WoW Raid Tanking: How two tanking helmets can both be upgrades
I know some people understand tanking pretty well, but I don't think it's ever been defined how tanking stands out from the norm for gear and itemization, so I'm hoping I can clarify that here.
Krindle has 10 sets of tanking gear, yes 10, all listed below:
Standard set - Moderately high amounts of Stamina, Avoidance, Spell Damage and Block Value while remaining uncrittable and uncrushable
AoE set - High Block rating & value, High Spell damage, uncrittable
Stamina set - High stamina, uncrittable, uncrushable
Avoidance set - High dodge, parry and miss, uncrittable, uncrushable
Threat set - Very high spell damage, uncrittable, uncrushable
Fire Resistance set - 300+ Fire Resist (375cap), uncrittable
Arcane Resistance set - 300+ Arcane Resist (375cap), uncrittable
Shadow Resistance set - 300+ Shadow Resist (375cap), uncrittable
Frost Resistance set - 300+ Frost Resist (375cap), uncrittable
Nature Resistance set - 300+ Nature Resist (375cap), uncrittable
Each one of these sets is needed at some point in raiding, and all need to be pretty top notch. This also doesn't include hybrid sets, like Fire/Shadow resist set (BT) or Nature/Frost (SSC). This also does not include the healing, ret or spell damage sets when not tanking...
For instance, Gruul is a slow, hard hitting boss, and a tank will want to use thier stamina or avoidance set. Meanwhile, Curator is a dps race, and a Threat set is more appropriate. Illhoof requires the use of an AoE set, though twisted to include uncrushable.
At higher levels, the variances in the gear selection changes dramatically. A tank is likely to have a completely different set of gear on the AoE trash in MH opposed to fighting Archimonde. Therefore, gear needs to be acquired several times.
A good example of gear selection is Battleworn Tuskguard versus Justicar (T4) Faceguard
The Battleworn provides high stamina, defense, dodge and block value. Therefore a likely upgrade for the Stamina, Avoidance and Standard sets. Meanwhile, the Justicar provides defense, dodge and spell damage, meaning it's a better choice for Threat and AoE sets. Add in the different gem bonuses and enchants, and these two items become completely different (likely gem for stam and defense in the Battleworn, and spell hit/damage in the T4), but equally important to have.
The purpose of this thread is to raise awareness on the gear requirements for high level tanking (generally starting at the 25mans). Typically tanks will decide ahead of time who should be getting an item so that no one is left in the dust, while another is completely geared in all regard, but it does mean that stuff like Tier gear is still a type of upgrade, even if the tank has a non-Tier that appears better.
Sorry for the "TL,DR" factor 
Copingsaw wrote:
Honestly, I think if we could get Krindle to tank Al Qaeda, this world would be a much safer place.
Super K - The "Anti-Wipe"
I think all classes can actually benefit from some varied configurations of their gear sets depending on the fight. I've actually kept older healing gear that provides other benefits that might be more suitable in one situation versus another. Most fights, I just need the most +healing and +spellcrit I can get, to keep the Flash of Light spam and as-needed Holy Light going. For endurance fights, mp5 and spellcrit (for a paladin, spellcrit is another form of mana regen after all
) are more important, and I can sacrifice some higher healing pieces for higher regeneration pieces. Less often, I may need to boost my HP for a fight (ex: Shade of Aran) to make sure I have met a certain minimum threshold.
And if all of this is reason enough for me to keep 2-3 armor configurations for healing, and if DPS'ers could probably use roughly the same for similar reasons, I can only imagine that just like you've got posted here, Krin, tanks really need a solid variety of full tanking sets to really maximize their effectiveness for various encounters. Especially keeping a full set built upon each resistance type.
Yup, I was definitely carrying around gear for four different configurations for a while:
High mp5 set -- For long fights and farming.
Stamina set -- For random aggro fights like Aran.
Balanced hit/crit/ap set -- For fights against less than level 72 creatures.
High hit set -- For level 72 and above mobs.
At the moment, though, recent gear upgrades have made it so that the last three are all one and the same. I still carry a couple of alternative pieces that can push up my mp5, but they really are huge downgrades, so I only use them for farming at the moment. Since I currently am using a dual wield configuration on my stat sticks, just doubling up on mana oil is much more efficient (even if it is a bit costly) than taking the hit to other stats that the mp5 set brings on.
