Nicely done, sir. I know there will be debate on some of these topics, but I _expect_ that debate to be respectful and mature. I've been talking with Reap about the plans for the guild for weeks now as he and the officers began putting their efforts forward, and I strongly support all the plans and guidelines described above.

I know WoW tends to dominate the forums, but I still do like seeing how you guys are progressing even though I haven't been with GWJ Alliance for ages. I know it's probably a major pain in the ass (and too late) but isn't it possible to segment the MMO forum into sub-forums? I'm sure AoC threads will die down a bit past launch, but what if all you see in here is "AoC: Blah Blah" threads?

I guess it makes sense because a lot of the topics have to do with scheduling and aren't of much interest to those not in the Guild, that part I do understand.

Great luck on the progress by the way!

And frankly, I've never been comfortable with posting the guild business functions here. Running the guild is an enormous operation and I'm incredibly grateful for all the hard work the leadership puts forward. I don't post nearly as much as I would like to because it would literally choke what little life remains out of the MMORPG Junction forum. This is www.gamerswithjobs.com. Not, 'What stupid crap is Shanker thinking about doing to the guild tabard today,'.com.org.gov.

Well put Reap. I'm looking forward to this summer and the progression of the guild. I just have to get my healer to 70 and I'll be set

The only thing that irks me is the Ventrilo requirement. I run Linux more often than not, and having WoW and Vent running via Wine? Not so much fun, particularly since I roll Tankee style.

I understand all the other moves, but I don't think I am willing to stay on XP to stay with the Guild, particularly if it is off the GWJ reservation.

A couple things to add in here:

First off, I don't expect that the BHA WoW discussions will leave this forum. Granted, not my call at all, but I think the theorycrafting portion, our progression, links and pics of encounters, will all continue here. The major change I see occuring is that our officer discussions, our signup threads and "LFG"s so to say will be handled offsite.

There's a vast amount of theory and knowledge in this forum that alot of people have come to rely on, such as gearing up class/specs, links to other useful sites, and patches that effect all servers, not just Blackhand Alliance. Basically it allows us to move the clutter to another area.

Meanwhile with the raiding requirements, they are just that: Requirements for raiding. I do not expect, nor do I feel it is the intention that GWJ Alliance will sever their core link by changing the name or moving everything BHA WoW related off the site. It will still be a good place for new players who come to this website to find others, adults, who want to take part in several different areas of the game, whether it be farming to raiding, offspecs to better gear. Several officers did express an interest in the leveling aspect of the game, and enjoyed playing with new people that come to the site and then the guild on a consistent basis, and we have no reason to take that away.

That said, Raiding is not a requirement to being part of the guild. It is just another aspect, and one that does require some attention. We will not enforce it, but if people want to take part in raiding, don't hinder the raid. Bring your A-game, get your flasks, gear up, and be available to help us become stronger by using Ventrilo, Omen and a boss mod. As Reap mentioned, it is a requirement straight from Blizzard's mouth. You want to see MH or BT, be prepared to put in the work and run what needs to be running. Without this stuff, you might as well try playing the game without pants equiped. While fun, and there's still the chance of success, it's not a good idea if you're trying to win, and we want to win.

Why are these mods required?

Ventrilo - The time it takes to explain the encounters and make changes to the operations of combat take too long to type. Our raid leaders need to explain this information, and it needs to be done efficiently so we don't have to rebuff three times before we get the point across. No one has the time for that.

Omen - Threat is an important part of combat. A dps pulls aggro, you're likely getting 3 or 4 people killed, and ultimately likely to kill the raid. Meanwhile, several battles require multiple tanks, so even if you aren't pulling threat, you need to make sure you are no going above the OffTanks, so they can get aggro as the combat requires. It's not just a Tanking and Dps necessity though, healers need it too. Several encounters have multiple adds that latch onto healing threat upon summon. The tanks need to know who to intervene or taunt away from if they are going to save the raid in time. A healer without it in this situation dies and you're total healing is down by up to 20%. When you are healing in the millions on a boss fight, that's HUGE.

