What a nascent police state sounds like
Tuesday, May 6th, 2008 - 10:12pm
NPR's The Story - Bob Ginsberg (mp3, 23MB)
Skip to 34:45. Bob Ginsberg is a lawyer for one of the people in Guantanamo. The funny bit is how incompetent the tap is. 
Remember: this conversation is just between you and me ... and the NSA.
The first rule of the Nascent Police State is you don't talk about the Nascent Police State.
Seriously though, my urge to kill is rising--both for such a blatant Constitutional violation and the absolutely incompentent way it was done.
Articles about this come up a lot and I always take comfort in the freedom of the media.
Sure, the media might be spineless, irresponsible, vapid, obnoxious, and often biased (to one side or the other, kthxbye)... but I've still yet to hear of a reporter getting arrested for being critical of the US.
NOTE: This is not a doodle bug.
BF2142 Stats
If there was a tap I highly doubt that the government was doing it. Most modern phone systems aren't carried over copper exclusively anymore, and its much simpler to tap into the system when it goes digital. Don't get me wrong, I don't trust the government in the least, but I do have enough faith in that they are much more competent than this at this sort of thing.
"Also, I have four legs and am covered in wool. Baa!" *Legion* reveals his inner furry.
What do you mean by "critical of the US"? There have been multiple reporters arrested for asking "unsettling" questions at various government press conferences.
Really? We get news of people arrested in the US all the time during protests.
I'm not saying it's a police state yet, but in a police state you don't ever hear of people arrested for criticizing the government.
The man wears a bucket of KFC on his head. I wouldn't expect anything less. - Pred
What exactly does that mean? Links?
Fedaykin98 wrote:
Here is one example from the recent presidential debates. I have read of others but this was the easiest to find. This guy did have a CNN press pass from CNN, who was hosting the debate.
The question he asked was about Giuliani's statement to Peter Jennings shortly after 9/11 that he knew the buildings would collapse.
Most of these I have heard about involve the reporter getting arrested for trespassing, even though they are in the same area as dozens of other reporters.
Who, then? It's pretty clear that there is a tap - who else would the phone company protect like that?
Remember: this conversation is just between you and me ... and the NSA.
The government would have the phone company doing the tap at the point where it is bits in the sytem, no funky clicks, no distortions in the line quality. It's not like the government hasn't been doing phone taps for a long time and doesn't know how to do them.
"Also, I have four legs and am covered in wool. Baa!" *Legion* reveals his inner furry.
You didn't answer the question.
You say it can't be the government, yet clearly the people they talked to are convinced it's a tap, and the phone company is being very circumspect in dealing with the issue. Who then is tapping the line? Al-Qaeda? The Mafia? Are you saying that it's not a tap, and it was a random thing that his wife picked up the phone and heard him talking to a client?
Remember: this conversation is just between you and me ... and the NSA.
Why it's obvious the Illuminiti working with the freemasons.
"Also, I have four legs and am covered in wool. Baa!" *Legion* reveals his inner furry.
Well, whatever the government should be doing, you could always hear the recorders come on using military phone lines.
And remember, the Japanese aren't commercially whaling. They're conducting "research". Like "researching how delicious this whale is". - Paleocon
People who ask unsettling questions get tased, bro.
Xbox Live: hubbinsd
Excellent point. The idea that the "gubmint" is some kind of monolithic entity with omniscient powers may play well into the delusions of conspiracy theorists, but the reality is in many ways both more benign and more sinister. Anyone who has ever worked for the "gubmint" knows that, like any poorly integrated large organization, there are petty rivalries, power struggles, and competing allegiances. The resources of one organization are not always available to another.
The biggest problems arise, however, when you create an environment in which oversight and transparency is discouraged. This encourages abuses from petty groups who feel immunized from accountability. The "war on terror" has created exactly this environment.
There is only an up or down--up to a man's age-old dream, the ultimate in individual freedom consistent with law and order--or down to the ant heap totalitarianism,... those who would trade our freedom for security have embarked on this downward course.
I think there's a difference between protestors/conspiracy theorists and legitimate reporters, and you'll find it's very, very rare that charges against any of the three ever stick. There's a chilling effect, yes, but my point is that real critics with real concerns are not permanently silenced. However the mechanism, you can't open a newspaper these days without seeing a story critical of the government (of course that's probably just because the media has such a strong liberal bias).
Aetius presented a legitimate question about something you claimed. There's no need to be snarky, unless you're trying to obfuscate your lack of a real answer.
In that sort of situation, it's in their interest that you know you're being monitored.
NOTE: This is not a doodle bug.
BF2142 Stats
It sure is. When I went through basic training, it never occurred to me how odd it was that the drill sergeants carried loaded pistols to the rifle range during our initial qualification. Crazy Private Pyle scenarios aside, what I was referring to was the notion:
I've worked with and for the government for far too long. The people are mostly good but the system is horribly flawed. I went to exchange my body armor in Iraq but my request was denied even though they had plenty of the new models on-hand. When I asked why, they said they were only for emergencies. I nodded and asked, 'Emergency, huh? Like, a war?' All I walked out of there with was some dirty looks.
And remember, the Japanese aren't commercially whaling. They're conducting "research". Like "researching how delicious this whale is". - Paleocon
Lol. Isn't body armor, by definition, one of those things you'll need before the emergency becomes... well... emergent?
There is only an up or down--up to a man's age-old dream, the ultimate in individual freedom consistent with law and order--or down to the ant heap totalitarianism,... those who would trade our freedom for security have embarked on this downward course.
I'm sure they'd be happy to replace his old armor once it fails.
