Recommend me a Home Theater receiver/Speaker Setup

Baron Münchhausen
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rabbit's picture
Location: The Basement

I searched, honest, but didn't find. There are way more wonky HT folks in this forum, so I have to at least kick this out there. Here are my parameters:

Inputs:

PS3 (HDMI)
PC (VGA, although I have a converter for component)
360 (Component)
Wii (Component)
Cable (No box, just the cable from the wall, I'm a Luddite)

My goals:

5.1 setup
- Very narrow center speaker, hopefully shorter than 3-4 inches. It will sit in front of the TV and if it is particularly tall it blocks the IR receiver.
- Fairly unobtrusive wall mounted rear speakers. These will probably be mounted 2 feet behind and 6-7 feet to the sides of the couch (it's a wide room. They could alternatively go directly above and behind the couch, but that would imply more annoying wiring issues. Wireless rear's are a possibility, as both potential wall locations are directly over power outlets.

I am by no means an audiophile, but do like me some music and good game sound.

My big issue is frankly where I want to do the source selection. They way I have had it to date (just stereo) I had all the inputs going into the TV, and then used the TV's audio out to the receiver, rendering the old receiver essentially an amplifier and nothing else. I did all the selection on the TV. Theoretically I'd like to do this all on the receiver, but of course, without a cable box, I can't get away with that.

I know some receivers will let me convert the component to HDMI, but I don't think this solves my PC problem - I think I'm still going ot have to route that through the TV's VGA input. Alternatively, I could get a video card with HDMI out, but to be honest, the ONLY think we use the HTPC for at the moment is watching web content, so I'm loathe to invest to heavily in it. (Unless someone can show me how to watch web content using my PS3, which so far is a bust).

I'm looking to spend probably around $1K.

So, any ideas for me? Even recommendations for online sources is a good start. I know Crutchfield and ... um ...

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"In other news, Miyamoto pissed on my head, and gave me a forecast of rain." - *Le

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Gorilla.800.lbs's picture
Location: New York, NY

Not to hijack it, but I, too, am interested in other Goojers' wireless rear channel experiences. In my living room, I only have these three option available for setting up the rear speakers:

1. run the wires under the couch in a plastic conduit. not sexy.
2. redo the hardwood floor, channel the wires underneeth, install outlet ports -- not happening anytime soon, since the floor is very good and there are no other incentives to replace it.
3. install in-ceiling speakers -- I have no idea what the sound would turn out like; but I suspect the locational perception will be messed up.
4. put the wireless setup in place.

option #4 seems to be the most viable .

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nsmike's picture
Location: Pennsylvania

Hmm, I'd say $1000 is a bit conservative if you want a setup that will be decent.

These guys have a good home theater podcast and maintain their archives pretty well. They tend to choose some higher-end equipment, but they do have episodes addressing budget home theater options.

By my estimation, my personal home theater setup, just the speakers and the receiver, cost me around $1300, and I'm not using anything terribly advanced. That doesn't include the cost of cables. My speaker setup is 5.1. All of my speakers except the subwoofer are 10+ years old at this point, too. I just bought the receiver about 9 months ago, the Onkyo TX SR705. It's perfect for my needs. It does upconversion in the receiver. Of course, like you noted, you'd be able to switch everything except your cable in the receiver. I believe it has enough component connections to handle everything you listed. It does not have a VGA connector, though. But, if your TV has HDMI, you'll only need to run one cable from the receiver to the TV, since the internal upconversion handles everything else. The receiver is HDMI 1.3a compliant, so you've got the latest version, and it does process the audio in the receiver instead of just acting as a passthrough. It also accepts just about every form of digital audio input I can think of, so you can run optical from your PC and your 360. The receiver seems to be retailing for around $600 right now, which could cut into your speaker budget if you are really trying to stay under $1000. But I can't recommend this receiver enough.

A note on cables, however: Don't use HDMI cables that are too thick, especially if there's not a lot of open space behind your receiver (like a tight fit in a cabinet). I used some thick cables from Monoprice.com the first time, and ended up ruining the HDMI-out port on the receiver. Thankfully, Amazon as a 30-day no-questions-asked return policy, otherwise I would've been out $600 and looking for someone who could fix the thing. The cable bunched up behind the receiver, and pushed the port into the receiver, bending the thin metal connectors and destroying them. Be careful with your HDMI ports. They're not particularly robust. The cables I was using were about 1/2" in diameter. I replaced all of them without hesitation once I got my replacement. Cables Unlimited cables on Amazon.com are just right for this kind of thing.

