 points to pull level with the Yes side. Basically its a 3 way tie between Yes/No/Undecided.

Confusion over what the treaty actually does is the major cause but some do cite the lack of a permanent commissioner as a reason. I suspect though when push comes to shove and after a full week of serious work from all the major parties it will be passed by a large margin. I hope.

Football is a distant third as far as popularity in Ireland so we get a dispensation.

Yep, its on Thursday. I'm not sure when the count will commence but the I'd imagine we would have a result by Friday lunchtime.

So I'm back from my day as a presiding officer I can say that this will be pretty close. The turnout around 45-50% which isn't too bad for a referendum and it should be enough numbers to squeak past the No vote. We shall see around 2-3pm GMT.

9 out of the 12 Dublin districts are heading for a No. If the No vote climbs above 500,000 that will be an extremely bad result for the government.