WoW BHA - Save the Gamers
Monday, December 3rd, 2007 - 3:36pm
I've posted this under one of the Kara threads, but I'm thinking that it may be better to get the topic some attention on its own.
Not sure about everyone else, but I'm a bit weary in general. My weariness stems from frustration with being unable to find tanks and/or healers to run heroic instances. (I know, post it if you are looking for something specific.) What I'm talking about is the situation where during prime gaming hours, there are 20+ guild members online with no tanks or healers to be found.
Our tanks & healers seem a little burnt out and by the time they get outside of raiding instances, they want to avoid instance running and take on tasks where they can be killed at their own leisure without guilt.
The dps specialists who want to run instances are hovering like vultures looking for a tank or healer. I'm sure this isn't exactly helpful to lowering the stress levels of our tanks & healers.
If I was a high level tank or healer, the first way I'd avoid pressure to run when approaching burn out would be avoid the situation causing me stress. This means I'd just not log into the game. So if you are a tank or healer, please know I'm okay with this type of vacation. I wish you wouldn't, but that's me being selfish.
I'm going to put forth again the suggestion that until we have 30 separate people who can run Kara, that 2 teams trying to do the entire place in a single week may be too much for GWJ's casual gamers. We've got multiple people quickly approaching the level 70 milestone and I think the goal of 30 people geared and keyed for Kara is not far off. I try to go out of my way to protect people from burn-out and I've seen some early symptoms over the last week.
I want to know what people think. I've seen a lot of people playing alts recently. I've even started a healer who may eventually be able to raid, but she's not nearly as much fun to play as my rogue. (Props to the healers, it ain't easy.)
"Save the Gamers!"
Really, what do you think?
For me, it's a double edged sword. I love being needed and included, but I do get tired and often end up pushing myself to carry on. I really like helping people, that's why I roled a support class to begin with, so, when someone says they need help, I try to help. Sometimes I just need to be alone and left to my own devices, so I solo a lot of the content, do a lot of herb and mote farming and I have several alts. Some nights when I really want to run something, I find that all the other healers are on and nobody needs me, and I pout a little bit. I'm sure everyone has had similar thoughts and feelings, we're all in this boat together. So, I welcome more healers, but I know there are times I'll feel left out and I'm ok with that, I'll try not to pout out loud and just go find something else to do.
Not sure if this is the kind of input you were looking for, but there it is.
This is exactly the kind of dialog I was hoping to prompt. My main is a rogue because I enjoy the thrill of sneaking into places I shouldn't be and snooping around without being killed. I love to run instances, but I'm loathe to put pressure on the support classes for fear of putting them in a situation where they feel like they've let me down by saying "no".
Maybe a better question is what do the tanks and healers need from the rest of us? Too be honest we need you more than you need us. What can we do to make your lives easier?
GWJ Alliance on Blackhand
Lunazul - Rouge & GWJ Paparazzo
Lunarel - Druid
Funkenpants wrote:
I think our Paparazzo is steming into Activism
I prefer to look at numbers myself, and that's where I see the issues:
Active & Consistently played 70s:
2 Pally Tanks (Krindle, Azorius)
2 Warrior Tanks (Blyvie, Knightly)
2 Druid Tanks (Vilius, Vultic)
1 Druid Healer (Khushmynta)
2 Priest Healers (Juturna, Aesildur)
1 Pally Healers (Hantaxp)
(By Active & Consistent, I mean likely to be on during peak hours on any given day, usually 5x or more a week)
~20 Dps players
Let's assume you want to have a night seeing as many guildies in heroics as possible, you could have 20 people doing that at once (5 groups). However, this would account for 4/6 tanks, and 4/4 healers, but only 12/20 Dps. Almost 3 full groups worth of DPS is healerless. There's your bottleneck. I am seeing a few people lately start to roll healing classes (pallies, priests, shamans & druids) to alleviate this stress, and I think it'll work. Those feeling left out because they don't have a healer available are likely rolling a healer instead, same with tanks. Or they go pugging and find a decent one that may then become a guildy.