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Optimus Primate
Gorilla.800.lbs's picture
Location: New York, NY

Quote:
The cable bunched up behind the receiver, and pushed the port into the receiver, bending the thin metal connectors and destroying them.

Exact same thing happened to my cable box/DVR from Cablevision during the period when I used its HDMI output (switched back to Component eventually because of annoyng intermittent content protection warnings on TV). The port continued to work, however, so it didn't bother me much.

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kuddles's picture
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

Excuse my ignorance because I don't quite understand this and this is new to me. Both my 360 and PS3 are hooked up to my television with HDMI. If I bought a surround sound setup, would I have to still connect the reciever to both of the consoles instead of just the television output in order to get surround sound?

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nsmike's picture
Location: Pennsylvania

kuddles wrote:
Excuse my ignorance because I don't quite understand this and this is new to me. Both my 360 and PS3 are hooked up to my television with HDMI. If I bought a surround sound setup, would I have to still connect the reciever to both of the consoles instead of just the television output in order to get surround sound?

It depends on the receiver you choose. If you choose an HDMI-passthrough receiver, then yes, you will need to have the sound hooked up in some way to both the TV and the receiver. HDMI-passthrough basically means that the receiver functions as a video switch and does not process the audio from the HDMI. It passes the signal through. Now, you would be able to avoid having to hook both consoles up to the receiver if your TV has an audio output of some kind. Just hook the audio output of the television to the receiver and you're golden.

Now, if you choose a receiver that will process the HDMI audio, then you just have to hook the consoles up via HDMI to the receiver, then plug the receiver HDMI-out cable into the TV and you're done. That's the way my setup works.

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Baron Münchhausen
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rabbit's picture
Location: The Basement

That receiver does indeed look pretty spot on. Combined with thes JBLs (which are about the right form factor), I think I'd sneak in under the wire. On that receiver - can I have all the componants upconverting AND all the HDMI ports being used? Or are some of those channels either HDMI or Component (if that makes sense).

EDIT: Also, the Cnet review suggests that that receiver (or the 605 at least, which looks like it shares the same circuitry) takes 1080i componant signals and then changest them to 720P HDMI, which I can't imagine being good for my old xbox... Any experience with that?

EDIT: Which led me to here: http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?g=10420&i=158STDG9...

The sony.

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nsmike's picture
Location: Pennsylvania

rabbit wrote:
That receiver does indeed look pretty spot on. Combined with thes JBLs (which are about the right form factor), I think I'd sneak in under the wire. On that receiver - can I have all the componants upconverting AND all the HDMI ports being used? Or are some of those channels either HDMI or Component (if that makes sense).

EDIT: Also, the Cnet review suggests that that receiver (or the 605 at least, which looks like it shares the same circuitry) takes 1080i componant signals and then changest them to 720P HDMI, which I can't imagine being good for my old xbox... Any experience with that?

I'm using 2 of the 3 Component inputs on mine, and all 3 HDMI ports. Hell, with the addition of my PS3, I'm using an HDMI switch on one of the HDMI ports. So basically, if you're afraid that using one of your HDMI ports cancels out the use of one of your Component connections, the answer is no. It's all configured inside the menu system of the receiver, anyway. Each one of the input jacks is numbered, and you just go into the menu and specify for the "Game/TV" input, Component 1, 2 or 3, or HDMI 1, 2 or 3. It's all very flexible.

I don't have any experience with upconverting anything more than the Wii's component signals, however (the other component input I'm using is for my Zune dock). That ends up just being 480p. The worst that I would think could happen, however is if your display is progressive scan, you'll notice the interlaced lines from the 1080i signal. Which you should've been seeing at this point, anyway. When you say "old xbox," do you mean an original XBox, or are you just waxing sentimental about your 360? If it's a 360, I don't see how there could be any problems. The 360 will do 1080p through the receiver just fine. I have a 720p projector and I'm running the 360 on 1080p with no problems. Of course, that's straight HDMI...

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jonnypolite's picture
Location: In the Aeroplane Over the Sea

Rabbit, check out www.aperionaudio.com. Local company here, with a great return and free shipping policy. Their stuff is awesome.

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nsmike's picture
Location: Pennsylvania

jonnypolite wrote:
Rabbit, check out www.aperionaudio.com. Local company here, with a great return and free shipping policy. Their stuff is awesome.

