Self preservation and honour in death
Well I've been kind of watching this forum from affar and really enjoy reading through the heated discussions. My girlfriend and I got into a argument/debate/discussion stemming from an excerpt from Johnny Got His Gun by Dalton Trumbo.
"There's nothing noble about dying. Not even if you die for honor. Not even if you die the greatest hero the world ever saw. Not even if you're so great your name will never be forgotten and who's that great? The most important thing is your life little guys. You're worth nothing dead except for speeches. Don't let them kid you any more. Pay no attention when they tap you on the shoulder and say come along we've got to fight for liberty or whatever their word is there's always a word.
Just say mister I'm sorry I got no time to die I'm too busy and then turn and run like hell. If they say coward why don't pay any attention because it's your job to live not to die. If they talk about dying for principles that are bigger than life you say mister you're a liar. Nothing is bigger than life. There's nothing noble in death. What's noble about lying in the ground and rotting? What's noble about never seeing the sunshine again? What's noble about having your legs and arms blown off? What's noble about being an idiot? What's noble about being blind and deaf and dumb? What's noble about being dead? Because when you're dead mister it's all over. It's the end. You're less than a dog less than a rat less than a bee or an ant less than a white maggot crawling around on a dungheap. You're dead mister and you died for nothing.
You're dead mister.
Dead."
I just want a discussion on everyone's opinion about this. Interpretation, personal views, etc.

Pastor Martin Niemöller put it best;
By all means there are plenty of reasons not to die and here I would point you towards the famous play The Plough and the Star(1926) by Sean O'Casey which questions the death wish in Irish independence movements.
However when I first read your post I thought of Robert Emmet and his famous speech from the dock. Abraham Lincoln and General E. Lee memorised it and Emmet remains to this day one of the most romantic figures in World history. I'll include the speech and implore any to read it as it still has a degree of relevance today.
Emmet was convicted with treason which carries a death sentence. What follows are his last words.
He was hanged and left hanging for 30 minutes. Then he was decapitated and buried in an unmarked grave. His body or final resting place has never been found to this day.
It would be very hard to argue that Emmet died for nothing and his death was futile.
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While I do believe in a noble death, I think it's a lot easier to die for a cause than live for it.
NOTE: This is not a doodle bug.
Spore
I know where you are coming from, Lobster, but you are coming from the very advantageous position of living in a country with a strong rule of a law and a military to protect you from external threats. Lets say you have neither of these and even have the law and military against you, if you do step out of line you are facing certain death. While it isn't preferable sometimes you have no other option but to follow that path.
I would never say its easier to live or die for a cause either. Would you say to Steve Biko that he choose the easy way out? There are many examples of people laying down their life for a cause that doesn't involve either being fool-hardy or strapping explosives to your chest. You just can't avoid getting killed for a cause sometimes, even the most just.
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This reminds me of a quote from the movie Hero
"The ultimate goal of a warrior is to lay down his sword."
I think we have a lot of zealots perverting this mindset: fight for a cause so that you can live. And if you die fighting for the cause it is so that other can live without oppression.
Now we have fighters seeking death to strengthen their right to be oppressed.
Being fangoriously devoured by a gelatinous monster.
Seconded. There are certainly things I consider worth dying for, but I'd much prefer to continue to live and fight for them.
Duoae wrote:
merphle wrote:
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It is indeed preferable but as I said above some people do not have the luxury of choosing a fair fight or one they can even win.
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That's why I said I'd prefer it, and not that not being able to do so reflected poorly on your strength, will, and/or determination. We are on the same page with this.
Duoae wrote:
merphle wrote:
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I see where you're coming from, Axon, but I was referring particularly to willing martyrs. For instance, insurgents and/or terrorists who go blow themselves up instead of actually fighting. Though I can't say I'm sad they choose cowardly tactics...
NOTE: This is not a doodle bug.
Spore
It's really easy for modern Americans to espouse the principle of liberty or death, largely because it is extremely unlikely we will ever really need to make that choice on anything resembling a real life scenario. Hell, we can't even be counted on to forego inconvenience for liberty. We are, by in large, a nation of hypocritical, chest beating, limpwristed cowards.
When I consider the lengths to which nationalists like the Vietnamese were willing to go to get us out of their countries, I've got to give them their proper respect.