Boss Mod - We've seen it in Gruul's, we will see it again in Mag, and I guarantee far more to come. You need to know the distance between you and other players, you need warnings when big and unique twists are coming your way. Boss mods tell you that, and without it, you're likely getting yourself and several others killed. Last I checked, living through a boss fight was part of actually winning the fight

I know this post is likely longer than the original, but one last point for the use of a DKP-like system. I'm in favor of it, and I don't object to anyone who opposes it. Assuming someone hits these points, I'll be happy to type out my rebuttle. Until then, silence is assumed as being in favor

Now then, let's go start a fight with some big ugly bad guys!

Well, I understand that you don't have to raid to be part of the Guild, but this all reminds me of what I went through with Tactical Gamer.

They split the Guild from the main boards so that the raiders could be more active in their concerns, and ended up isolating the Guild from the rest of the community.

You are doing the same thing: making changes which will isolate the Guild from the rest of GWJ as a whole to satisfy endgame raiding, not for the good of casual players, or the Guild as a whole.

For my part, I will see if I can get Vent running on my system (teamspeak runs, so does mumble, why not vent?)...if not, I will gquit and move on.

First off, nice post. Clear, reasoned and full of purpose - a natural step for even a casual raiding guild such as ours, and I for one believe that there will be plenty to do for us laggards as we continue to progress both individually and as a guild. I know the support I have received from long-term players in the past couple months has been amazing, and as a result I certainly feel good about making myself available to help anyone else along. Players new and old alike have shown that this guild is not about "me", and that the more casual players (such as myself) are welcomed. In turn, us casual players should understand and support the need and desire for the more advanced players to move onward in content.

One of the horrors of every guild I have been in, in every MMORPG I have played, is the drama that unfolds on the guild message board. So far, the moderators here at Gamerswithjobs have done an incredible job of "keeping it clean", so to speak, when it comes to BHA issue-related discussions. As best I can tell, their ability to do so stems in large part from their independence from guild operations. In fact, the GWJ forums are probably the best moderated discussion site I have seen, and as a result the forum posters tend to behave themselves.

Moving the guild to a standalone, self-moderated message board will present a new challenge to the guild leadership, and that is moderating the drama. Since the guild leaders are often the most heavily invested players, they are also quite likely to be involved, even tangentially, in any sort of drama. Even a leader who does an excellent job of moderation will be open to criticisms of favoritism and bias.

I am not suggesting that this is a bad move - just be prepared for another layer of responsibilities and raise your awareness to how your moderating acts will be perceived.

-> Lent

One of the many things I've considered. Sufficed to say, I still feel that this will be a positive change because:

This happens without me posting a damn thing. I omit a healer from a run, all of a sudden, I don't like that healer. I bring Shanker in on a 10 man, I'm using my position as GM to take a coveted DPS spot. :shrug: That's the nature of the beast.

Excellent stuff. Well planned and a positive step towards moving to (current) end-game material.

Sadly, as much as I have been waiting for this, it falls really at a bad time for me it appears. One, summer is coming, and outdoor activities become more prevalent in the evenings. Weekend runs will definitely be preferred (but again, note that hiking, fishing, running, etc., will interfere). Two, Valleja's the director of a international conference in late June that dominates her time (completely) until it's over, and she also has some overseas travel (aka: Singapore) thereafter. It might be mid-August before we can commit to a full-time raiding schedule, or even into the fall when the weather turns back to steady rain.

I must admit, as much as I think it's a great idea, it really stinks from a personal perspective. As long as I have longed for more challenging raiding, it looks like it is going to fall at a rotten time for me. Worse yet, if I can only spot in, or join in a little later down the road, I'll be gimped by the DKP aspect.

Again, don't get me wrong. I think it's a move in the right direction and applaud it. It probably won't work for me, though, unless these raids start happening early in the day or at least not in the prime hours of the barbeque, family, and outdoor season.

