Where to go for in depth computer help?

Consultant
Location: Orlando

I'm having an incredibly frustrating time with my latest PC build. I've already RMA'd 3 parts and am still having the same problems as I first had, only it took 2 weeks for them to manifest themselves the second time around, meaning it's now too late to RMA any other parts that may have been defective. The bottom line though is that I am just at a loss as to how to further diagnose the problem. I posted on 3-4 different boards a month ago or so when I first built the system and had the problems originally, and the responses were all over the place. Where do you guys go when you need real help with a tough computer build question?

Grumsh, Troll Mage on Blackhand
Kroe, Tauren Hunter on Blackhand
Khoram's Workshop

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PurEvil's picture
Location: Columbia, MD

Um... here?

What's going on?

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Malor's picture
Location: Perpetually suspended

Responses will be all over the place. That's the nature of computer troubleshooting. You make a hypothesis, test it, make another, test it, and so on. You get different responses because most failures, especially complex ones, can be caused by more than one component failing in more than one way.

It's not like anyone can tell you, "ok, if you get a blue screen when you do this, you've got a bum resistor on your motherboard." Sometimes solutions are clear-cut, but they very often aren't, especially if they're intermittent.

For extra fun, sometimes it's two or more components at once. That's always a ton of fun to fix.

Rule #1 of troubleshooting: change only one thing at a time. Change. Test. Change. Test. Never make more than one change at any given time. This single technique will save you more time than anything else I know of. Multiple changes at once only LOOKS like a shortcut.

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PurEvil's picture
Location: Columbia, MD

Malor wrote:
For extra fun, sometimes it's two or more components at once. That's always a ton of fun to fix.

Yup... I remember my first system build. I was unknowingly using a busted HDD stripped from an older system, and the PS and RAM I ordered were DOA. I was in the same situation... trying to figure out what was wrong before that 15 day RMA window closed, so I paid a local computer support store to test the components for me (thinking $35 would be worth knowing each piece I needed to send back, since I probably wouldn't find all the kinks before I ran out of time).

The best lesson I learned from that, was don't take your computer to one of those support stores. He told me the CPU/MB was DOA (after lecturing me for nearly an hour about why you shouldn't order parts off the internet), which it wasn't. And by the time I got it back (with a nice $45 bill from the company for having them test a working component), my window had passed, I ended up having to buy a few new components, and then had a nice long chat with the guy's boss.

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Reaper81's picture
Location: Duluth, MN

Quote:

Rule #1 of troubleshooting

I thought Rule #1 was, 'Is everything plugged in?'

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Stryker's picture
Location: Your computer via an undisclosed port.

Reaper81 wrote:
Quote:

Rule #1 of troubleshooting

I thought Rule #1 was, 'Is everything plugged in?'

I always thought that Rule #1 was: Remove head from a$$

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Mr Crinkle's picture

No, that's rule #1 for Tech Support, not troubleshooting.

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fangblackbone's picture
Location: bay area

I thought the number one rule for troubleshooting was reboot.

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PurEvil's picture
Location: Columbia, MD

fangblackbone wrote:
I thought the number one rule for troubleshooting was reboot.

No, that's Step #1, not Rule #1.

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LilCodger's picture
Location: Bah!!!

Besides, you never ask if it is plugged in.

The correct phrasing is, "Please remove the power cord from the back of the component, and plug it back in."

"Oh, yeah, that took care of it ... thanks."

Sure. Of course it did.

*Legion* recognizing greatness wrote:

You would have been correct. So correct as to stifle any further discussion in this thread.

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Rezzy's picture
Location: Casino Bluffs, Iowa

LilCodger wrote:
"Please remove the power cord from the back of the component, and plug it back in."

*Snip* Ouch! The scissors wouldn't go through the last little bit and I got a big shock. Now what?

Politely rude. Briskly vague. Firmly uninformative.

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pol's picture
Location: Charlottesville, VA

Rezzy wrote:
LilCodger wrote:
"Please remove the power cord from the back of the component, and plug it back in."