That said, as much as we romanticize the uncomprimising martyr, reality demands greater subtlety. The Middle East is full of tremendously (even foolishly) brave and uncomprimising men. Those folks aren't the ones who will build a society capable of feeding and clothing their children. Often (and more often than we, as the priviledged care to admit), survival demands submitting to humiliating conditions, occupation, and subjugation.
We love to say that we would prefer death to subjugation. Those are brave words coming from the one's holding the whip.
This is the internet! In our natural environment, atheists run in packs and have dictionaries! --- JoeBeDurndurn
I'm not a coward, I've just never been tested.
I like to think that if I was, I would pass.
Duoae wrote:
merphle wrote:
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I have to agree with you completely on this.
I see fighting for a cause is a matter of responsibility. If it is something you feel strongly about, you should fight for it in some way and should you die in the process, that death is still honorable regardless of whether or not you were on the winning side.
What about those who fight and become disfigured, scarred, or disabled (when you apply this to war)? Is there anything noble about that? Or witnessing atrocities and tragedies and not acting on it despite having the power to stop it, are you responsible in some way?
I don't know, maybe it's my upbringing and being the oldest in my familial generation, where I feel as though I need to pave the way for the youngin's and am responsible for being negligent.
Yes, just because all gave some, and some gave all, it doesn't make those that didn't die for their cause less noble or deserving of appreciation than those that did die. It's the giving part that counts for me, not how much you gave.
I'd say it depends on the circumstances. Just because you can, doesn't always mean you should. And just because you have the power to stop something, it doesn't necessarily mean you had the right or opportunity to stop it, or even knew how. For me, determining who's responsible or who could have prevented the tragedy is less important than healing the harm done.
Duoae wrote:
merphle wrote:
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Heh, Mighty Mighty Bosstones FTW.
On topic: I agree that while living for a cause is much, much better than dying for one, sometimes there is no choice. Would I be willing to lay down my life for something I believe in? I don't know. I'd like to think that I would. Hopefully none of us will ever have to face that situation.
If you can't be a good example, at least be a horrible warning.
Then why don't you test yourself? Join the Army maybe? Or the Peace Corps?
Let me ask you this... When someone does die fighting for something, or is maimed, or otherwise sacrifices, do we respect them because of their sacrifice? Or do we do it out of politeness? If their death does not accomplish their goal, or even directly contribute to the realization of their goal, do we say they died for a cause because we find it personally offensive to admit they died in vain? There are soldiers in every war who are maimed or killed before they have a chance to do a single damn thing to help the effort, other than show up. We call them heroes and honor their sacrifice, but can we honestly say they have helped their cause?
When we look back at the heroes who have sacrificed their lives for an idea, we only remember those who were protecting something that was later seen through by those who DIDN'T die for it. The rest died for a cause that wasn't adopted; they were just crazy, wrong-minded martyrs.
NOTE: This is not a doodle bug.
Spore
Helping their cause isn't what makes them heroes or honorable, it's their trying to help their cause that does.
I'm not sure what you're saying here.
Edited for spelling.
Duoae wrote:
merphle wrote:
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The movie Hero pretty well illustrates the mindset of constructive submission. The hero realizes that he has the ability to assassinate one of China's most repressive despots and choses not to because of the effect it would have on the country (choosing instead to die).
Chin Hsir Huang (the despot) killed millions, destroyed entire civilizations, and ruled with such cruelty that he is still regarded today as one of China's cruelest leaders. But he also unified China during a brutal period of warring states. The resultant stability eventually created the Chinese nation state.
Given that the average dirt farmer to the Confucian official were pretty much ALL better off after the unification of China, submission (even to a cruel despot) seems to have been the historically right thing to do.
This is the internet! In our natural environment, atheists run in packs and have dictionaries! --- JoeBeDurndurn
I think the original quote, on it's own, doesn't take context into consideration and that there are legitimate reasons to put one's life on the line in defense of something, to stop aggression or to save a life. Where it is written from a self-centered view, it attempts to devalue those who are often self-less in motivation.
I think it is a misguided quote, with a valid message at its foundation that there is no point to throwing your life away because when you are dead, you're dead. But then again, rarely do people even in highly dangerous roles go to work in the morning planning to throw their life away. It is just a risk they are willing to take in defense of something.
The quote carries even more weight during an unpopular war. i think it is valuable in giving pause to young potential recruits who are blinded by propaganda or drunk with thoughts of misguided youthful honor or bravado. Where the quote echoes of a truth, I find it hollow because in getting its message across, it seems to take away from those who have done truly heroic acts and paid the greatest price.