...And dangerous. They offer a free, no-obligation 30-day in-home trial (that's a lot of hyphens...). Their speakers are not cheap, and if those 30 days get you addicted to their sound, you could be in serious danger of overshooting your budget by at least threefold

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Baron Münchhausen
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rabbit's picture
Location: The Basement

Those look sweet, but WAY out of my price range!

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"In other news, Miyamoto pissed on my head, and gave me a forecast of rain." - *Le

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nsmike's picture
Location: Pennsylvania

rabbit wrote:
Those look sweet, but WAY out of my price range!

When you get them, they're in velvet pouches.

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jonnypolite's picture
Location: In the Aeroplane Over the Sea

The 4 series is pretty close, but i guess if you want to upgrade your receiver, you're right. Sorry, looks like their prices have gone up in the last year since i checked their site.

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Office Linebacker
Donator V3.0

Audio Authority makes some nice switching hardware for both HDMI and Component video and audio. IMHO one of these switches + a sep. multichannel amp would be much more convenient than a whole receiver. Unfortunately, multichannel amplifiers cost a stupid amount of money.

I use one of their component switches to run all of my component video things into one input on the TV, and then I have 2 HDMI things also going into the TV.

I have not bothered with surround sound yet, because it's too much work to set it up.

http://www.audioauthority.com/product_list/Switcher

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nsmike's picture
Location: Pennsylvania

I used to have a multiple-switch setup. I got the receiver specifically to eliminate it. Now, instead of changing the inputs on the projector, making sure the right switches are set, and getting the receiver on the right audio input, I just pick the right input on the receiver, no guess work involved on which switch is set wrong this time when something doesn't work.

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Office Linebacker
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The great thing about the AA component switch is that it is completely automatic. You turn on a source and it switches to it.

My problem with receivers is that they cost a lot of money and they don't have enough inputs. Except for the ones that cost even more money.

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Lobo's picture
Location: Tampa, Florida

Rabbit, how committed are you to the idea of 5.1? The reason I ask is that you can get very nice stereo sound for the same price you would pay for less impressive 5.1 sound. You wouldn't have rear-channel sound, but the stereo speakers would be of significantly better quality—great for music, too—and you'll of course have the option of adding more speakers down the road.

Here's what I'd do with $1000. Klipsch makes some of the very best speakers for the money, so I'll rely on their entry-level products.

Klipsch F-2 floorstanding loudspeakers (pair): $650

Klipsch C-1 center speaker: $180

That leaves you $170 under budget—money you can put toward a receiver. With a receiver and shipping, you'd probably wind up exceeding your budget by twenty percent or so, but if you're already dropping $1k, I'd call the extra expense justified. Good speakers last a long time.

Looking ahead, the next step would probably be to add a distinct subwoofer. (Even without one, those standing speakers will sound terrific. They have their own low-range drivers.) Klipsch's woofers start at $350, but when you're building one component at a time there's no reason to stick to one brand. Those Aperions sure look nice!

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Cabbot Patch Kid
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Thin_J's picture
Location: Riding my invisible bike.

Someday I will own a set from Paradigm. Someday.

Oh, and on the receiver I've been waffling back and forth between the Onkyo SR605 and the 705 for a couple of months now and haven't been able to come to a decision. There's nothing else out there for the price though that has the same feature set. They both even support all the new HD audio formats on HD-DVD's and Blu-Ray discs, which is still pretty rare to see support for actually.

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nsmike's picture
Location: Pennsylvania

Thin_J wrote:
Someday I will own a set from Paradigm. Someday.

Ugh. I'm not impressed by a company that claims to sell "high-definition" speakers. There's got to be a point where using the wrong term for the product you sell just because it's a big buzz word hurts your credibility. I'm going to say that if they're asking that much for their speakers, that's where I draw the line.

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Cabbot Patch Kid
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Thin_J's picture
Location: Riding my invisible bike.

If you've never heard a set then you can't really judge.

They'll blow away Klipsch's that cost twice as much.

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Baron Münchhausen
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rabbit's picture
Location: The Basement

excellent thoughts on going stereo. Alas the main point of this upgrade is to step up the game and movie sound. The speakers will only play music occasionaly, and some level of video switching has to figure into it.

I would say 90% of my music listening is either on buds (I bought expensive ones) or at my desk where ihave decent 5.1 speakers (not great, but not ass.)

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Puce Moose's picture
Location: Waiting for you in heaven... with a gun.

