Self preservation and honour in death

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Well I've been kind of watching this forum from affar and really enjoy reading through the heated discussions. My girlfriend and I got into a argument/debate/discussion stemming from an excerpt from Johnny Got His Gun by Dalton Trumbo.

"There's nothing noble about dying. Not even if you die for honor. Not even if you die the greatest hero the world ever saw. Not even if you're so great your name will never be forgotten and who's that great? The most important thing is your life little guys. You're worth nothing dead except for speeches. Don't let them kid you any more. Pay no attention when they tap you on the shoulder and say come along we've got to fight for liberty or whatever their word is there's always a word.

Just say mister I'm sorry I got no time to die I'm too busy and then turn and run like hell. If they say coward why don't pay any attention because it's your job to live not to die. If they talk about dying for principles that are bigger than life you say mister you're a liar. Nothing is bigger than life. There's nothing noble in death. What's noble about lying in the ground and rotting? What's noble about never seeing the sunshine again? What's noble about having your legs and arms blown off? What's noble about being an idiot? What's noble about being blind and deaf and dumb? What's noble about being dead? Because when you're dead mister it's all over. It's the end. You're less than a dog less than a rat less than a bee or an ant less than a white maggot crawling around on a dungheap. You're dead mister and you died for nothing.

You're dead mister.

Dead."

I just want a discussion on everyone's opinion about this. Interpretation, personal views, etc.

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Pastor Martin Niemöller put it best;

Quote:
First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.

By all means there are plenty of reasons not to die and here I would point you towards the famous play The Plough and the Star(1926) by Sean O'Casey which questions the death wish in Irish independence movements.

However when I first read your post I thought of Robert Emmet and his famous speech from the dock. Abraham Lincoln and General E. Lee memorised it and Emmet remains to this day one of the most romantic figures in World history. I'll include the speech and implore any to read it as it still has a degree of relevance today.

Emmet was convicted with treason which carries a death sentence. What follows are his last words.

Quote:
Juror‘‘My lords, I have consulted with my brother jurors, and we are all of opinion that the prisoner is guilty”.

The clerk of the crown read the indictment, and stated the verdict found in the normal form. He then concluded accordingly:

Lord Norbury“What have you, therefore, now to say why judgment of death and execution shall not he awarded against you according to law?’’ Robert Emmet, immediately responded,

“What have I to say why sentence of death should not be pronounced on me, according to law? I have nothing to say which can alter your predetermination, not that it would become me to say with any view to the mitigation of that Sentence which you are here to pronounce, and by which I must abide. But I have that to say which interests me more than life, and which you have laboured, as was necessarily your office in the present circumstances of this oppressed country to destroy. I have much to say why my reputation should be rescued from the load of false accusation and calumny which has been heaped upon it. I do not imagine that, seated where you are, your minds can be so free from impurity as to receive the least impression from what I am about to utter. I have no hope that I can anchor my character in the breast of a court constituted and trammelled as this is. I only wish, and it is the utmost I expect. that your lordships may suffer it to float down your memories untainted by the foul breath of prejudice, until it finds some more hospitable harbour to shelter it from the rude storm by which it is at present buffeted.
Were I only to suffer death, after being adjudged guilty by your tribunal, I should bow in silence, meet the fate that awaits me without a murmur; but the sentence of the law which delivers my body to the executioner, will, through the ministry of the law, labour in its own vindication to consign my character to obloquy, for there must be guilt somewhere—whether in the sentence of the court, or in the catastrophes posterity must determine. A man in my situation, my lords, has not only to encounter the difficulties of fortune, and the force of power over minds which it has corrupted or subjugated, but the difficulties of established prejudice. The man dies, but his memory lives. That mine may not perish, that it may live in the respect of my countrymen, I seize upon this opportunity to vindicate myself from some of the charges alleged against me. When my spirit shall be wafted to a more friendly port—when my shade shall have joined the bands of those martyred heroes, who have shed their blood on the scaffold and in the field in defence of their country and of virtue, this is my hope—I wish that my memory and name may animate those who survive me, while I look down with complacency on the destruction of that perfidious government which upholds its domination by blasphemy of the Most High—which displays its power over man is over the beasts of the forest—which set man upon his brother, and lifts his hand, in the name of God, against the throat of his fellow who believes or doubts a little more or a little less than the government standard—a government which is steeled to barbarity by the cries of the orphans and the tears of the widows which it has made.