*Snip* Ouch! The scissors wouldn't go through the last little bit and I got a big shock. Now what?

squeeze it harder

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LilCodger's picture
Location: Bah!!!

Rezzy wrote:
LilCodger wrote:
"Please remove the power cord from the back of the component, and plug it back in."

*Snip* Ouch! The scissors wouldn't go through the last little bit and I got a big shock. Now what?

No, no, no. You have to get all the way through the cable, and you're still capable of speaking, so get back in there you wus!

*Legion* recognizing greatness wrote:

You would have been correct. So correct as to stifle any further discussion in this thread.

Consultant
Location: Orlando

OK here's the problem.

I am trying to put the following system together:

2x Crucial Ballistix 1GB 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 1066 (PC2 8500)
Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 250GB
Intel Core 2 Duo E6550 Conroe 2.33GHz
GIGABYTE GA-P35-DS3L Motherboard
GECUBE Radeon HD 3850 256MB
SPARKLE ATX-400PN-B204 400W Power Supply

with whatever my NEC IDE DVD drive is, and my 801.11g D-LINK wireless card is, in my old Antec Sonata case, with WinXP Home (first install was with my original XP disc, which is from 2001 original release, and the subsequent installs have been with that version slipstreamed with SP2).

The first time I put everything together, I found one of the RAM sticks showed errors within 5 seconds of running memtest, so I took that out and RMA'd it. I installed everything, XP, installed AVG virus, started downloading XP patches, etc, had to activate (which is itself annoying, as I'm on my 7th? 8th? complete system reinstall with this license of XP, and they always tell me I'm over my limit of installs...), etc etc. Got through with all the patches, put on a minimal set of apps, and then WoW. Enjoy everything for about a day and a half, and then things start crashing, such as the screensaver, and WoW, and WoW starts telling me that there are corrupt files. I do chkdsk and it says there are file system errors, it tries to fix on a reboot, but subsequent chkdsks still show errors. Seagate Tools finds errors and says it fixes them, but still shows errors after the "fix".

I try a reinstall again, with same results after a day or 2.

On advice from another forum, I RMA the drive and try another 250GB Seagate a friend lent me (brand new). Reinstall everything, same results after a day or 2.

Somewhere in here I try flashing the BIOS (except I have no floppy drive so I do it from within Windows using Gigabyte's utility), with same results afterwards.

I figure it must be the motherboard/disk controller, and RMA the motherboard.

2-3 weeks later I have a new replacement motherboard. Reinstall everything again, with the new mobo, disk, and memory that were all RMAd. Everything is working fine for about 7-10 days. Around day 2 or 3 out of curiosity I run chkdsk and it says something strange such as there are blocks allocated that don't match the filesystem or something. I run Seagate tools, both short and long test, and short test reveals nothing, but long test does find something, which it says it fixes, but the text scrolls by too fast to read what the details were, and the command it says to use to view the log file doesn't work. Then one day around 7-10 days after rebuild as I'm in the midst of playing WoW, it crashes and tells me files are corrupt. Now the whole box crashes randomly and I've turned it off as you can't count on using it at all.

So that's the long of it. I did change one thing at a time and replaced everything except the CPU, GPU, cd drive, and 1 stick of RAM. I've posted on 4 or 5 different forums, as well as Seagate and Gigabyte support, and I still have no clear ideas on what the problem may be. I was going to return the mobo for a refund and try a different vendor and model, but Newegg says I can't, so I guess I'm screwed.

Appreciate any advice.

Grumsh, Troll Mage on Blackhand
Kroe, Tauren Hunter on Blackhand
Khoram's Workshop

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fangblackbone's picture
Location: bay area

Your PSU maybe too small. I don't know what the power draws are for the 6550 and 3850 but if they are close to the power draw of my components, you could be cutting it too close.

I don't have much breathing room at all with my Antec 450W PSU with a e2160 and 8800GT.

Before replacing the PSU I would try and get more of a GWJer consensus.

Another telltale sign it could be the PSU is that your problems seem to occur when playing WoW. WoW may not stress the pixel pushing power of your system but 3d games tend to cause systems to run at max power drain.