XBL/PSN: zeroKFE | BHA: zeroKFE | Halo Stats
Most classes will find that you will eventually have enough itemization to cover everything you need, and maybe things like rings and trinkets to differ in mp5, higher attack power or healing, things of that nature.
For tanking though, You will never have that occur and that's the sole mechanics of the game.
For instance, if I'm doing AoE tanking, I need a high amount of threat build up, and I need to be able to take a little damage from each hit (as little as possible without it being 0). So I need a max block rating and high block value, and spell damage with low avoidance. However, on a boss fight, the hits are usually large and I need alot of avoidance in comparison. The thing is that block is the first mitigation stat pushed off the table, so when I have more avoidance, it's worse for AoE tanking (less threat built up). While itemization through progression does help things such as spell damage and stamina, there is a balancing act to dodge, parry, miss and block where too much can be a bad thing (ever hear rage/mana starvation?).
This is directly tied to the issue of outgearing content. In a normal 5man, I'd have to run partially naked to keep threat. In heroics and now most of Kara, I have to switch in some spell damage gear or mail pieces so I can take enough damage to keep threat.
A hunter or healer in T6 won't have issues of having too much damage or healing, mp5, etc (current issues of hunter OOM aside), but a tank can have too much avoidance, not enough, too little threat, health, etc. And itemization works indirectly at a point, in 25mans, we're now at that point.
Last night in ZA, I switched out 8 pieces of gear from my tanking set to keep the birds on me and off the dps. That's from these "upgrades" where I can afford more of block rating, value, and spell damage, and dropping my stamina and avoidance.
Now, most of the time, you'll see a piece of gear drop that would be better for hit rating, or mp5, etc. Multiply that by 5 sets of gear, and make each one needed to hit a new level of content...
See what I'm getting at?
Copingsaw wrote:
Super K - The "Anti-Wipe"
I'm glad I'm not a tank. That's more than I want to keep track of.
Actually, I'd enjoy tanking up to level 70 5-man content, but probably at the point of heroics and raids it'd get too micromanaging to be fun for me on the gear side.
I love the challenge that high-level healing provides, staying on my toes for movement, threat (less of a challenge than I expected that part to be), healing rate, mana efficiency, cooldown usage, and cleansing. I learn the encounters because even if I may not be doing the tanking or dpsing, I need to understand the roles and activities that the tanks & dpsers are using, because that affects my positioning and healing prioritization list. One dpser is not necessarily as critical as another depending on the encounter and tactics we're using. Knowing who is expendable (relatively speaking) if I'm forced to choose who to save and who to allow to die is the difference between success remaining a possibility, or the group/raid facing a guaranteed wipe (this is much more relevant in 10/25 person raids rather than 5-man groups).
I've learned Karazhan well enough that odds are good I'll move into leading some runs of that this summer if needed. It could be fun.
I know Alaysha's eager to get started into the Kara path as well, and she's really close (if not already there) stat-wise. Just needs some tanking practice.
I'm a prot warrior, and the main tank in a guild that's up to Shade in Kara.
I basically have two sets of gear - my tanking gear, and my DPS gear.
If I had to carry around 10 sets of gear, I'd lose my mind.
http://www.sportsdigs.com/
I think that the 5 sets can be compressed into 3:
AOE tanking, Avoidance, and a standard set that's a mixture of the two.
High stam generally comes with all three of those sets, so a stam set is redundant. Additionally, a high-stam set can probably be found with one of the three above anyway. Unless your DPS outgears you by 2 or 3 tiers(or you're lagging), threat is generally the last thing that's an issue for a competent pally tank. They're the absolute best at making mobs angry at them.
As for the resist sets, it's really not worth investing in any of them until you're near bosses that need the sets. So getting a NR or FrR set for Hydross is probably a good idea, but SR and FR are not nearly as worthwhile, because you only need token amounts until Mother Shazraz. And the tanks need 0 SR for Mother-they really can't afford to sacrifice any other stats for SR that fight.
"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." - Douglas Adams
It'll probably be a gradual thing you build after Kara. Alot of the gear you'll get in Kara will prepare you for Gruul and Mag, but then things start to change. You likely won't have to worry about AoE if you use a pally tank, so you'll likely start building an avoidance set though with the use of Moroes' Lucky Pocketwatch, the SSO dodge badge ring, etc., then another set that maxes out your stamina to full (Commendation of Kael'thas, Netherwing or Eng trinket, etc). Otherwise it'll get really expensive regemming and re-enchanting gear for each boss fight. Then in SSC/TK, you'll find you need Resistance gear sets for Fire, Frost, and Nature damage, and finally shadow resist in BT. Since pallies have the expectation to tank both single target and AoE, it's far more gear that's required as the number and type of mobs you take on tends to change. The other option is to cause more strain on the warriors and druids by having them take multiple targets, and with that run the risk of having a dps or healer pull one off.
