WoW: BHA: Moving Forward
As some of you may or may not know, GWJ Alliance has undergone changes tonight.
There is not enough time or space to express the service that Khush has been to the guild. That we have grown to this point is a reflection of the time and care she put into making the guild a home to us all. We are very happy that she has chosen to remain with us and have some fun playing.
After a lot of discussion, the officers have decided that we should move the guild to a council style of leadership in order to spread both the positives and negatives of guild leadership to more than a single individual.
This is not changing the guild's intent. We cannot stress that enough. We are a casual guild that raids. We have no intention of moving to become a raiding guild.
Our guiding principle will continue to be "Have fun, act like adults, play nice and be excellent to each other,"
Our basic proposal is a 5-member council that consists of the following positions:
Guild Leader
Raid Leader
Bank Manager
2 at-large positions elected by the guild from the officer pool.
The 2 at-large positions would be decided by election every three months (quarterly) and the executives will revisit the 3 titled positions every six months.
Our intent is to provide stable, transparent and fair representation of all guild members.
We are open to the comments on this action plan from our guild members. Please provide your thoughts within the next 2 weeks so that we can discuss all of them at our next Executive meeting.
Thank you,
Shanker
"If Blizzard announces a subscription fee for Diablo III we will have to build a second Internet to make room for all the complaining." - muttonchop
The position of Guild Leader was given to Kirsten (Khushmynta) from the last guild leader, in a direct line (and with direct lineage) from Certis/Elysium (the owners of the GWJ name). While I will support the new leaders of GWJ, I must remind y'all that this coup could require a name-change.
That which does not kill you, still hurts like Hell. - Anonymous Soldier
None of us is as dumb as ALL of us. - Anonymous Staff Officer
Veni, Vici, Ridebam, Discedebam - "I came, I saw, I laughed, I left"
My initial reading: This seems like a positive move to me, especially as the guild has grown. Am I missing something? Thanks for all of you who serve the Guild. It does not have to be a thankless job. Good leadership got us to this point, and good leadership will lead us on.
WOW: GWJ Alliance on Blackhand (BHA)
That hurts.
"If Blizzard announces a subscription fee for Diablo III we will have to build a second Internet to make room for all the complaining." - muttonchop
Having been a guild officer in the past I know the stress, headache and at times heartache that guild officers face. When a guild grows to the point where there are more than 10-13 people running a 10-man raid, there are a lot politics and personality conflicts that will come to the surface. As a guild GWJ has reach a point where single leadership can and will suck every ounce of fun and enjoyment from this game, not just for the Guild Leader but for everyone. Many guilds have disbanded or crashed and burned, we have all seen it happen either in guilds we were in previously or from friends. We all know "crap rolls down hill", well it also rolls uphill, and when there isn't a way to spread it out, people burn out. Take breaks or leave. Formalizing a division of labor, so to speak, rather than making one person responsible for all the bad, hopefully keeps the stress to a minimum.
This is the make or break point for GWJ. Spreading the work, the responsibility, of running a guild of this size, to me appears to be in keeping with the GWJ philosophy. No single person responsible for every single little issue. No one person who has to shoulder the burden.
My hats off to the GWJ officers. All of them. You guys have an extremely difficult job that I don't envy. Any decisions that the leadership makes will always have my full support.
*Bandolique (70 Combat Rogue)
*Amara (70 Fire Mage)
*Zeus the Good Luck Dog making the Lords of Kara/SSC/TK cry whenever he is around
Although I talk a lot in Vent and seem pretty outgoing on WoW; I tend to resist posting things unless really necessary.
So, here are my two cents worth.
First being a guild member for over a year and trying to get to "Raid" level status with my family. I am going to be livid if this guild breaks up before I can Raid with them.
Second, having leadership governing policies and methods struck down, changed and imposed without the governed body consulted is a coup (done by a Group) or dictatorship (done by one person). I have been online every night for over a week. First I heard about it was tonight watching my best friend I protected and fought for in actual battle quit the guild. My daughter saw it too. I am pretty sure the governed body did not know the guild government changed. Just a GUESS.
Third, I trust this guild with the welfare of my family. My daughters are under age and I have no fear letting them run with anyone Khush or the other guild officers screened and let in the guild. For those that don't know me personnaly that is an unbelievably huge trust I put in this guild. I enjoy everyone I have talked to and ran with in the guild. Simply put don't compromise the guild by lowering standards for admission and don't push away those already here. We are very much like a family!