Shade,

Most guilds go through a summer slowdown and I would expect GWJ won't be any different. Here's the good point for you. By the time you're ready to go back at it full time all the new content will be on farm status and all the other players will have their gear. As they continue to farm it you'll get all your phat new gear VERY fast

I understand where you are coming from. But it's not like I am used to be dragged along as a moocher. Aesildur's gear isn't what it is because I wasn't at the forefront of pushing new content. I am just lamenting that a true coordinated effort at the next stages in this will come at a bad time for me. DEATH SUMMER is a little too close to DEATH OF SUMMER here.

Regardless, I certainly wish everyone else the best and believe those who available for every raid and every night should be rewarded for their dedication to the game.

Yeah, this is the only thing that really concerns me. If you guys do manage to get it worked out as you and Krindle have explained, though (ie, most discussion stays here and only "business matters" move elsewhere), I expect it won't be a problem.

Other than that, I have full confidence that you guys can take the guild where it needs to go while maintaining that warm, squishy GWJ feel that we all love so much.

The vast majority do. It's one of our few requirements, actually. We have instances where a spouse might share an account or something similar.

EDIT: In fact, I've routinely trimmed the roster of people that haven't logged in a long period or don't have a forum tag attached in their guild officer notes.

EDIT 2: Yet another instance of a routine practice I'd like to post about but can't because it will get washed away quickly. While I've never begged Ely to sticky a post (I've asked) it's never happened because the top of this forum would become mired in sticky posts about the guild which again defeats the purpose of a GWJ MMORPG forum.

Many of the active guild members have accounts here so just so they can be in the guild. The guild's business needs have transcended the site on several levels. When Krindle reached a thousand posts and Certis posted that he was unfamiliar with Krin's forum tag, I knew we'd grown far beyond our humble beginnings.

I bolded the part I very, very strongly disagree with.

I would consider myself to be someone who straddles the line between "casual" and "hardcore". I'm a hardcore mentality player with a life that keeps me casual in availability. I'm more than happy to commit the effort that raiding requires, and I hope that my conduct and attitude in our raiding efforts supports that claim when I make it. However, I simply haven't had the time to commit.

I've been to most of our Gruul's runs, and been happy to keep slamming my head against Big Ugly's backside alongside everyone else, without complaining. Every loss brought us closer to victory, so why complain? I come prepared: I usually buy my stuff off the AH (potions, flasks, etc) because I can't make most of it or often can't make it to the event in Ba'shir's Landing, I read up on encounters, I keep my mods up-to-date (and have been using the mods long before they were technically required, because it was explained to me how helpful they are for the raid), and so on. I've raided what I could, but time has been my enemy since last August. Fortunately, I will have a lot more time availability/flexibility over the summer, so I will be able to pick up my pace a good bit after next week finishes out.

I just wanted to note that, especially in a guild associated with Gamers With Jobs, there's often a distinction between a willingness to invest the time, and the actual availability of said time lining up with a raiding schedule. That's always been my concern with a DKP-ish system, and I will admit I have serious concerns about it, but the statements Krindle and Reap have made about it lead me to believe they understand this, and the system is being designed to take into account ways that people help support the guild's raiding efforts even when they don't have the right schedule to make it to as many of the actual raids themselves as others.

I do have concerns about how this push is going to affect the guild as a whole (the forum change actually being my biggest concern, but a lot of the comments since I posted last night have been allaying that concern), but if this is something that might be able to keep our healthy mixture of casual and hardcore players together in a healthy community, then I'm willing to give it a shot.

Me, I'll be whoring myself out for heroics (even with *shudder* PUG's) over the next few weeks to try to gear up a bit more in preparation for Death Summer '08, and hopefully we can also get Alaysha geared up for a tanking role like she wants to be, so that she can join in too. I'm concerned that with her lack of gear and experience, she's going to get left out a lot, hopefully that won't happen. She may just need to respec to a more needed role that she can jump into more easily so she can keep participating.