I honestly believe that Prot pallies have the most gear to collect in TBC if they want to see it all, including 2 healing sets, a ret set and a spell damage dps set (so 14 in total for me).
Copingsaw wrote:
Super K - The "Anti-Wipe"
The gear aspect is one of the reasons I found playing Sunseeker a bit frustrating. I'd still play him more if I had time and people wanted me as a tank, but in comparison to the healing gear, it was more of a grind than I enjoyed.
Aesildur has 3 sets of healing gear (+ a shadow set), the two subsets of which are not full, all-slots sets. My main, everyday healing set (which runs around +2137 base heal and 327 base mp5), my stamina set (which gives a boost to health by 2kish), and my true MP5 set. I have a couple of resistance pieces (Violet Badge comes to mind), and for some battles, I mix and match all three to some effect.
Generally, though, of late, I am trying to prime out my main set to handle most situations. Raid buffed, I want to have +2400 heal and +550 MP5 in combat. It seems to allow me to do the healing I need to do with less stress over mana pool issues.
That said, even at those numbers, trying to single heal Prince (which I have done) or some ZA bosses have still had me popping mana pots on occasion. Running with other healers and/or a shadow priest certainly is highly preferred!
World of Warcraft: Blackhand Server
* Sunseeker - Prot Paly (70) / * Aesildur - Holy Priest (70)
Steam Community: ShadeRaven
The reason I include a Stamina and Threat set in my list is mainly because of Mount Hyjal and Zul'Aman.
Nalorakk in particular is a primary example of a stamina set if you are taking the bleeds, since a minimum amount of health is needed to absorb them during silences. The threat set is for Jan'Alai currently, since you need to build threat extremely quickly on the hawks. The main different is that in a threat set, you're not as worried about avoidance as you want them to hit you, like in the trash in MH. That builds threat the quickest and the stronger hold you have, the faster the dps can beat them down.
I'll admit there's definitely overlap between all three sets, but the differences are staggering. A threat set for me has about 800+ spell damage, where an AoE tanking set is around 550 spell damage, and my standard set is currently around 400. My avoidance set is around 65% right now, and my standard set is typically at 45 - 50%. All the while, my AoE tanking set has a reduced Avoidance (around 35%) but much more passive block for when I need to tank 4+ mobs at a time (HS gets eaten quickly, as does Redoubt procs).
One thing I see happening, is that I currently have the Hard Khorium Goggles, and it is truly the best tanking helmet in the game. However, this does not mean that T4 or the Battleworn in my example are not upgrades. Battleworn is a better helmet for taking multiple hard hitting mobs like those I hear in Vashj (havent' seen for myself) and T4/T5 sets are better for building the quick threat needed in MH. I can see people getting upset thinking that it's loot-mongery, but really it's still progression upgrading
Copingsaw wrote:
Super K - The "Anti-Wipe"
Hyjal is an AOE fest. The average trash wave there has a pally tank handling 5-6 mobs on average, with the other tanks and CC handling the rest. Avoidance is pretty key here, because while most of the mobs don't hit too hard(except for the necros... ugh), you're handling a lot of them. Also, since it takes about 5-6 seconds, on average, for the tanks and CC to get their stuff fully up, you'll have a fairly large lead on most AOE that's put out. Except for trigger-happy warlocks doing a seed-tab-seed rotation. But there's nothing on the planet that will stop them from not taking aggro.
Also, for a group with the right composition and gear, there's plenty of time for each trash pull-most of the time issues we had were with incorrect CC or bad tank positioning more than a lack of DPS, that we had absolutely no idea that gargoyles spawned THAT far from the raid...
For Phase 2 Vashj, the tanks should not be tanking more than one Myrmidion at a time. A first kill group will generally have one, maybe 2 up at once(with 1 just spawned, and the other at 5-10%). Also, if you're a secondary MT for her, you're going to want as much mitigation as possible-she hits like a truck.
"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." - Douglas Adams
1, maybe 2 on Vashj? Bah! Gimme three, and a single target healer...maybe a couple HoTs, call it a day
They only hit for 5k...but yeah, I can see where avoidance would be better for them.