My media room system is just used for video games and movies, so it's a pretty inexpensive collection of gear that does a good job. I've recently relocated the rear speakers to the.. rear (they were on the side), which has helped with the positional audio quite a bit. Here's my rig:

Receiver: Kenwood VR-606 100 watt 5.1 channel Pro Logic II, toslink optical $130
Fronts: JBL L1 speakers - got these speakers over a decade ago and they still sound awesome. Impressive bass, and all around great speakers. I got them for half price because one of them had a wood chip out of the side, wheee! $300
Center: HKC, Harman Kardon center channel. $150
Surrounds: HKB-4, two-way surround speakers $150/pair

Quote:

The speakers will only play music occasionaly, and some level of video switching has to figure into it.

rabbit, what kind of inputs/outputs does your TV have?

Baron Münchhausen
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rabbit's picture
Location: The Basement

The TV as enough to handle it now, it just doesn't have discrete remote codes for inputs, which sucks.

It takes two HDMI, one VGA, and three components, plus other crap I don't need. It will output optical audio, so Im assuming i can send the sound out for when I'm using it for cable, or at worst I'll just use the RCA outs.

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Malor's picture
Location: Perpetually suspended

I answered a similar question over on Ask.Metafilter a year ago, and the overall advice remains good, so I'll refer you there:

How to build a home stereo.

I tend to think of $1500 as being the perfect price/performance spot, giving you enough for a good-sized sub, a decent receiver, and solid speakers. Every piece can be highly competent; you end up with nothing that sucks, and really solid overall sound. But $1K is still quite good. You can do very well, if you shop carefully.

Remember everyone learns to hear differently, and that all speakers make tradeoffs. What you're looking for is speakers that make tradeoffs that sound good to your ears. If you're willing to take some time and do some shopping, you'll be able to find something you really like. It's just a matter of figuring out what you really like, and the only way to do that is by critical listening.

If you've spent a substantial amount of time with really good headphones on a high-quality DAC, that will shorten your speaker-buying process a lot.

I remain very pleased with a set of relatively cheap Energy Take2s I bought almost fifteen years ago. I think i spent about $500 on the 5.1 set, which I think would be close to $1K now. The sub is very weak and I don't like it, but I chose the cheapest of three options, so it's my own damn fault. The speakers themselves are dynamite little guys. The line has been updated a number of times, and I imagine they're even better now. Energy is hard to find in the US (it's Canadian), but if you can find a local dealer, do take a listen.

I hear good things about Paradigm Atoms, and Klipsch is certainly worth checking out. My particular ears have always really enjoyed the Boston Acoustics sound as well.

Onkyo makes excellent receivers that are very reasonably priced. And, as I say in the linked article, their HTIBs are also really, really good. They're, well, real stereo systems. They tend to be strangely-styled, but they sound awesome. I've listened to several in the stores and was impressed by the sound-per-dollar every time.

Baron Münchhausen
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rabbit's picture
Location: The Basement

Thanks much Malor! On doing more research, I'm now wondering about doing the video switching thing at all. Sigh. All the reviews I've seen suggest that the video processing on the sub-1000 receivers is really quite poor.

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Malor's picture
Location: Perpetually suspended

It looks like the Take series has gone through a number of metamorphoses over the years. As far as I can tell, they're up to the Take 5 now, and have diversified it into tall towers as well as the original small satellite-style speakers.

I also see, though, that they just introduced the Take Classic, late last year. There's an Audioholics review here. That's a LOT like my Take2 setup, which isn't in the front room anymore, but is still serving me faithfully as computer speakers. The price is even similar to what it was when I bought mine... $600 for a full set, including sub. Add a decent receiver, like an Onkyo 504, and I think you'll probably be pretty happy with it.

If you want a stronger sub than that, you'd have to go with separates. Hsu Research and SV Sound are two of the best subwoofer makers online. Both make excellent, excellent products.

You can buy subs online without worrying about hearing them; a sub is a simple device, and we don't hear deep bass very well anyway. You'll be happy with anything you get from either company.

To give you an idea of the difference between subs... the tiny cheap ones will maybe buzz your blinds a bit. A solid one, like Hsu's $300 32hz type, will thump the floor enough to feel in your feet, and will visibly shake the blinds. This is what most people think of when they refer to a subwoofer. Hsu's $500 jobs will buffet you, thumping you in the gut and making your walls vibrate enough to rattle pictures askew. (this is enough bass to make most people go, "holy crap!")