Overall, I think this is a cart before the horse, as I keep tabs on alot of people to see who is burning out. I remember asking Crazy how he felt about doing Kara 6 times last week, and he said he'd do 7 if we had enough people for it
I just think it's a bad time of year for gaming, especially for us students that make up 1/2 the tanks/healers right now. We've got finals, and ya know, school is pretty important
Copingsaw wrote:
Super K - The "Anti-Wipe"
Forget activism, I'm being selfish. I want to do things that require tanks & healers. Happy tanks & healers lead to me getting to do things I want to do.
And school is important, so reminding us that finals are upon you helps us know what is going on. I had finals at one time and I think I've blocked most of those memories out on purpose...
GWJ Alliance on Blackhand
Lunazul - Rouge & GWJ Paparazzo
Lunarel - Druid
Funkenpants wrote:
In that case, I have a two major papers I need to work on this week, and a group meeting schedule for wednesday. Don't expect Krindle to be online more than enough for 2 heroic runs between now and Saturday. This tank is also happy when people send him Adamantite, Eternium and Khorium Ore/Bars to make tanking heroics easier
Copingsaw wrote:
Super K - The "Anti-Wipe"
It sounds like we will have a natural lull for the Holidays and perhaps we can take off a few weeks from Kara until after the new year. Besides, with badges from heroics, running them is just about as productive (and just about as hard) as kara. As a result, the clan is still progressing and we all get some sort of a break and are fired up to return to Kara and beyond.
There is definately a supply and demand factor to guild class makeup. If we are short on one class or role, there will be a motivation for new players or alts to fill that need. If things get bad enough with a lack of healers and/or tanks, it will correct itself ... maybe not right away, but it will happen.
I think the idea of going at Kara a little lightly over the next few weeks is a great one. Like Luna, I love my rogue, the sneaking just tickles this law-abiding citizens fancy, but without happy tanks and healers I am just a dagger without a back to stick it in. With finals for the students and holidays and vacations taking it easy might just be the ticket to prevent everyone from burning out.
Like Luna, let me know what our tanks and healers would like to keep them happy. Need someone to kill something repeatedly? A bank full of those special pots? Powering up an alt? Proof-reading a paper? (as a former english major I still do this for off-line friends who are in grad school) Whisper, shout, throw something at us dps-ers. We may be selfish
but with enough force we do get the clue.
*Bandolique (70 Combat Rogue)
*Amara (70 Fire Mage)
*Zeus the Good Luck Dog making the Lords of Kara/SSC/TK cry whenever he is around
I happen to have a 29 priest that I really dont do alot with,but after I get Emptor(ret pally...but willing to respec for the guild if needed)...I will raise her levels up. There really might be a good incentive to respec Emp, he is at 66 now and I played him as a holy pally till he made 60,so I have a little experience there and Cleria could bring me up to speed on how she heals so well as a pally,let me know what you think and if you guys want me to,I will spend more time leveling Emp.
I use to say "Die young and leave a good looking corpse" too late for that now!
Holy crap, Krin! Active & consistent being 5+ days a week?
I'll never meet those stats.
I do hope to be available on occasion soon for weekend stuff, and hearing that 70's healers are wanted makes me feel all warm & tingly inside.
Depending on finals prepping, I might even get to pop in sometime this weekend with Alaysha.
When you have a large group of people playing a game, there will always be many ways of playing. Since we are small, we run the risk of burnout. A few light weeks is likely a good idea.
Live Strong
May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house. ~ George Carlin
Yeah, you missed a big growth spurt Thurgarn
I average 6 - 7 days a week online, or about 30 hours a week myself. And I know there are some people who are there before I log on and after I log off. So given that, you're likely to see those tanks and healers on actively and consistently
On this note, I'll still post to see who is interested in Kara the next couple of weeks, but for Xmas - New Years, I won't be doing any posts. Likewise, we're likely to see only 1 raid going to Kara with a schwack of an alt list too
Copingsaw wrote:
Super K - The "Anti-Wipe"
Sidenote: Is there an upcoming officers meeting to plan goals for the new year, content and admin-wise?