NOTE: This is not a doodle bug.
BF2142 Stats
I can just hear the rusty wheels of logic grinding in the minds of those supply sergeants:
"Dammit, if those idiots don't stop getting these Interceptor plates blown up by IED's we won't have any left for emergencies!"
There is only an up or down--up to a man's age-old dream, the ultimate in individual freedom consistent with law and order--or down to the ant heap totalitarianism,... those who would trade our freedom for security have embarked on this downward course.
Snark notwithstanding, my answer is just as valid as the lack of a source for "the tap" as his was, or as equally legitimate as the lawyers paranoia induced delusions made "the Government" the source of it. Weird stuff happens with electronics sometimes, they do freaky things. It's ridiculously easy to tap into someones phone line, and I suspect that if you asked if your phoneline was tapped (which I have no reason to assume that it is), the phone company would give you the same no comment answer. If they told you when it wasn't , by default if they would not tell you it was not being tapped, you would know that it is.
"Also, I have four legs and am covered in wool. Baa!" *Legion* reveals his inner furry.
Oh, no. My supply sergeant happily indulged my ridiculous supply whims. It was the civilian contractors managed by the military that problems came from. When the supply chain was strictly routed through the military, we had little to no problems (aside from back-ordered parts) but when it branched; then we had problems.
That's basically what they were getting at.
And remember, the Japanese aren't commercially whaling. They're conducting "research". Like "researching how delicious this whale is". - Paleocon
Verizon lawyers delay case
What you're saying is that the detectives they had investigate the line are lying, and that Verizon's lawyers are delaying the case for other reasons that don't involve waiting for immunity to go through. Phone equipment is not simple, and it's certainly possible to mess something like this up - particularly if the equipment is old, which it is likely to be in rural Vermont. A Vermont Congressman is asking questions on Gensburg's behalf. You're saying that all these people are crazy, and don't have a leg to stand on.
Problems happen in complex systems, definitely. People get connected to other lines - it's rare, but it happens. But you're arguing that this man's home phone line was randomly connected to his specific work number on another phone switch miles away? And this person happens to be pretty high on the list of people who the FBI/NSA would like to surveil? I'm sorry, that's too unlikely. John Allen Paulos makes this point in his book Innumeracy. The odds of there being at least one random occurrence of such an error are pretty good, given the millions of phone connections and systems in the United States. I'm sure you can find incidences of this noted in the news somewhere. However, the odds of it randomly being this man, at this time, in this way are astronomically bad. I'll bet on the feds, thanks.
Lets take the old three-prong assault here: motive, means, and opportunity. If there is a tap (if you believe the investigators hired by Mr. Gensburg, and if you believe Mr. Gensburg and the investigators have no reason to lie - please put one forward if you have one), who has the motive, means, and opportunity to tap the line?
But hey, it's no problem - eventually we'll find out, right?
Remember: this conversation is just between you and me ... and the NSA.
Yeah I mean what are the chances that he had a PBX style phone system in his office, and what are the chances that on the phones there he might have had his home phone number programmed into them? It's much more likely that there was a glitch in the phone system on his end.
Means motive and opportunity... OK I'll bite:
Means, not the govwernment because the government wouldn't using a physical line splice, they'd go to the phone company who'd forward the call in its digital form to them.
Motive, he's a lawyer for a terror suspect, just the lawyer part likely means its a long list, and even longer when he is representing someone who is believed to have tried killing innocent civilians (so what, every family member of anyone killed when the twin towers collapsed?). Hell even his own clients "friends" might be tapping him to see if its some sort of trick to get him to reveal their plans (assuming he is guilty)
Opportunity, a physical splice can be made with simple tools and anyone with an hour to blow looking on the internet. Anyone posing as a phone company employee would have likely had access to the box both at his house and likely would have gotten admitance to his office phone system.
As for faulty phone system equipment, I've had personal experience with it. I used to work for a retailer of electronic goods, and we kept getting a lot of phone calls tying up our lines, we complained to the phone company, they told us to punch in a * number immediately after the calls and their system would track the number, and contact the people. About a week later we get a return in our store, thet customer was returning a fax machine because for some inexplicable reason it kept dialing some number and the people had complained to the phone company (you can see where this is going right?). it turns out that the offending phone caller had been a piece of hardware we had sold (not sure where it was dialing our number, but I'd guess they had the customer use that as a test number). now I guess maybe I could assume that the government was tapping the fax line wanting to see what sort of illicit faxes these people were doing and checking on our nationwide company as terror suspects, or I could assume something went wonky in the fax machine, paranoia aside, the goofy fax machine is the much more likely answer.
"Also, I have four legs and am covered in wool. Baa!" *Legion* reveals his inner furry.
Ah. Now we see the benefits of "privatizing the military". There is simply no profit in giving grunts the latest and greatest. The market mechanism works wonders for creating efficiencies. Sadly, it is more economical (at least for the private contractors) to let folks get their limbs blown off than it is to increase capital costs for providing services.
Look on the bright side though. At least they are increasing shareholder value.
There is only an up or down--up to a man's age-old dream, the ultimate in individual freedom consistent with law and order--or down to the ant heap totalitarianism,... those who would trade our freedom for security have embarked on this downward course.
America, f*ck Yeah!
And remember, the Japanese aren't commercially whaling. They're conducting "research". Like "researching how delicious this whale is". - Paleocon
U-S-A!! U-S-A!! U-S-A!!!
There is only an up or down--up to a man's age-old dream, the ultimate in individual freedom consistent with law and order--or down to the ant heap totalitarianism,... those who would trade our freedom for security have embarked on this downward course.