When I play WoW, there is a several degree rise in air temperature coming out the back of my computer.

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Malor's picture
Location: Perpetually suspended

Yeah, I'd lean in the direction of thinking either the PSU or your remaining RAM stick.

Have you tried running the system with just the RAM that was RMAed?

Consultant
Location: Orlando

The WoW stuff may be a red herring - the first couple of times the problem occurs it is usually when not in use and the screensaver is running.

I guess I'll look into a larger power supply. I thought the one I have would be good enough based on some reviews, but, sometimes the internet is wrong (gasp!).

Just looked on Newegg, Sparkle doesn't seem to make a 500 or 550W PSU. Anyone have a recommendation in that power range for something that is quiet?

Grumsh, Troll Mage on Blackhand
Kroe, Tauren Hunter on Blackhand
Khoram's Workshop

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Sheazy's picture
Location: Portland, OR

In the bios, under P.C. Health, what are the voltage readings from the psu? I just had to replace a psu that was putting out around 14.5-15V on the 12V rail and thereby causing all kinds of problems.

Consultant
Location: Orlando

BIOS readings are:

VCore: 1.364V
DDR18V: 2.080V
+3.3V: 3.392V
+12V: 12.302V

ETA:

OK, ran some power supply calculators and they all basically agree that I need a 600-610W PSU. Yikes. I feel like an idiot for not doing this before... This is my first system build I've ever had to even worry too much about PSU beyond "get a good, reliable, non-wimpy one."

I think I'll try this one. Highest rated one on Newegg for the wattage and $90 after rebate. Unless someone else has some other sage advice

Grumsh, Troll Mage on Blackhand
Kroe, Tauren Hunter on Blackhand
Khoram's Workshop

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Sheazy's picture
Location: Portland, OR

First, let me preface this by saying I don't know much about memory and voltages, so hopefully someone else can chime in. I believe that DDR18V should be running at 1.8V +/- 5%. So, you're outside that. Also, that memory says it runs at 2.2V. Is it possible there is a compatibility issue with that RAM and motherboard? Honestly, I don't know what the implications (if any) are of this, but it may be worth looking into a bit.

As far as power supplies are concerned: one thing you could try is to go to your local best buy/circuit city/etc and grab a beefier psu from them and run it for a week or two and see if it fixes the problem. If it doesn't, then you can return it (probably much more easily than if you buy it online). And even if it does, you could technically still return it and then buy one you like better from newegg.

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fangblackbone's picture
Location: bay area

Updates?

Don't leave us hanging!

Being fangoriously devoured by a gelatinous monster.

Consultant
Location: Orlando

I just received the 700W PSU I linked before yesterday, and spent last night re-installing WinXP, patches, drivers, WoW, and downloading the latest WoW patch (900MB!). It's all installed but I haven't done anything with it yet. If it is something other than the power, then I have to wait 3-10 days to know if it's good or bad I guess. It was probably the power...

The only downside is that the 700W PSU, despite supposedly being "super-silent" according to ads and the user reviews on Newegg, is actually kind of annoying. It's not so much that it's too loud, it's just that the noise it does make is rather noticeable and different than all the other ambient electronic noise. Sigh.

Grumsh, Troll Mage on Blackhand
Kroe, Tauren Hunter on Blackhand
Khoram's Workshop

Consultant
Location: Orlando

And... it's already had its first error. Last night whilst checking on the little ones in the middle of the night, it was stuck at a pre-BIOS error message saying "Checking BIOS image" or something to that effect. I had this problem a couple times with the original build in early Feb. I rebooted, and encountered more weirdness. First, though I hit the reboot button, it seemed as though it powered down, only to leap to life a good 4-5 seconds later. All the fans and lights whirred on, then cut off a couple seconds later, then back on a couple more seconds later, etc. I killed the power to the box and went to bed, disgusted.

This morning I rebooted, everything seemed fine, Windows announced that it had recovered from a serious error. I ran chkdsk and sure enough, it is once again reporting that it has found errors in the Volume bitmap and the filesystem. This is the same exact error I have gotten every other of the 6 times I've built the system / reinstalled Windows.