Copingsaw wrote:
Super K - The "Anti-Wipe"
This is fairly standard...even in a guild of our size its rare you'll find our regular raiding tanks and healers available to tank on off raid nights.. its just to stressful to be in those "less-glamour" roles and be available night in and night out to run those instances over and over.
Aint nothing new about the world order..it's been playing since the day they put George Washington on a quarter
85's face the truth you're too dumb.
http://www.myspace.com/armyofthepharaohs
This is partially what caused burnout for my on my priest and the reason why I rolled a DPS class.
I played a holy priest for over 2 years and loved it. Everyone likes being wanted and rolling a healer is a great way to be wanted. However, it's a push-pull...
1. If there are too few healers (or tanks) in the guild, then everyone wants your time and there is peer pressure to accommodate groups. You get into the situation of wanting to log off soon and someone will say "hey, help us run Bot...we have 4 and we need your help". It's tough to turn down guildies and I've had them get pissed off because I refused, even though I was so tired my head was about to make impact with the keyboard.
2. The flip side is this: when you're online and not needed, the game is a lot less fun. Those battleground matches become downright painful when you die in 3 hits and can't inflict any damage. It was (and probably still is) a bitch to farm with a support class. Those "kill 20 foozles" quests? It takes more time. Those netherwing reputation quests I can do with my mage in an hour? Add another half hour at least with my priest. Farming for motes/mats becomes FAR more painful. So a support class really needs a DPS class to farm for them. Note I leveled my mage first this time...
So I felt this push/pull between being obligated to run instances, yet I found a lack of fun things to do when I wasn't needed in instances. After a while I just got burnt out.
(Scatterbrained thoughts below)
I've kicked around the idea of rolling a shadow priest as my next alt because it would go damn well with our paladin tank base. Plus, deep down, I liked my priest and we don't have many shadow priests in the guild. But I'm hesitant to do so without knowing there will be a place for me when I hit 70. Will I get left behind? I'm just hitting my stride as a mage - I'm starting to rock serious damage, building up PvP points, got my flying mount, got keyed for Kara - and I'm reluctant to essentially "throw away" all that hard work because I know as soon as I level a priest, I probably won't get to play my mage as much. I'm willing to do that to help the guild, but man...I just scaled that mountain...to do it again so soon...I'm not sure I can face that yet.
Then again, with the lack of healers and tanks, I don't want to have to wait and wait and wait for instance groups. That's no fun either. I haven't gotten into too many instances lately and after these rep grinds there's not much else except for PvP. And I've found I don't need a damn thing from these rep grinds. Nothing...so I'm not sure why I'm doing them.
Hmmm...I wonder if I should start a shadow priest for my PvE character and keep my mage for PvP...best of both worlds perhaps?
(Scatterbrained thoughts off)
If you followed that stream-of-consciousness bullcrap above, I'd love to hear your thoughts.
I am so going to quote that out of context.
Level 70 Mongol Warrior Tank
I could maybe contribute. I have a level 70 tank I could move to Blackhand. Thing is, Turchuk the Mongol came up as a dps warrior and doesn't have tank gear or tactics yet. Converted from fury to prot at lvl 70. If I cd get some help getting geared, I would like to play with BHA.
Afterthought
I'd probably use Turchukhunt, my lvl 1 night elf hunter on BH first, to check out our gaming style. What do you guys do when I really do something dumb? Does the word tard come up? Etc.
What level do I need to be to get in the BHA guild? Would like to find a guild party for DM around level 18 - 20. Before that, soloing is fine.
Lvl 1 is fine to join if we know you from here mastrude
As for Balckadar's comments, I'm a big fan of the pally/priest combo. Any spec with those two classes work well together IMO, since you're getting heals from the priest one way or another, you can force threat in the direction you want too (BoSalv, Fade, BoP, RF, etc). I think one of the first successful Kara runs we did had 2 shadow priests in it (Monolei and Copingsaw). I'm pretty sure it was the first time we took out Attumen, Moroes and Maiden on the first attempts...ever! And healing classes, as a tank, I've got all the respect in the world for them, they keep me alive when I pick a fight with something 10x my size, like the sober friend with a barstool
My next toon is likely going to be a shammy healer. I like the class and can definitely see myself playing it to 70. It'll be a backup like Gloc where an extra healer is needed when one can't be found.