The $1k jobs will shake your entire house; it feels like the walls are bending. You can't even imagine what bass like that sounds like until you've gone through it at least once. This isn't the thumpy, unpleasant, bullsh*t bass you get from some of those low-rider cars. It's very different. It's like normal movie sound, except it will physically pick you up out of your chair, shake you, and drop you. Those big subs reach out and completely pressurize your entire airspace; they take total control of your house. This isn't "holy crap" bass, it's guests-looking-at-you-slightly-stunned bass.

But... that's also as much as you wanted to spend on your whole system, so store that for later reference.

Discretion is not the better part of
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Malor's picture
Location: Perpetually suspended

Oh, and as far video switching goes -- I'm not too knowledgeable about that. My gear is all component-only; I bought in before HDMI. You'll want to browse avsforum for awhile, probably.

Indecisive
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Funkenpants's picture

Lobo wrote:
Rabbit, how committed are you to the idea of 5.1? The reason I ask is that you can get very nice stereo sound for the same price you would pay for less impressive 5.1 sound.

I did that with a pair of good speakers for long time, but a few years ago the DVD audio tracks going through my receiver started sounding kind of messed up when I had the receiver set on 'stereo.' Like the background sounds or music would be too loud or too quiet, conversation not at the right level, etc.

Is that likely just the receiver I had?

Cabbot Patch Kid
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Thin_J's picture
Location: Riding my invisible bike.

Hsu Research stuff is an awesome deal. Not a lot out there that gives you the same performance for the prices they offer, although the Energy set already mentioned is a great deal too.

Hsu's subs in particular are awesome.

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locdog's picture
Location: A whale's vagina

I just upgraded my 7-year-old RCA with an Onkyo 605. The 605 is the cheapest receiver currently available that will upmix component/svideo to HDMI, has 7.1 surround with support for Dolby "TrueHD" and other quote-unquote high-def audio formats, and support for 2 Zone audio. It's got plenty of SVIDEO, component, optical, digital coax, and good ol' RCA connections, support for XM and Sirius, and a nifty self-calibration routine for your speakers. There are some issues with selecting alternate audio inputs when using HDMI (these may or may not pertain, but if you think they might, I'd suggest checking out the reviews on the 605's amazon.com product page) but for the unparalleled feature set at a $400 price (they can be had for around $380 new-in-box with a little searching) I don't see anything beating the 605.

Granted you're not getting the wattage or ginger bread featues of some higher-end receivers, but it doesn't sound like your needs are that extraordinary. The only practical limitation on sound quality is your speakers. Although I wouldn't advise you buy one there, many Bose stores retail Onkyo receivers.

As far as speakers go, I'll defer. I'm still running my old RCA 5.1 speakers--which sound better than ever, btw. A couple of general suggestions: don't get too caught up in impedance/wattage matching. If you're at or lower than the stated wattage, you're good, and for impedance, don't go lower than 6 ohms. Also, You will also have no difficulty running 5.1 speakers on a 7.1 receiver--unless you're living in a concert hall, I'd encourage you to. There aren't enough 7.1 encoded sources out there to warrant the extra scratch in my opinion, and besides, in a typical living room, five speakers generate an adequate 3 dimensional sound field. Unless you're living in an auditorium it's probably not worth the expense, and having a 7.1 capable system means that you could always add the rear surround channels at a later date if you so chose.

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Lobo's picture
Location: Tampa, Florida

Funkenpants wrote:
Lobo wrote:
Rabbit, how committed are you to the idea of 5.1? The reason I ask is that you can get very nice stereo sound for the same price you would pay for less impressive 5.1 sound.

I did that with a pair of good speakers for long time, but a few years ago the DVD audio tracks going through my receiver started sounding kind of messed up when I had the receiver set on 'stereo.' Like the background sounds or music would be too loud or too quiet, conversation not at the right level, etc.

Is that likely just the receiver I had?

I'm no expert on these matters, but my guess is that as time goes on, the magical DVD gnomes are mastering more and more DVD audio tracks with the expectation of a strong center channel for voices. Lots of receivers will give you a choice between pure stereo sound (good for music) and three-channel sound with a center speaker (good for movies). The best center speakers are designed with reproduction of human voices in mind, and lots of packaged 5.1 sets offer center speakers that fall short of that goal.

If what you mean is that the very same DVD's you used to enjoy came to exhibit problems over time, well, I'm not sure what could cause that. Magical DVD trolls, maybe.

The market has much to answer for as to why gaming is NOT an art. -- illum