Forth, being retired military, organizations such as this guild that have survived through out history and prospered the best only have one leader. The set up described placing an Officer in change of raiding another in charge of banking and another in charge of what ever is great! Having a second in charge in their absence would be better. But their can be only one leader. That person has to have final say. Our President has Advisors and Secretaries with great and magnificent power. They are held accountable by those governed but they all answer to one person.
Fifth, leaders will never say and do everything you agree with unless you are the leader. The traits of a great leader are too numerous to list here. Making the right call and sticking with it when many are complaining loudly is one such trait. Our job as guild members is to support our leader. That does not mean follow our leader as lemmings. Asking questions and giving advice/opinions in a polite respectful manner is recommended. BOTTOM LINE: When the leader makes up their mind we support it! "˜Nuf said.
I hope I did not talk your ears off. I had a lot to say that needed saying.
Please remember there are those in this guild that have and are fighting to protect your right to free speech. Exercise that right with wisdom, respect, and intelligence: Think twice and write once.
I hope to see you all on the battle field in a raid before Jan 08. Take care and God Bless!
Now the Field of Battle is a land of standing corpses;
Those determined to die will live;
Those who hope to escape with their lives will die. - Wu Chi
Reap is now guild leader, he got drafted. Please give him the love and support you gave me.
Live Strong
May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house. ~ George Carlin
As a long time player in MMORPG's I'll say this much.. guild councils are very difficult to make work.
I edited my post to be less of a downer..
I'll say that the most successful hardcore AND casual guilds are in general run by one person that is completely objective..fair.. plays no favorites..has a consistent goal and tone.
Officers in the guild tend to assist in day to day crap.. running raids.. helping the GM organize the raid.. help ensure people are gemming correctly.. running the right mods.. understanding strategies.. etc..
You need a single voice though.. a buck stops here person though.
Aint nothing new about the world order..it's been playing since the day they put George Washington on a quarter
85's face the truth you're too dumb.
http://www.myspace.com/armyofthepharaohs
Folks and dear readers and GWJ Alliance members, my thoughts...for what they are worth...
The choice of the word 'coup' could not have been a more poorly chosen and in this case mis-used word. Since Certis and then Leap, Deep and then Khush, we have had a succession of folks who have been wonderful caretakers/CEO's of the guild. The exec's have always provided a supporting ad-hoc 'council' for these members, and, due to the 'politics' that arise, or a member moving, or a member stopping playing, or leaving to raid more, the guild leadership has been passed on. Nothing new has occurred, just the winds of change that constantly swirl.
This new suggested structure just helps to formulate what has always existed in theory, into reality due to the influx of new members and growth. It becomes too much, and I think Kiri would probably agree that the pressure and politics of the job take a lot of the fun out of the game for a CEO. Furthermore, short of a hard core raiding group we will never be, our strength has been always in a casual nature that we have operated.
Lone, I agree with your statements in a military organization, but many successful companies (most?) have a board that serves to work with the CEO. The CEO handles the day to day ops/decision. The CFO handles the coin, etc. For a guild that is and always has been a 'casual' guild, my personal opinion is this is the best structure to support our growth, and take that pressure off of one individual. The word casual almost implies the need for a council imho.
Kiri has done a wonderful job, shepherding the growth of the guild, and keeping things rolling over the past many months. That thanks should be expressed to her loudly and often.
That said, this new structure is a suggestion, and we all look forward to many comments and thoughts on this.
OH...and Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all!
More later...off to work!
Unless you're running out of mana overhealing is the most worthless stat in the game. Underhealing is effectively known as "wiping".
so sayeth the Bear...
Well,I have had the honor, if one can call it that", of being on councils before and even of running a guild before and here is how I see it. Shortly put a general democracy with each council member having an equal say in the day to day administration and critical decisions of a guild is no more than a disaster. The only times I have seen anything like it work is for a council,even in total member numbers, and a guild leader with the deciding vote in event of ties,and even then there are problems. A true democracy has never in any form worked rather in government or any other endeavour. I have been in management well over 20 years and though I always consider my employees views and keep an open door attitude towards them expressing themselves, ultimately I am going to do what I think is best.....sorry but thats the job....not to please everyone....but rather to do the job as best you can.