Copingsaw wrote:
Super K - The "Anti-Wipe"
Naa, usually everyone just laughs and then the sharing "Hey remember when I totally spaced that button and killed everyone" memories begin. Oh and lets not forget all times we have had to shout for a rez cause we killed ourselves and can't get back to our bodies.
*Bandolique (70 Combat Rogue)
*Amara (70 Fire Mage)
*Zeus the Good Luck Dog making the Lords of Kara/SSC/TK cry whenever he is around
I realize it's a bit off, but I'm working decently hard on my warrior, and I love instances and so far enjoy doing tanking stuff. Not sure what burnout might look like, but I really enjoy playing directly with others more than solo, although chat certainly makes that more bearable.
I've also got a priest alt that I haven't played in a while. Maybe I'll try to devote a little time to him here and there since it looks like healers are potentially a slightly bigger need right now. I've just been enjoying my warrior so much that he's been languishing.
(So looking forward to getting up in levels and being able to run with folks more often...)
BHA: Kamyndra - 80 Prot Warrior, Tyraan - 68 Enhance Shaman, Selian - 61 Warlock, Rahodius - 60 Priest
.......and everyone forgets the dwarf pally healer......
my problem is I have been really busy with work lately and no guarantee when I'm travelling that I'll have a decent internet connection. I log in when I can. Problem is, I can't do quests solo anymore I have geared myself to just being able to heal. I can't make money with Storms anymore, and I hate farming, I am up for instances when I am on if people need me. Just realize I have been healing a long, long time. 5+ years in EQ 1, DAoC, and now 2+ years WoW, 8 years now I have been playing healers of some sort or another.
Hope that answers your question in a round about way....
Wannabe priest with a sword....
I have seen this a few times lately, as some people decide to come along for late night heroics when they have strayed "one heroic too far".
#1. These problems can be easily remedied by the large percentage of hybrids that we have in the guild. I can do it all, the pally's can heal or tank (I have heard they can dps, but we have not had the chance to prove this unfounded rumor), DPS Shammy's *can* heal once in awhile, and even the shadow priests *can* heal in a pinch.. although I think we only have one active Shadow priest in the guild now.
#2. Our usual shortage is A. Healers, B. Tanks, and C. CASTERS. I am amazed at how hard it is to find a lock or mage for a herioc sometimes... especially when the presence of one makes the difficultly level drop from Hot to Mild. So do not fret ItsNotH2O, you are always welcome!
#3. Holiday is coming, but January will bring a new vigor to the guild. I have the feeling by then we will be working on stuff that this summer we would have never thought possible.
#4. Please do not do anything you know you will not enjoy. You will burn out faster that way and only resent your log in time. This goes for all of you.
I enjoy all my roles, but as a druid I can do the 4 main things rather well in a pinch as long as I respec (Oh no 20g!) so I am a lucky s.o.b.
No one told me we have goals!
Playing WoW as: Vilius (70 NE Druid)
“The only function of economic forecasting is to make astrology look respectable.” John K Galbraith
I can say the same thing.
But I know I'm not forgotten!
Funny, at level 68, I feel like I'm waving and saying "hello!"
Blog: GameFinance
Twitter: justinmwhitaker
As I mentioned in my initial post, we've got multiple people who are quickly approaching level 70. (I look at anything 66+ as approaching 70.) Seriously if you want to run a non-heroic instance pipe up, there are chants and patterns that people are still looking for that drop in both heroic & non. There are daily non-heroic instance quests. You want tanking practice, let us know and we'll line up at the entrance.
Honestly, we're really looking forward to everyone hitting 70
GWJ Alliance on Blackhand
Lunazul - Rouge & GWJ Paparazzo
Lunarel - Druid
Funkenpants wrote:
Hey Storms. All you have todo if you want to farm and need help in killing stuff is ask. If I'm on and the mobs are not prohibitively terrible to kill I'll be glad to help you farm.