I am literally ready to throw the entire thing against a brick wall and go all Office Space on it. Does anyone know what i should try next, or know of a good forum that deals in nothing but computer diagnostics? Should I just punt and try to sell the parts individually on ebay?

Grumsh, Troll Mage on Blackhand
Kroe, Tauren Hunter on Blackhand
Khoram's Workshop

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Sheazy's picture
Location: Portland, OR

Have you ruled out a compatibility issue between the motherboard and ram? Have you tried a different brand, speed, etc of ram in there? Go here click on Memory Support List for a list of compatible memory (I don't see many Crucial entries on that list). And again, I'd recommend using your local best buy or whatever to test this. Much easier to return if it doesn't fix the problem, and you could have a couple of new sticks in there today, rather than waiting on shipping and whatnot. But I'm also an impatient bastard when it comes to stuff like this

Consultant
Location: Orlando

OK i'll profess ignorance on this. Isn't the whole point behind having the RAM spec (PC2 8500) that you can use any RAM of that spec if the motherboard supports it? Also, would that kind of incompatibility explain the disk errors I'm seeing?

But thanks for your help Sheazy and others. I will check that link you mentioned.

Grumsh, Troll Mage on Blackhand
Kroe, Tauren Hunter on Blackhand
Khoram's Workshop

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Sheazy's picture
Location: Portland, OR

Khoram wrote:
OK i'll profess ignorance on this. Isn't the whole point behind having the RAM spec (PC2 8500) that you can use any RAM of that spec if the motherboard supports it? Also, would that kind of incompatibility explain the disk errors I'm seeing?

But thanks for your help Sheazy and others. I will check that link you mentioned.

Honestly, I really don't know. It just seems like you've exhausted just about every other potential source for problems. So, to me, trying different ram seemed like the next logical step. Let us know what happens.

Consultant
Location: Orlando

OK, will do. I found 2 GB of the Corsair DDR2 1066 RAM listed on Gigabyte's list of compatible RAM for $49 on Newegg after rebate, so it has been ordered.

At this point I think I could do another XP install in my sleep. The only part I'm dreading is having to call MS to activate again. They always try to tell me I've installed my licensed copy too many times. Um, look MS, I purchased a legal copy for full price soon after XP release. As long as I'm installing it on only one computer, I can install it however many times I want. Which they eventually relent and agree to, but I hate them making me feel like I'm a criminal or something and having to read that freaking 56 digit number - twice - just to be able to get all 92 patches for my OS.

Grumsh, Troll Mage on Blackhand
Kroe, Tauren Hunter on Blackhand
Khoram's Workshop

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fangblackbone's picture
Location: bay area

Wow! Sorry for all the problems you are having. I've never known anyone having as much problems as you have experienced.

The good news is, you did need a new PS whether it was the source of your problems or not.

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AnimeJ's picture
Location: The skies of Norkia

Khoram wrote:
OK, will do. I found 2 GB of the Corsair DDR2 1066 RAM listed on Gigabyte's list of compatible RAM for $49 on Newegg after rebate, so it has been ordered.

At this point I think I could do another XP install in my sleep. The only part I'm dreading is having to call MS to activate again. They always try to tell me I've installed my licensed copy too many times. Um, look MS, I purchased a legal copy for full price soon after XP release. As long as I'm installing it on only one computer, I can install it however many times I want. Which they eventually relent and agree to, but I hate them making me feel like I'm a criminal or something and having to read that freaking 56 digit number - twice - just to be able to get all 92 patches for my OS.

Just out of curiosity, why do you call em? I do the online activation deal, no fuss, no hassle to speak of. On a side note, I too just went thorough a bunch of old PC hassle, and wish you the best of luck.. it'll all get sorted eventually, right?

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Consultant
Location: Orlando

I have to call them because when I do the online activation, it tells me I'm over my limit of installs for my license. Which is just absolute BS.

Grumsh, Troll Mage on Blackhand
Kroe, Tauren Hunter on Blackhand
Khoram's Workshop