Lord Norbury— “The weak and wicked enthusiasts who feel as you feel are unequal to the accomplishment of their wild designs”.

I appeal to the immaculate God—I swear by the Throne of Heaven, before which I must shortly appear—by the blood of the murdered patriots who have gone before me—that my conduct has been, through all this peril, and through all my purposes, governed only by the convictions which I have uttered, and by no other view than that of the emancipation of my country from the superinhuman oppression under which she has so long and too patiently travailed; and I confidently and assuredly hope that, wild and chimerical as it may appear, there is still union and strength in Ireland to accomplish this noblest enterprise. Of this I speak with the confidence of intimate knowledge, and with the consolation that appertains to that confidence, think not, my lords, that I say this for the petty gratification of giving you a transitory uneasiness. A man who never yet raised his voice to assert a lie will not hazard his character with posterity by asserting a falsehood on a subject so important to his country, and on an occasion like this. Yes, my lords, a man who does not wish to have his epitaph written until his country is liberated will not leave a weapon in the power of envy, nor a pretence to impeach the probity which he means to preserve, even in the grave to which tyranny consigns him.

Lord Norbury — “You proceed to unwarrantable lengths, in order to exasperate or delude the unwary, and circulate opinions of the most dangerous tendency, for purposes of mischief”.

Again I say that what I have spoken was not intended for your lordship, whose situation I commiserate rather than envy—my expressions were for my countrymen. If there is a true Irishman present, let my last words cheer him in the hour of his affliction—

Lord Norbury — ”What you have hitherto said confirms and justifies the verdict of the jury”.

I have always understood it to be the duty of a judge, when a prisoner has been convicted, to pronounce the sentence of the law. I have also understood that judges sometimes think it their duty to hear with patience, and to speak with humanity; to exhort the victim of the laws, and to offer, with tender benignity, their opinions of the motives by which he was actuated in the crime of which he was adjudged guilty. That a judge has thought it his duty so to have done, I have no doubt; but where is that boasted freedom of your institutions—where is the vaunted impartiality, clemency, and mildness of your courts of justice, if an unfortunate prisoner, whom your policy, and not your justice, is about to deliver into the hands of the executioner, is not suffered to explain his motives sincerely and truly, and to vindicate the principles by which he was actuated?
My lords, it may be a part of the system of angry justice to bow a man’s mind by humiliation to the purposed ignominy of the scaffold; but worse to me than the purposed shame or the scaffold’s terrors would be the shame of such foul and unfounded imputations as have been laid against me in this court. You, my lord, are a judge; I am the supposed culprit. I am a man; you are a man also. By a revolution of power we might change places, though we could never change characters. If I stand at the bar of this court and dare not vindicate my character, what a farce is your justice? If I stand at this bar and dare not vindicate my character, how dare you calumniate it? Does the sentence of death, which your unhallowed policy inflicts upon my body, also condemn my tongue to silence and my reputation to reproach? Your executioner may abridge the period of my existence, but, while I exist, I shall not forbear to vindicate my character and motives from your aspersions; as a man to whom fame is dearer than life, I will make the last use of that life in doing justice to that reputation which is to live after me, and which is the only legacy I can leave to those I honour and love, and for whom I am proud to perish.
As men, my lord, we must appear on the great day at one common tribunal, and it will then remain for the Searcher of all hearts to show a collective universe who was engaged in the most virtuous actions or actuated by the purest motives—my country’s oppressor, or—

Lord Norbury — ”Stop, sir! Listen to the sentence of the law”.