MH, I hear I should be planning to tank almost everything, and let warrior/druid's handle singles.
I'm guessing for Vashj herself, you're talking about the Shock Burst, since melee is only ~3k.
Copingsaw wrote:
Super K - The "Anti-Wipe"
Druids don't have as many options, so I have three gear combos I typically use, plus my healing set.
"Tanking" is primarily stacked agility, with enough resilience for uncrittability, and all the stamina and AC I can squeeze in. I've actually traded off some agility for expertise and hit, because my dodge is getting so high that rage generation can be spotty early in a fight. If my initial Mangle misses, it can sometimes be a number of seconds before I have any rage to throw anything else, so trading +agi for +hit and expertise sort of attacks that problem from both directions at once.
"DPS" is focused first on +hit, getting to 142, then on agility, then on feral attack power. I'm realizing that I'm just never going to do that well on DPS; when I joined in December, I was pretty good by GWJ standards, but I've been entirely outgeared now, and I'm no longer even in the same ballpark as the serious guild DPSers. I'm about as good as I'll ever be, and do maybe half their damage, so taking me along in that role is already kind of silly, and will only get worse. I can see one more strong upgrade in my future: adding the dual +2 damage to rings should add about 50dps. Past that, I think I'm largely done with DPS progression.
"PVP" is kind of a hybrid of the other two, with stacked resilience and stamina. I wear this in fights where I need to both tank and dps without being able to do an OOC gear switch. I'll also wear this when DPSing with a weak tank, because it cuts down my damage a little, and lets me easily switch and grab mobs if needed.
"Healing" is pretty much what you'd expect. I have about 1580 +heal, but very low casting mana regen (85ish, I think), so while I can hold people up pretty well, I don't have much endurance. And, being feral, I have no panic buttons, so if I get surprised, people will probably die. I have nothing to give you health RIGHT NOW... everything ticks over time or takes a 3-second cast.
I'm just starting on a nature/frost set, keeping my old gear and regemming it for resists. Sadly, in SSC, you MUST have plate main tanks, as there is no leather gear for full 375 frost and nature resists. I'm gonna need to start doing some heroic runs to get some rep and resilience gear to get ready... hopefully I'll have my sets ready by the time we start SSC in a month.
I've realized that I do need the T4 shoulders, even though I'm wearing the Merciless Gladiator now... they have blue sockets, and I need them for +stam. This will also give me the 2t4 rage/energy bonus, while still being able to get the spell interrupt on the cat Maim that's in the Merciless gloves. Normally, Maim just stuns, so it doesn't interrupt stunproof mobs like Aran, or those nasty bots in heroic Mech with the Hammer of Tank Squishing. Adding the interrupt should be VERY useful for PvE.
Why on earth that ability is on PvP gloves, however, escapes me.
Groves giveth, and Gates taketh away.
The key to Vashj P2 is to make sure that the entire raid knows that the worst possible thing is for an add to be up. And that having 2 of the same add is even worse.
Her melee is quite fast, though. It shreaded our MT in a couple of seconds when he was slow on the stance dance from 'zerker to defensive(he intercepts her to avoid the random shots). With a good shaman in the tank group, the shock burst isn't a problem-grounding totem takes care of it.
You don't need the epic resist pieces to tank hydross adds. All you need are level 70 random "of Frost Resistance" and "of Nature Resistance" greens. Except for Hydross himself, it's entirely possible for a druid tank to do the entire fight in greens. While you still need a pally or warrior to MT Hydross, druids work perfectly well in the OT role.
I'd ask your guild to save any of those greens that they get. They're fairly common, and it shouldn't really be a problem.
"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." - Douglas Adams
With SSC, I'm overgeared for the Hydross fight since I have all three needed gear sets (MT with 200/200, OT with 375Frost, OT with 375Nature - all without using an Aura or any buffs).
When we decide we're going to start on this, we'll want to have 1 tank focus on frost, 1 on nature, and I'll likely take the difficult role of having both for the boss himself.
I can make all the epic plate resist pieces for the fight though, so if Az, Smithy or any of the others want that gear, we just need the mats to make it (usually primals, nethers, and either khorium or hardened adamantite).
A good way I found to get the needed resistances was to take off gear and leave yourself uncrittable with as little as possible (starting with necklace & rings). You can get a JC to make the really good resistance rings & necklace which will help reach what you need.
