WoW:BHA 25 Man Raid Alliance
Greetings All!
I was approached by Kings Army to formalize our loose alliance to run 25 man content. I think this is a great opportunity for us to run with old friends and make new friends as well as accomplish the prime objective which is to have fun!
All the specifics have to be worked out regarding days and loot etc. One of the firm things is that we are trying to make the attendance 50/50. I figure since Deepsea is GWJ and KA he makes the 13th man for both sides 
The other thing is that the 25 man content is designed to be run after Kara which means, for survival purposes, we must limit those getting to go to those who are geared to run the second night of Kara. We plan to arrange things so we can continuing gearing folks up and then the officers of GWJ will work out a rotation so everyone will have the opportunity to run.
Khush
Live Strong
May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house. ~ George Carlin
Sounds good to me ill have fun when i am up in the rotation as i am barely kara geared
Yea though I have walked through the valley of the shadow of death I shall fear no evil because it will kill the clothies first
Terase - lvl 70 balance druid
Elorin - lvl 70 frost mage
Teriine - early 30s marksmen hunter
Terrion - early 20's warri
Really? I have been quite enjoying our GWJ runs lately and would be more than satisfied to keep working on Kara as a guild, and then see where we are.
I would suggest great caution in forming a raiding alliance.
- Legion, taking "keeping it in the family" to a whole new level.
Xbox Live: Fedaykin98
Quote:
- Legion, taking "keeping it in the family" to a whole new level.
Xbox Live: Fedaykin98
Let me know when and where, and hopefully with some good advance notice, so we don't plan Kara on the same night (unless we can afford to do so at that time). I've been waiting on GWJ entering the 25mans for a long time now, and look forward to tanking some major stuff
Copingsaw wrote:
Super K - The "Anti-Wipe"
What are we talking about Gruuls and Mag?
Playing WoW as: Vilius (70 NE Druid)
“The only function of economic forecasting is to make astrology look respectable.” John K Galbraith
Yes.
Live Strong
May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house. ~ George Carlin
Based on the drama of the past, I'd suggest caution as well. That said, you can stilll count me in for the fun.
While we're working out the details, Khush, we need to make sure there won't be any bad feelings for (or from) our former-KA guildies. Right?
Good job Boss!
That which does not kill you, still hurts like Hell. - Anonymous Soldier
None of us is as dumb as ALL of us. - Anonymous Staff Officer
Veni, Vici, Ridebam, Discedebam - "I came, I saw, I laughed, I left"
Well as a former KA member I would have no problem with it at all, the folks that remain there from my time with them are all good players and play with an even hand and temperment. Surely, I do agree in caution as far as loot rules and such are concerned as that is common sense no matter what guild an alliance would be formed with. To be sure it always more fun when you run completely with your guildmates but the honest truth is that we all have such varying schedules and real life issues that it makes it difficult to get enough people together for a 25 man right now.This way maybe some of us that cannot always make our GWJ runs will be afforded an opportunity to gear up and get the necessary knowledge to one day do our own 25 man runs. So, yeh put me down for it and if I can help in any way, it would be my pleasure.
I use to say "Die young and leave a good looking corpse" too late for that now!
If real life allows it, Shanker is very interested.
"If Blizzard announces a subscription fee for Diablo III we will have to build a second Internet to make room for all the complaining." - muttonchop
I think this is a fantastic idea. Like others, I have reservations because of problems in the past; however, everyone I have ever met in KA is a class act and I know Khush shares these concerns. I want to see this content and this is the best and perhaps only way to do it. As long as we keep it casual and don't ignore the rest of GWJ to concentrate on this content I think we can make it work.
Agreed
That which does not kill you, still hurts like Hell. - Anonymous Soldier
None of us is as dumb as ALL of us. - Anonymous Staff Officer
Veni, Vici, Ridebam, Discedebam - "I came, I saw, I laughed, I left"
I promise to participate that all negotiations with KA for this Raid Alliance under the following guidelines where the end result should consist of
I'll consider additional suggestions, but these are my goals going into our initial discussions.
GWJ Alliance on Blackhand
Lunazul - Rouge & GWJ Paparazzo
Lunarel - Druid
Funkenpants wrote:
I had a discussion on vent with the officers of KA before saying yes and bringing it to you guys. Many of your concerns have already been discussed between myself and the KA officers and we go back a long way into SGA days.They know GWJ (my) policies regarding allowing everyone the opportunity to join the raid when ready and my dislike of DKP. Redjen is the designated liaison to KA for the purpose of ironing out the details.