My lord, shall a dying man be denied the legal privilege of exculpating himself in the eyes of the community from an undeserved reproach thrown upon him during his trial, by charging him with ambition, and attempting to cast away for a paltry consideration the liberties of his country? Why did your lordship insult me? Or rather, why insult justice in demanding of me why sentence of death should not be pronounced? I know, my lord, that form prescribes that you should ask the question. The form also presumes the right of answering. This, no doubt, may be dispensed with, and so might the whole ceremony of the trial, since sentence was already pronounced at the Castle before your jury were empanelled. Your lordships are but the priests of the oracle. I submit to the sacrifice; but I insist on the whole of the forms.

Lord Norbury — “You may proceed, sir”.

I am charged with being an emissary of France. An emissary of France! And for what end? It is alleged that I wish to sell the independence of my country; and for what end? Was this the object of my ambition? And is this the mode by which a tribunal of justice reconciles contradictions? No; I am no emissary.
My ambition was to hold a place among the deliverers of my country—not in power, not in profit, but in the glory of the achievement. Sell my country’s independence to France! And for what? A change of masters? No; but for my ambition. Oh, my country! Was it personal ambition that influenced me? Had it been the soul of my actions, could I not, by my education and fortune, by the rank and consideration of my family, have placed myself amongst the proudest of your oppressors? My country was my idol. To it I sacrificed every selfish, every endearing sentiment; and for it I now offer myself, O God! No, my lords; I acted a an Irishman, determined on delivering my country from the yoke of a foreign and unrelenting tyranny, and from the more galling yoke of a domestic faction, its joint partner and perpetrator in the patricide, whose reward is the ignominy of existing with an exterior of splendour and a consciousness of depravity. It was the wish of my heart to extricate my country from this doubly-riveted despotism—I wish to place her independence beyond the reach of any power on earth. I wish to exalt her to that proud station in the world which Providence had destined her to fill. Connection with France was, indeed, intended, but only so far as mutual interest would sanction or require.
Were the French to assume any authority inconsistent with the purest independence, it would be the signal for their destruction. We sought their aid— and we sought it as we had assurances we should obtain it—as auxiliaries in war, and allies in peace. Were the French to come as invaders or enemies, uninvited by the wishes of the people, I should oppose them to the utmost of my strength. Yes! My countrymen, I should advise you to meet them on the beach with a sword in one hand and a torch in the other. I would meet them with all the destructive fury of war, and I would animate my countrymen to immolate them in their boats before they had contaminated the soil of my country. If they succeeded in landing, and if forced to retire before superior discipline, I would dispute every inch of ground, raze every house, burn every blade of grass; the last spot on which the hope of freedom should desert me, there would I hold, and the last of liberty should be my grave.
What I could not do myself in my fall, I should leave as a last charge to my countrymen to accomplish; because I should feel conscious that life, any more than death, is dishonourable when a foreign nation holds my country in subjection. But it was not as an enemy that the succours of France were to land. I looked, indeed, for the assistance of France; I wished to prove to France and to the world that Irishmen deserved to be assisted—that they were indignant at slavery, and ready to assert the independence and liberty of their country; I wished to procure for my country the guarantee which Washington procured for America—to procure an aid which, by its example, would be as important as its valour; disciplined, gallant, pregnant with science and experience; that of allies who would perceive the good, and polish the rough points of our character. They would come to us as strangers, and leave us as friends, after sharing in our perils, and elevating our destiny. These were my objects; not to receive new taskmasters, but to expel old tyrants. And it was for these ends I sought aid from France; because France, even as an enemy, could not be more implacable than the enemy already in the bosom of my country.

Lord Norbury — ”You are making an avowal of dreadful treasons, and of a determined purpose to have persevered in them, which I do believe, has astonished your audience”.