Where this quote might initially bring thoughts of the military, what of the firefighters and police who also put their lives on the line on a daily basis to save others. Is that all meaningless too? It ignores that ultimately there are heroes out there who are willing to step out of a safe cocoon and face danger for those they love or their community.
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I will note that, but I didn't realize they were song lyrics when I first responded to them.
I'm saying that the insurgents and terrorists in Iraq believe in their cause enough to die for it. If you're saying that what makes a hero is their dedication, then we should honor them as heroes, shouldn't we? I'm saying we don't because we believe they're wrong. If they were to win the war against the US (which is impossible), they would get to write the history and call these suicide bombers "heroes" and "martyrs." Even if the US doesn't win (which is... likely), we'll still get to write the history and we'll call them zealots and murderers. You can see this effect in action in our own history. The US was founded by insurgents. The Boston Tea Party was an act of terror. Yet we consider those who gave their lives fighting the British to be patriots and these days no one dares challenge the US on the grounds that it's an illegitimate state.
I have trouble calling someone, anyone, who dies needlessly and uselessly a hero no matter what was going through their head at the time. It just seems like a waste to me. But then, I'm the kind of guy who is a little disgusted when people call athletes their "heroes" simply because they're good at a game.
I always felt that there was a little more to it than that. I felt that the hero felt it necessary to show Huang his own mortality and show him mercy at the same time, thereby teaching the emperor enough humility to make him a better ruler. If it was simply a matter of not wanting to destabilize the country he could've just not gone.
NOTE: This is not a doodle bug.
Spore
No, it wasn't, it was a calculated economic message to the King. It was not intended to terrorize; indeed, the "Indians" first attended a community meeting protesting the ships, and behaved "peaceably". They then went to the one ship that was carrying their tea, commandeered it with no injuries, and destroyed only the tea chests, no other cargo or belongings. Well, except for one padlock broken checking the contents of what turned out to be a private chest, which was replaced soon after by the "Indians". The tea itself was tracked and citizens prevented from taking so much as a pocketful found on the shore. The Indian costumes were intended to give plausible deniability to the merchants, who were engaging in the destruction of goods they had contracted, but no one thought "omg the Indians are coming to kill us!" It was understood as a protest.
Sorry for being pedantic.
"Sometimes I go around saying, 'Kommisar Paulson has seized the commanding heights of the economy!'" - Paul Krugman, asked if recent changes to banking are socialistic.
You should listen to more ska then.
I think that our biggest point of contention is that I'm saying I, personally respect their dedication, and you're saying that we, our society/culture does not. I agree that our society doesn't respect it, and think that it's dangerous to dismiss their willingness to die to get rid of us.
I agree with you on the athletes bit, but I think you're having trouble grasping that sometimes you can try your hardest, do everything right, and still fail. Yes, it is tragic and a bit of a waste, since it accomplished nothing, but it's worthy of respect. I'm not arguing that dying for your cause always makes you a hero though. And respecting someone's dedication != thinking they're a hero, agreeing with them, or even liking them.
Duoae wrote:
merphle wrote:
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Must say I agree with this. I'm not sure where Hero slipped into this discussion. You can respect anyone dedication and loathe them at the same time.
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It's inevitable that a discussion on whether or not there are things worth dying for would talk about heroes.
Duoae wrote:
merphle wrote:
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I think its even deeper than that. If your remember, it was learned that Broken Sword also had a chance to assassinate the emperor months prior but also chose restraint. Maybe the events motivated broken sword to write the calligraphy and it took hero to send the message home.
Being fangoriously devoured by a gelatinous monster.
I was definitely thinking this at first but I was trying to figure a way to put words to my thoughts. I normally don't like quoting passages because quotes can be taken out of context but this is what I had to work with, not the whole book.
While many people may think that nothing may ever harm them, its a false reality. There are still people who will do anything to achieve their goals, even if it involves harming others. While there are those who may harm, there are still others willing to protect and serve. If the public just happens to live with the belief that no harm may come to them, then I guess those protecting are doing their job pretty good then lol
Everyone dies. Eventually.
Fedaykin98 wrote:
wordsmythe wrote:
That is yet to be proven.
NOTE: This is not a doodle bug.
Spore
Yes, I believe in Intelligent Mortality.
Duoae wrote:
merphle wrote:
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