One of the reasons that I came to this guild was the casual raiding policy, but also because I had gone into instances with GWJ and liked the way that Khush led them and of their overall team attitude, they seemed to be a happy and cohesive unit and as any military person will tell you,that stems directly from the leadership.So when I left KA, I talked to only 1 person representing 1 guild and it has been the best choice I have ever made in game. Change however is inevitable and as a loyal GWJ member I promise to keep my mouth shut in game and play my best for all of you while keeping my eyes open to the changes to see if it is still a good fit for me. I will serve Shank and GWJ with the same fervor and loyalty that I did when Khush was in charge and everyone here should do the same. I would like to say that we are not quite the casual guild that raids anymore,just check the forums,we busy ourselves doing Kara and heroics every day. You can check out our typical night in guild chat,arenas,bg,heroics,non heroics...etc, that is not a sign of a casual guild and that is quite a change from when I first arrived at this guild. It has made me change my game and my attitude about raiding The numbers in this guild have grown quite a bit over the last few months and we have as good and talented players as any guild I have known.
Lastly, I see no good reason for a "transparent" leadership,no matter whom decides these matters you folks better trust them in their decisions. What good does it do to know how or why that decision was made....and how could it possibly impact this extravagent game of cyber chess that we play...it's a game and nothing else.We all make more important decisions every day in real lfe that humble this little hobby we call WoW. Now I meant no harm to anyone in making this post and if any are offended that certainly was not my intent. I am naught but a member here and have no interest in ever being on any council again,it is a thankless job and a tiresome one...and everybody thinks they can do a better job,and as bad as council is,its a walk in the park compared to being the Guild Leader,so good luck Shank and the rest of the council as well.
I use to say "Die young and leave a good looking corpse" too late for that now!
Ok, since I haven't been on, I have a few questions to catch up:
1. Who are the new members of the council (use WoW character mains, please)? How was it determined that these were the best candidates to lead our growing guild? What is the leadership structure below the "Council of 5", if any?
2. Have any established members left due to this change? If so, who? And, if known, why?
3. What precipitated this change in guild leadership structure? I.e., what challenges are at the forefront of new council's agenda?
I am not for or against this change as I don't know enough about it to make any kind of decision. I don't know if this was a "coup", a decision by Khush or a combination of both. I was one of the Council of 5 for a guild of around 220 members (with over 300 60s combined), so I fully understand the challenges of running a large guild. Change can be both positive and negative and I'd like to hear more regarding this change from all sides.
I am so going to quote that out of context.
Currently the only post officially filled is me (Shanker) as GM. As the plan currently sits, we will have the Council - The Officers - the Guild. All officers will be allowed to participate in council discussions/meetings (ie: bringing issues to the council's attention) but the final say on issues will be left to the council.
Several members were temporarily guildless but are now back in GWJ. If they personally want to comment, it's up to them, IMO.
Other than that, the guild hasn't lost any members that I know of.
Well, to directly answer your question; Khush promoted me to GM. As to what challenges? Well, selling you people on this "crazy" plan of ours.
Incidentally, if I've misrepresented any issues or ideas here, I'm sure the other officers will be beating me to death shortly.
"If Blizzard announces a subscription fee for Diablo III we will have to build a second Internet to make room for all the complaining." - muttonchop
That's cool, thanks for the answers Reap. Let me know how I can help.
I am so going to quote that out of context.
Can't agree with this enough.
Gamer Tag: Rantyr
Regardless of the leadership, whether it be a single person or cooperative, there remains (in my opinion) one key component to success:
You need to allow people to express respectfully posed opinions or ideas without fear of retribution or ostracizing.
A few weeks ago, Hanta half-jested that we had too many healers. I joined in on the tongue-in-cheek mantra and expanded it to a real issue, at least a real issue as I saw it. We were undergoing a growth spurt and our numbers seem to indicate that we could go beyond our "1 Kara team & nothing else" approach. So I voiced my opinion.
I was told, literally, to shut up. I was told we'd *never* run more than 1 Kara team. I was accused of asking to have my cake and eat it too. I got bashed here & in game. And, quite frankly, it was by officers and leaders. Why? Because I thought that we should including more people in more organized events.
I spent two weeks after that avoiding anything that resembled input. I stayed out of the KA alliance thing, not because I didn't have an opinion, but because I didn't want the burden of more negativity.
I was happy to see others pick up the baton on the second Kara team and quietly joined in where I could. But I've not felt comfortable being forthright since.
Listen"… the "be excellent to each other and have fun" is what it's all about, but to blindly say that any leadership is above the rest of us, always does the right thing, and has always looked out for the "little people" is just asinine. I'm sorry. Being a GWJ Officer/Leader doesn't make anyone better or worse than anyone else. I respect and appreciate the work that goes into maintaining any organization. Don't get me wrong. I truly appreciate it. But to say that any one person amongst us is responsible for the success or failure of the group just doesn't work for me. GWJ, like a good group/raid, is about being a team. No one person should be held accountable for all the successes or failures.