I have been charged with that importance in the efforts to emancipate my country, as to be considered the keystone of the combination of Irishmen, or, as your lordship expressed it, “the life and blood of the conspiracy”. You do me honour overmuch; you have given to a subaltern all the credit of a superior. There are men engaged in this conspiracy who are not only superior to me; but even to your own conception of yourself, my lord; men before the splendour of whose genius and virtues I should bow with respectful deference, and who would think themselves disgraced by shaking your bloodstained hand—

Lord Norbury — "You have endeavoured to establish a wicked and bloody provisional government".

What, my lord! shall you tell me, on the passage to the scaffold, which that tyranny, of which you are only the intermediary executioner, has erected for my murder, that I am accountable for all the blood that has been and will be shed in this struggle of the oppressed against the oppressor? Shall you tell me this, and must I be so very as slave as not to repel it?

Lord Norbury — “A different conduct would have better become one who had endeavoured to overthrow the laws and liberties of his country”.

I who fear not to approach the Omnipotent Judge to answer for the conduct of my whole life, am I to be appalled and falsified by a mere remnant of mortality here? By you, too, who if it were possible to collect all the innocent blood that you have shed in your unhallowed ministry in one great reservoir, your lordship might swim in it.

Lord Norbury —“I exhort you not to depart this life with such sentiments of rooted hostility to your country as those which you have expressed’.

Let no man dare, when I am dead, to charge me with dishonour; let no man attaint my memory by believing that I could have engaged in any cause but that of my country’s liberty and independence; or that I could have become the pliant minion of power in the oppression and misery of my countrymen. The proclamation of the Provisional Government speaks for my views; no inference can be tortured from it to countenance barbarity or debasement at home, or subjection, humiliation, or treachery from abroad. I would not have submitted to a foreign oppressor, for the same reason that I would resist the domestic tyrant. In the dignity of freedom, I would have fought upon the threshold of my country, and its enemy should only enter by passing over my lifeless corpse. And am I, who lived but for my country, who have subjected myself to the dangers of the jealous and watchful oppressor, and now to the bondage of the grave, only to give my countrymen their rights, and my country her independence—am I to be loaded with calumny and not suffered to resent it? No, God forbid!

Here Lord Norbury told Emmet that his sentiments and language disgraced his family and his education, but more particularly his father, Dr. Emmet, who was a man, if alive, that would not countenance such opinions. To which Emmet replied:—

If the spirits of the illustrious dead participate in the concerns and cares of those who were dear to them in this transitory life, O! ever dear and venerated shade of my departed father, look down with scrutiny upon the conduct of your suffering son, and see if I have, even for a moment, deviated from those principles of morality and patriotism which it was your care to instil into my youthful mind, and for which I am now about to offer up my life. My lords, you seem impatient for the sacrifice. The blood for which you thirst is not congealed by the artificial terrors which surround your victim [the soldiery filled and surrounded the Sessions House]—it circulates warmly and unruffled through the channels which God created for noble purposes, but which you are now bent to destroy, for purposes so grievous that they cry to heaven. Be yet patient! I have but a few words more to say. I am going to my cold and silent grave; my lamp of life is nearly extinguished; my race is run; the grave opens to receive me, and I sink into its bosom.
I have but one request to ask at my departure from this world; it is—THE CHARITY OF ITS SILENCE. Let no man write my epitaph; for as no man who knows my motives dare now vindicate them, let not prejudice or ignorance asperse them. Let them and me rest in obscurity and peace, and my name remain uninscribed, until other times and other men can do justice to my character. When my country takes her place among the nations of the earth, then, and not till then, let my epitaph be written. I have done.

He was hanged and left hanging for 30 minutes. Then he was decapitated and buried in an unmarked grave. His body or final resting place has never been found to this day.

It would be very hard to argue that Emmet died for nothing and his death was futile.

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While I do believe in a noble death, I think it's a lot easier to die for a cause than live for it.

NOTE: This is not a doodle bug.

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I know where you are coming from, Lobster, but you are coming from the very advantageous position of living in a country with a strong rule of a law and a military to protect you from external threats. Lets say you have neither of these and even have the law and military against you, if you do step out of line you are facing certain death. While it isn't preferable sometimes you have no other option but to follow that path.