HOW TO RUN ANY INSTANCE YOU WANT and help recruit awesome people to GWJ at the same time: I've been thinking about starting a thread about this, but since this thread is here, it fits perfectly. The answer is: PUG more. Now don't get me wrong, I prefer all-GWJ groups, but when they aren't possible, a PUG can be a great idea.
A couple weekends ago, on a Sunday morning, we happened to not have a 70 healer log on until noon-ish. Two groups worth of tanks/DPSers commented on how they'd like to run stuff, but we had no healers online. In the midst of this me, Sigsbee, Its, and Shanker ran Steamvaults and Shattered Halls. I just looked at my (full, from PUGing) friends list and found a healer who was willing to run. I had met this guy by PUGing quite some time ago. One of the great things about PUGing is that if you do a few, you stop needing to because you can fill gaps in your GWJ group with people on your friends list.
Later that same day we decided to run a pick-up Kara group for those who hadn't managed to run during the week. The only GWJ 70 healer who wasn't already saved to the normal raid was Aes, so we needed to find a second. Again, I asked people from my friends list and found a guy who agreed to come, joined us on Vent, and did a great job healing. We couldn't have run at all without him.
Last Friday at raid time we needed to find another healer for Blue team; this time Aes went to one of his friends and brought him along, and Endat did an absolutely awesome job for us. He apparently enjoyed the experience, too, because he asked us if we were recruiting.
Speaking of which, some of our favorite guildies have met us as a result of PUGing. You might have heard of this guy named Krindle, for one. I met Knightly and Schnuggles in a PUG, and Aldebarran, too.
Sure, there are bad PUGs; eventually, they make good stories. But again, PUG a couple times, add some people to your friends list, and soon you won't need to PUG. And you can particularly add those people who fill the role you find that you most often need: my friends list is about 50% healers, 50% DPS, but if you are a DPSer then you probably want to have some healers and some tanks on your list.
PUGing when you can't get a GWJ group leads to having friends who eliminate the need for future PUGing, and may really eliminate the need for future PUGing when cool people here and there join the guild. Our strongest form of advertising is to run instances with non-guildies and be our fun-loving, friendly selves.
Quote:
- Legion, taking "keeping it in the family" to a whole new level.
Xbox Live: Fedaykin98
PUGing, in that you add 1 or 2 extra's to a primarily GoodJer group sounds promising. The majority of my bad experiences, and therefore the reason I loath PUGs, came from being picked up into someone else's group. *shudder*
BTW, I recognize Knightly, Schnuggles, and Aldebarran - good people all - but who's this Krindle you speak of?
That which does not kill you, still hurts like Hell. - Anonymous Soldier
None of us is as dumb as ALL of us. - Anonymous Staff Officer
Veni, Vici, Ridebam, Discedebam - "I came, I saw, I laughed, I left"
It's there a law about using my name in vain?
Aye, best PUG I ever got. I remember people being very leery about me at the start wondering why I was lvl 63 and un-guilded. It's definitely rare that you'd find a high level toon looking to get recruited, but then again, the more people that play, the better the chances are that you'll find someone since most of the high raiding guilds, class-guilds etc are content with the people they have. And really, if your choices are between a good guild like GWJ Alliance or Horde, and whatever new guild Mallius creates as he has likely been mutinied yet again from his guild, you're likely to end up here.
Copingsaw wrote:
Super K - The "Anti-Wipe"
Brother Krindle, you've simply got to let the past go. You're prolonged disdain for Mallius isn't healthy.
That which does not kill you, still hurts like Hell. - Anonymous Soldier
None of us is as dumb as ALL of us. - Anonymous Staff Officer
Veni, Vici, Ridebam, Discedebam - "I came, I saw, I laughed, I left"
Troll - yeah, most of my PUG experiences these days are just with PUGing one person using the LFG tool. Btw I love that thing.
Still, my first-ever Heroic Mech run was with a PUG filled with people I didn't know; we beat all but Sepethrea, and I added at least two of them to my friends list.
I'm not saying let's PUG all the time, but a little can go a long way.
- Legion, taking "keeping it in the family" to a whole new level.
Xbox Live: Fedaykin98
Quote:
- Legion, taking "keeping it in the family" to a whole new level.
Xbox Live: Fedaykin98