At least that's how I see it.
Everyone is trying to put on their best face, and that's not a bad thing. But I think there's room for input that isn't all smiles and perfection. As long as it's respectful and with the honest intent of improvement as a whole.
Yes, there is the need for a "buck-stops-here" person. And the idea of having a council that collectively advises is a good one. Regardless, though, we are all created equal here and the first level newbie who just joined the guild should be given ear just as readily as the "old guard." They may have something worth hearing.
Beyond that, people shouldn't be afraid to express discontent, either. There should be nothing wrong with someone say, "Hey, I don't feel like you support the mid level folk anymore" or "How come we can only deposit to the bank, but not withdraw? Can't we at least have one tab that's open to everyone?" It doesn't mean they are right or that they'll get what they want, but I am sure it would make people feel better if they could opine freely.
There's a lot of good people working hard towards making GWJ Alliance better than ever. I applaud the effort, admire the tenacity, and believe in their intent.
4E D&D Campaign: Valley of Shrouds
Steam Community: ShadeRaven
In business, military, etc., I agree.
However, I am not sure this completely applies to the game. The GM hasn't invested more time or money, doesn't necessarily have better training or more skill, etc. They aren't necessarily better equipped than the underlings to make decisions and determine what's best for the organization. That's why I think you have to treat people more as equals in this setting than normal. I'm not sure about others, but I don't play WoW to be bossed around or overlorded.
The part of GG's post I thought was more significant, actually, was this piece:
Whether singular or a collective, I think this is far more important than any other aspect of leadership as it pertains to WoW Guilds. The only way this can be achieved (imo) is if they listen more than dictate.
4E D&D Campaign: Valley of Shrouds
Steam Community: ShadeRaven
From an outsiders perspective I'll offer the following: This typically happens when people are desperately trying to protect their raid spot. The officers and leaders responsible should have been either told to cease and desist immediately or be removed from their respective positions. Insecurity and greed will not co-exist with progression. Without progression you will without a doubt lose your best players.
I used to think the same thing until we tried it. It was for the same reasons you guys have decided to do it. It started off great but after awhile it got so bad that we had a guild split. To spare you the gory details it came down to the fact that there were too many cooks in the kitchen. You need one person willing to jump in and with the guilds interests at heart have the final say so. We had one guy decide to step up and be that guy. Council was still in place but was mainly as a conduit for the rest of the players to talk to. It kept from overloading the GL.
With this system in place we've been the most successful compared to our other iterations.
Gamer Tag: Rantyr
Details are everything. Where you actively trying to progress and push content or just maintain a casual atmosphere? Was the council deadlocking on issues, if so what issues? Etc.
Just curious.
"If Blizzard announces a subscription fee for Diablo III we will have to build a second Internet to make room for all the complaining." - muttonchop
Disagree.. the whole concept of a successful guild is exactly that..your GM does invest the most time.. offline and on.. I cant imagine a successful guild where your GM isnt at 95% of the raids.. has more than just general knowledge of all classes,spec's,tactics,raid makeups etc..etc..
Your GM really should be one of your best if not THE best player in your guild. You can certainly still treat your guildmates fairly..equally and with respect.. BUT in the end like any other successful organization/team/company you have to have a singular driving force/voice that everyone in that guild respect on some level.
Running a raid where everyone thinks their the boss and should have equal say in raid decisions is a HUGE recipe for disaster.
Aint nothing new about the world order..it's been playing since the day they put George Washington on a quarter
85's face the truth you're too dumb.
http://www.myspace.com/armyofthepharaohs
Respectfully Sun, when you chose to leave the guild rather than look for a way to voice you opinions, in my eyes you lost some credibility when speaking to this topic. The number of execs who were shocked at the late night gquit of your families' characters is not something any of us expected. I was in vent with multiple officers as it happened and we honestly thought we were seeing things.
At the time when you asked about running 2 Kara groups, we were on a cusp of being able to field 20 people into Kara. Of those 20 people, the group make-up would not support 2 successful raids and having 2 groups racking up large repair bills with nothing to show for it seemed a bad idea to me. In case people forget, it had been stated before that we DID want to get to a point where we had 2 groups raiding Kara. The only thing holding us back was the ability to field 2 full teams of about 15 people each. To me you took an answer of "not yet" to mean "no".
I would suggest that if you wish to discuss any of this further that it happen in a new thread. The intention of this thread is to discuss the proposed actions of the guild going forward and to solicit feedback from our guild members.
If this thread derails into a discussion on who did what or it-said, he-said, she-said I fear an implosion and splintering.