I would never say its easier to live or die for a cause either. Would you say to Steve Biko that he choose the easy way out? There are many examples of people laying down their life for a cause that doesn't involve either being fool-hardy or strapping explosives to your chest. You just can't avoid getting killed for a cause sometimes, even the most just.

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This reminds me of a quote from the movie Hero

"The ultimate goal of a warrior is to lay down his sword."

I think we have a lot of zealots perverting this mindset: fight for a cause so that you can live. And if you die fighting for the cause it is so that other can live without oppression.

Now we have fighters seeking death to strengthen their right to be oppressed.

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LobsterMobster wrote:
While I do believe in a noble death, I think it's a lot easier to die for a cause than live for it.

Seconded. There are certainly things I consider worth dying for, but I'd much prefer to continue to live and fight for them.

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Stengah wrote:
Seconded. There are certainly things I consider worth dying for, but I'd much prefer to continue to live and fight for them.

It is indeed preferable but as I said above some people do not have the luxury of choosing a fair fight or one they can even win.

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That's why I said I'd prefer it, and not that not being able to do so reflected poorly on your strength, will, and/or determination. We are on the same page with this.

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I see where you're coming from, Axon, but I was referring particularly to willing martyrs. For instance, insurgents and/or terrorists who go blow themselves up instead of actually fighting. Though I can't say I'm sad they choose cowardly tactics...

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It's really easy for modern Americans to espouse the principle of liberty or death, largely because it is extremely unlikely we will ever really need to make that choice on anything resembling a real life scenario. Hell, we can't even be counted on to forego inconvenience for liberty. We are, by in large, a nation of hypocritical, chest beating, limpwristed cowards.

When I consider the lengths to which nationalists like the Vietnamese were willing to go to get us out of their countries, I've got to give them their proper respect.

That said, as much as we romanticize the uncomprimising martyr, reality demands greater subtlety. The Middle East is full of tremendously (even foolishly) brave and uncomprimising men. Those folks aren't the ones who will build a society capable of feeding and clothing their children. Often (and more often than we, as the priviledged care to admit), survival demands submitting to humiliating conditions, occupation, and subjugation.

We love to say that we would prefer death to subjugation. Those are brave words coming from the one's holding the whip.

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I'm not a coward, I've just never been tested.
I like to think that if I was, I would pass.

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Frankly i'm sick of all this anti-nipple-establishmentarianism

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fangblackbone wrote:
This reminds me of a quote from the movie Hero

"The ultimate goal of a warrior is to lay down his sword."

I think we have a lot of zealots perverting this mindset: fight for a cause so that you can live. And if you die fighting for the cause it is so that other can live without oppression.

Now we have fighters seeking death to strengthen their right to be oppressed.

I have to agree with you completely on this.

I see fighting for a cause is a matter of responsibility. If it is something you feel strongly about, you should fight for it in some way and should you die in the process, that death is still honorable regardless of whether or not you were on the winning side.

What about those who fight and become disfigured, scarred, or disabled (when you apply this to war)? Is there anything noble about that? Or witnessing atrocities and tragedies and not acting on it despite having the power to stop it, are you responsible in some way?

I don't know, maybe it's my upbringing and being the oldest in my familial generation, where I feel as though I need to pave the way for the youngin's and am responsible for being negligent.

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bilbodiaz wrote:
What about those who fight and become disfigured, scarred, or disabled (when you apply this to war)? Is there anything noble about that?

Yes, just because all gave some, and some gave all, it doesn't make those that didn't die for their cause less noble or deserving of appreciation than those that did die. It's the giving part that counts for me, not how much you gave.
bilbodiaz wrote:
Or witnessing atrocities and tragedies and not acting on it despite having the power to stop it, are you responsible in some way?