Copingsaw wrote:
Super K - The "Anti-Wipe"
That's actually backwards-you have 1 Hydross MT with 375 Frost, 1 MT with Nature, and 2 OT's with 200/200 resist for the adds. Tank switches are simple-he wipes aggro whenever the raid transitions him. It's add control that's the hard part, generally.
Since it's best to burn down the adds as fast as possible, you really don't need full resist tanks for the adds-they don't hit too hard unmitigated(clothies can generally take 2 or 3 hits), you don't need huge resists for the adds tanks.
"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." - Douglas Adams
My bad
Basically was just saying I have all three types of sets for that fight, so assuming there are other warrior or pallies out there looking for it, I can make the tough to get gear.
I had actually gotten my full resist sets to 400 before I started doing more research and found 375 is pretty much the cap. Add in Aspect/Resist Aura, and a Flask of Chromatic Wonder, and you can hit over 450 and have your add tanks hit close to 300 for both
I also figure we'd be better off having a warrior or druid MTs though, since Pallies would pick up adds faster.
Copingsaw wrote:
Super K - The "Anti-Wipe"
I have picked up some of the Blacksmithing plans for the resist gear. I need to start working on the mats to make them. Thanks for the offer though Krindle and If I need something I can't make yet I'll check with you.
Smithysaboo - level 70 Dwarf Warrior
Alts:
Fathernelson - Level 10 Dwarf Priest
Oobas - level 36 Dwarf Hunter
Saboolock - Level 24 Gnome Warlock
Are you Aldor by chance? If so, I might bug you for some of the Flamebane gear (and save the massive amount of badges for the high quality Flame resistances). More of a personal mission for me, plus it would cut down bad space so I wouldn't need as many pieces
I'm Scryer, so I can make the Arcane resistance gear which is handy if you're running heroic mech without a warlock, or possibly for some of the TK fights...not sure on that yet, but I was pretty certain Arcane was needed in there...
Copingsaw wrote:
Super K - The "Anti-Wipe"
Kam's Aldor. I have the Flamebane Bracer pattern already, as I picked it up to level blacksmithing. Looks like that's the only one I can make at present, although my skill's not too far away from being able to do the breastplate and gloves if I can mine up enough mats to level my skill. Not exalted yet, so the helm's still a bit away. Obviously if Smithy is Aldor, he's already got the skill I believe, so that may be much faster.
BHA: Kamyndra - 70 Prot Warrior, Tyraan - 60 Enhance Shaman, Rahodius - 36 Priest
Yes I am Aldor and exalted with them, and do have all the plans (Bracers, Breastplate, gloves and helm) Full set gives +138 Fire Resist. I would be happy to make them for you or anyone else who needs them. Smithy is my profession
Saboo is my Name 
Smithysaboo - level 70 Dwarf Warrior
Alts:
Fathernelson - Level 10 Dwarf Priest
Oobas - level 36 Dwarf Hunter
Saboolock - Level 24 Gnome Warlock
Arcane isn't needed for any of the TK fights now. It was technically required for the entire raid for Solarian, but they nerfed her a while back.
Fire resistance isn't needed for TK also, because most of the damage from Al'ar is physical rather than elemental. The fire damage is generally avoidable(Fire buffets and flame quill), or not too bad if you've got a decently geared tank(the exploding adds).
"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." - Douglas Adams
So really, if I'm correct, here's where the resist gear falls in place:
Nature & Frost - Hydross
Shadow & Fire - Black Temple
Arcane - Never?
Copingsaw wrote:
Super K - The "Anti-Wipe"
Pretty much. I've heard of one Kalecgos strat has an AR tank, but I'm not sure how that works.
Plus, the resists are pretty much tank specific-you only need the 4 Hydross resist tanks, and 2 fire resist tanks for Illidan. The entire raid needs SR for Mother Shazraz, but it's easier to craft the SR gear you get from Ashtongue rep than to start collecting anything-Hearts of Darkness drop about every other pull in the T6 instances.
"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." - Douglas Adams
Cool!
I have all resists under the sun right now, mainly because it helps in heroics. AR gear I use in HMech when a warlock isn't present and helps in HSethekk, SR for Arcatraz/ManaTombs, NR for HSP, Fire just because. However, I guess this means I can get rid of some of my AR gear, and probably some of my other sets too and hopefully free up a bank bag for more actual tanking gear
Copingsaw wrote:
Super K - The "Anti-Wipe"