GWJ Alliance on Blackhand
Lunazul - Rouge & GWJ Paparazzo
Lunarel - Druid
Funkenpants wrote:
We're like you a casual raiding guild that was starting to progress in the end game. It got to a point where people on the council were getting their knickers in a twist because they wouldn't get their way on some points (dkp dispersment,guild bank,scheduling) and would start fussing to their friends about it. Finally it got to a point where instead of trying to work together to find a common ground they started bitching and moaning to the player group outside of the council. Then that got the player base all riled up. Finally half the council and the people they befriended decided they wanted to leave.
What's crazy is if you had asked me that would've happened back when we formed the council i'd say no way. We were all friends and had been for almost a year. We had survived an alliance split almost a year before that and was actually moving forward on the End Game again. We were a tight group. Or so i thought.
Gamer Tag: Rantyr
Not to mention just taking forever to finish if you can finish.
Gamer Tag: Rantyr
We're not talking about raids, GG. But, on that particular topic, I hear you loud and clear.
"If Blizzard announces a subscription fee for Diablo III we will have to build a second Internet to make room for all the complaining." - muttonchop
What about class leaders? Having one person in charge of each class who knows that class well & can help others? Regarding anything to do with that class- spec, gear, gems, enchants, etc.
Schnuggles- 70 affliction warlock
Newark- 70 restro druid
Schniggles- 70 frost mage
and ...
WOW: GWJ Alliance on Blackhand (BHA)
For over a week I've been trying to convince Shade/Sun/Aes and Vall to come back to GWJ. I'm glad to see him finally talking here. This guild is supposed to be a family, and I'm sure I'm not alone in hating it in when my family has fights. Seeing people that I love leave my family because they don't feel welcome really, really disturbed me, to the point where I questioned whether we could keep this thing together at all, or should.
We need to recapture our tone as a guild, and we need to do it right now. I'm not really sure how we got to this point, or this thread, but we need to seize the opportunity to make this the guild that we want it to be.
Regardless of the leadership format we choose, we should elect our leaders on a regular basis. I don't believe in any kind of elite ruling class, nor in the divine right of kings - I'm surprised to see so many people in favor of having one all-powerful, unelected leader. I personally like the idea of a council of which the GM is simply a member. We have to have a GM thanks to the mechanics of the game, but there's no reason we can't choose how our government should be run.
Quote:
- Legion, taking "keeping it in the family" to a whole new level.
Xbox Live: Fedaykin98
If I may comment on that Schnuggles,I have seen that situation before in raid groups and while it does help somewhat you are looking at micromanaging and that can be difficult. Moreover say that the person who leads the rogue class is subtlety speced....their experience is mostly gonna be in that genre and not so much in say combat. However on the plus side I have seen it galvanize a class together and make it easier for classes to get gear and help from someone who shares their class interest. So the idea does have merit in my opinion.
I use to say "Die young and leave a good looking corpse" too late for that now!
RedJen/Luna, I am boiling mad at how you are trying to trivialize and stigmatize Shade. How dare you tell him to butt out of this thread?
For the record, he talked to me extensively before he left. I did everything I could to try and keep he and Vall with us. I asked him not to do anything rash or leave when I wasn't online, and he was a good enough friend to respect those wishes. No, I'm not an officer, but when the officers are the problem then just who the hell do you talk to?
Well, I would imagine that he talked to Tibbsy, so there's an officer for you.
Seriously, if I say anymore this computer will explode.
Quote:
- Legion, taking "keeping it in the family" to a whole new level.
Xbox Live: Fedaykin98
As long as we keep this principle in mind (casual & community focus first, in-game achievement goals second), the core of GWJ's philosophy should remain intact. Shortfall and Shaderaven both brought up my own concerns and phrased them far better than I can. So just re-read their posts and add on "My name is Farscry, and I endorse this message".
Game achievements are temporary and pale in comparison to the importance of our community. Always keep that in mind. Would anyone rather have full T3 gear from pre-TBC right now in place of having one of our friendly guildies? I can't imagine trading out any of my guildmates out of the guild in favor of some loot. And putting achievements ahead of people is the shortcut to just that, so let's make sure to keep our focus in the right places.
Kiri, I hope that getting the burden of leadership lifted off your shoulders helps you be able to thoroughly have fun and enjoy the game without having to worry about playing cat shepherd.
Alert the media, Farscry and I are back to sharing one brain after a several-month estrangement - something must be going right.
Quote:
- Legion, taking "keeping it in the family" to a whole new level.
Xbox Live: Fedaykin98