I'd say it depends on the circumstances. Just because you can, doesn't always mean you should. And just because you have the power to stop something, it doesn't necessarily mean you had the right or opportunity to stop it, or even knew how. For me, determining who's responsible or who could have prevented the tragedy is less important than healing the harm done.

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Stengah wrote:
I'm not a coward, I've just never been tested.
I like to think that if I was, I would pass.

Heh, Mighty Mighty Bosstones FTW.

On topic: I agree that while living for a cause is much, much better than dying for one, sometimes there is no choice. Would I be willing to lay down my life for something I believe in? I don't know. I'd like to think that I would. Hopefully none of us will ever have to face that situation.

If you can't be a good example, at least be a horrible warning.

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Stengah wrote:
I'm not a coward, I've just never been tested.
I like to think that if I was, I would pass.

Then why don't you test yourself? Join the Army maybe? Or the Peace Corps?

Stengah wrote:
Yes, just because all gave some, and some gave all, it doesn't make those that didn't die for their cause less noble or deserving of appreciation than those that did die. It's the giving part that counts for me, not how much you gave.

Let me ask you this... When someone does die fighting for something, or is maimed, or otherwise sacrifices, do we respect them because of their sacrifice? Or do we do it out of politeness? If their death does not accomplish their goal, or even directly contribute to the realization of their goal, do we say they died for a cause because we find it personally offensive to admit they died in vain? There are soldiers in every war who are maimed or killed before they have a chance to do a single damn thing to help the effort, other than show up. We call them heroes and honor their sacrifice, but can we honestly say they have helped their cause?

When we look back at the heroes who have sacrificed their lives for an idea, we only remember those who were protecting something that was later seen through by those who DIDN'T die for it. The rest died for a cause that wasn't adopted; they were just crazy, wrong-minded martyrs.

NOTE: This is not a doodle bug.

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LobsterMobster wrote:
Then why don't you test yourself? Join the Army maybe? Or the Peace Corps?
Because I don't believe strongly enough in their missions to fight and/or die for them. You'll note lyrics don't say that I want to be tested, just that I haven't been yet. Cause I'm sure it isn't good, that's the impression that I get. I would fight if I had to, but I'm not going to look for ways to die, just so I can say I fought. If I'm put into a situation where it's fight/resist or die, but putting my life in danger just so I can say I was tested is ridiculous to me.

Quote:
Let me ask you this... When someone does die fighting for something, or is maimed, or otherwise sacrifices, do we respect them because of their sacrifice? Or do we do it out of politeness?
I respect their willingness to make the sacrifice, regardless of whether or not they actually make it.
Quote:
If their death does not accomplish their goal, or even directly contribute to the realization of their goal, do we say they died for a cause because we find it personally offensive to admit they died in vain? There are soldiers in every war who are maimed or killed before they have a chance to do a single damn thing to help the effort, other than show up. We call them heroes and honor their sacrifice, but can we honestly say they have helped their cause?

Helping their cause isn't what makes them heroes or honorable, it's their trying to help their cause that does.
Quote:
When we look back at the heroes who have sacrificed their lives for an idea, we only remember those who were protecting something that was later seen through by those who DIDN'T die for it. The rest died for a cause that wasn't adopted; they were just crazy, wrong-minded martyrs.

I'm not sure what you're saying here.

Edited for spelling.

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The movie Hero pretty well illustrates the mindset of constructive submission. The hero realizes that he has the ability to assassinate one of China's most repressive despots and choses not to because of the effect it would have on the country (choosing instead to die).

Chin Hsir Huang (the despot) killed millions, destroyed entire civilizations, and ruled with such cruelty that he is still regarded today as one of China's cruelest leaders. But he also unified China during a brutal period of warring states. The resultant stability eventually created the Chinese nation state.

Given that the average dirt farmer to the Confucian official were pretty much ALL better off after the unification of China, submission (even to a cruel despot) seems to have been the historically right thing to do.

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I think the original quote, on it's own, doesn't take context into consideration and that there are legitimate reasons to put one's life on the line in defense of something, to stop aggression or to save a life. Where it is written from a self-centered view, it attempts to devalue those who are often self-less in motivation.

I think it is a misguided quote, with a valid message at its foundation that there is no point to throwing your life away because when you are dead, you're dead. But then again, rarely do people even in highly dangerous roles go to work in the morning planning to throw their life away. It is just a risk they are willing to take in defense of something.

The quote carries even more weight during an unpopular war. i think it is valuable in giving pause to young potential recruits who are blinded by propaganda or drunk with thoughts of misguided youthful honor or bravado. Where the quote echoes of a truth, I find it hollow because in getting its message across, it seems to take away from those who have done truly heroic acts and paid the greatest price.

Where this quote might initially bring thoughts of the military, what of the firefighters and police who also put their lives on the line on a daily basis to save others. Is that all meaningless too? It ignores that ultimately there are heroes out there who are willing to step out of a safe cocoon and face danger for those they love or their community.

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Stengah wrote:
You'll note lyrics don't say that I want to be tested, just that I haven't been yet.

I will note that, but I didn't realize they were song lyrics when I first responded to them.

Stengah wrote:
Me wrote:
When we look back at the heroes who have sacrificed their lives for an idea, we only remember those who were protecting something that was later seen through by those who DIDN'T die for it. The rest died for a cause that wasn't adopted; they were just crazy, wrong-minded martyrs.

I'm not sure what you're saying here.

I'm saying that the insurgents and terrorists in Iraq believe in their cause enough to die for it. If you're saying that what makes a hero is their dedication, then we should honor them as heroes, shouldn't we? I'm saying we don't because we believe they're wrong. If they were to win the war against the US (which is impossible), they would get to write the history and call these suicide bombers "heroes" and "martyrs." Even if the US doesn't win (which is... likely), we'll still get to write the history and we'll call them zealots and murderers. You can see this effect in action in our own history. The US was founded by insurgents. The Boston Tea Party was an act of terror. Yet we consider those who gave their lives fighting the British to be patriots and these days no one dares challenge the US on the grounds that it's an illegitimate state.

I have trouble calling someone, anyone, who dies needlessly and uselessly a hero no matter what was going through their head at the time. It just seems like a waste to me. But then, I'm the kind of guy who is a little disgusted when people call athletes their "heroes" simply because they're good at a game.

Paleocon wrote:
The movie Hero pretty well illustrates the mindset of constructive submission. The hero realizes that he has the ability to assassinate one of China's most repressive despots and choses not to because of the effect it would have on the country (choosing instead to die).

I always felt that there was a little more to it than that. I felt that the hero felt it necessary to show Huang his own mortality and show him mercy at the same time, thereby teaching the emperor enough humility to make him a better ruler. If it was simply a matter of not wanting to destabilize the country he could've just not gone.

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Quote:

The Boston Tea Party was an act of terror.

No, it wasn't, it was a calculated economic message to the King. It was not intended to terrorize; indeed, the "Indians" first attended a community meeting protesting the ships, and behaved "peaceably". They then went to the one ship that was carrying their tea, commandeered it with no injuries, and destroyed only the tea chests, no other cargo or belongings. Well, except for one padlock broken checking the contents of what turned out to be a private chest, which was replaced soon after by the "Indians". The tea itself was tracked and citizens prevented from taking so much as a pocketful found on the shore. The Indian costumes were intended to give plausible deniability to the merchants, who were engaging in the destruction of goods they had contracted, but no one thought "omg the Indians are coming to kill us!" It was understood as a protest.

Sorry for being pedantic.

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LobsterMobster wrote:
I will note that, but I didn't realize they were song lyrics when I first responded to them.

You should listen to more ska then.
LobsterMobster wrote:
I'm saying that the insurgents and terrorists in Iraq believe in their cause enough to die for it. If you're saying that what makes a hero is their dedication, then we should honor them as heroes, shouldn't we?
I'm not saying that we should consider them heroes either. But, to their cause, as misguided as we might think it to be, they are heroes. I do respect their dedication to their cause, even if I don't agree with it.

I think that our biggest point of contention is that I'm saying I, personally respect their dedication, and you're saying that we, our society/culture does not. I agree that our society doesn't respect it, and think that it's dangerous to dismiss their willingness to die to get rid of us.

LobsterMobster wrote:
I have trouble calling someone, anyone, who dies needlessly and uselessly a hero no matter what was going through their head at the time. It just seems like a waste to me. But then, I'm the kind of guy who is a little disgusted when people call athletes their "heroes" simply because they're good at a game.

I agree with you on the athletes bit, but I think you're having trouble grasping that sometimes you can try your hardest, do everything right, and still fail. Yes, it is tragic and a bit of a waste, since it accomplished nothing, but it's worthy of respect. I'm not arguing that dying for your cause always makes you a hero though. And respecting someone's dedication != thinking they're a hero, agreeing with them, or even liking them.

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Stengah wrote:
I agree with you on the athletes bit, but I think you're having trouble grasping that sometimes you can try your hardest, do everything right, and still fail. Yes, it is tragic and a bit of a waste, since it accomplished nothing, but it's worthy of respect. I'm not arguing that dying for your cause always makes you a hero though. And respecting someone's dedication != thinking they're a hero, agreeing with them, or even liking them.

Must say I agree with this. I'm not sure where Hero slipped into this discussion. You can respect anyone dedication and loathe them at the same time.

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Johnny Got His Gun wrote:
There's nothing noble about dying. Not even if you die for honor. Not even if you die the greatest hero the world ever saw.

It's inevitable that a discussion on whether or not there are things worth dying for would talk about heroes.

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Quote:
I always felt that there was a little more to it than that. I felt that the hero felt it necessary to show Huang his own mortality and show him mercy at the same time, thereby teaching the emperor enough humility to make him a better ruler. If it was simply a matter of not wanting to destabilize the country he could've just not gone.

I think its even deeper than that. If your remember, it was learned that Broken Sword also had a chance to assassinate the emperor months prior but also chose restraint. Maybe the events motivated broken sword to write the calligraphy and it took hero to send the message home.

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Irongut wrote:
I think the original quote, on it's own, doesn't take context into consideration and that there are legitimate reasons to put one's life on the line in defense of something, to stop aggression or to save a life. Where it is written from a self-centered view, it attempts to devalue those who are often self-less in motivation.

I think it is a misguided quote, with a valid message at its foundation that there is no point to throwing your life away because when you are dead, you're dead. But then again, rarely do people even in highly dangerous roles go to work in the morning planning to throw their life away. It is just a risk they are willing to take in defense of something.

The quote carries even more weight during an unpopular war. i think it is valuable in giving pause to young potential recruits who are blinded by propaganda or drunk with thoughts of misguided youthful honor or bravado. Where the quote echoes of a truth, I find it hollow because in getting its message across, it seems to take away from those who have done truly heroic acts and paid the greatest price.

Where this quote might initially bring thoughts of the military, what of the firefighters and police who also put their lives on the line on a daily basis to save others. Is that all meaningless too? It ignores that ultimately there are heroes out there who are willing to step out of a safe cocoon and face danger for those they love or their community.

I was definitely thinking this at first but I was trying to figure a way to put words to my thoughts. I normally don't like quoting passages because quotes can be taken out of context but this is what I had to work with, not the whole book.

While many people may think that nothing may ever harm them, its a false reality. There are still people who will do anything to achieve their goals, even if it involves harming others. While there are those who may harm, there are still others willing to protect and serve. If the public just happens to live with the belief that no harm may come to them, then I guess those protecting are doing their job pretty good then lol

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Quintin_Stone wrote:
Everyone dies. Eventually.

That is yet to be proven.

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Yes, I believe in Intelligent Mortality.

Duoae wrote:

Frankly i'm sick of all this anti-nipple-establishmentarianism

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