Sit tight and let Redjen and KA talk. I think we are in for a great deal of fun
Live Strong
May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house. ~ George Carlin
My $.02
It's a fine idea, but it's almost impossible to implement correctly. I've seen this close to a dozen times and never seen it pulled off. Why? Inevitably, you get into problems like this:
Scenario 1
Guild 1 Mage runs 1st night of content and has signed up for night 2
Guild 2 Mage wants to run night 2, signed up after Guild 1 Mage
Joint raid happens, Guild 1 ends up with 15-17 of the 25 spots due to fate
Guild 2 pitches a fit that their Mage isn't included
Guild 1 Mage is excluded to calm things down
Guild 1 Mage gets pissed off and leaves the guild - or causes huge friction
Repeat this scenario about 5-10 times per month.
Scenario 2
Guild 1 Hunter wants to run an instance to get his Kara key
Guild 1 Hunter finds the experienced 70s are busy running the joint instance
Guild 1 Hunter is left behind, leaves guild
Scenario 3
The reason for this is some guild members want to see new content. Period.
Guild 1 and Guild 2 raiders get together, start progressing through new content.
Guild 1 and Guild 2 raiders realize they should start their own guild, leave to form Guild 3.
Guild 1 and Guild 2 are left gutted.
Even though I'm sure everyone has the best intentions, this kind of stuff is inevitable. I was an officer in a guild that was part of the biggest guild Alliance ever on Lothar. We spent so much time on inter-guild issues, it severely distracted from helping people within our own guild. There were too many egos to deal with, too many cooks in the kitchen. We had to mediate fights on when we should go, who should go, how loot was determined (the GWJ loot runes aren't going to work here) and so forth. We finally had to pull out when we realized that the future of the guild was in jeopardy. Looking back, we realized what a huge drama and time sink the alliance was - it wasn't worth it at all. All we had to show for it was a bit of raid progression and a lot of pissed off people.
I've seen guilds split because of decisions like this. I saw two of the biggest Uldum horde raiding guilds close down because Scenario 3 killed them. The raiders got together, started talking about others in their respective guilds "holding them back" and decided to create their own guild, gutting two others in the process.
I'm not trying to be alarmist here. I can say from personal experience and observation that while this may seem like a good idea, it's fraught with peril. It's hard enough running one guild...now you're essentially trying to run two by committee. You also have to consider what's down the road - what happens when GWJ can bring 20-22 to a 25-man raid? We're not that far off now.
All in all, I strongly urge that that you consider all the ramifications of such a venture before embarking. Personally, if 25-man content is what you're after, then I think the time/energy can be better spent getting GWJ stronger from within so we can conduct those raids ourselves. I'm not an officer, but I hope that you consider these words of past experience very carefully and look again at the potential gain/loss of such a relationship. When I went through this, these types of decisions were made by fine people with great intentions. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Please consider that before you start down this path.
Postscript: This post is in no way a condemnation of the GWJ officers or of any members of the other guild, just a strong warning from my own past experience.
I am so going to quote that out of context.
Everyone involved in this has been there and done that. We have even been there and done that with KA, it went quite well. We all are entering into this cautiously including KA. I understand your concerns and without bringing up long dead problems, we are working hard to prevent them again. We have already made an agreement that the guild leaders will not accept transfers from KA to GWJ and visa versa while we run this alliance. I think we may surpize you
Live Strong
May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house. ~ George Carlin
I understand your optimism. However, I cannot share in it.
Personally, I will be very reluctant to participate in any of these events. That may change over time, but a similar event actually prompted me to quit WoW for about 6 months, so please understand my strong and rather negative opinions regarding this.
I am so going to quote that out of context.
I can understand how that can leave a mark. I hope you will come and join us when you feel comfortable
Live Strong
May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house. ~ George Carlin
I support and trust Khush's leadership ... and her care for every GWJ Alliance member. And caution is always a good thing. I know first hand that Kings Army is first class peoples through the core! At the same time ... let's make sure no one gets left behind.
WOW: GWJ Alliance on Blackhand (BHA)
Brother Black, if you ever want to spend an hour in vent commiserating about past debacles, I'll spin you a tale about the GWJ fiasco with SGA (Small Guild Alliance). We, those of us that have been here a while (almost all the officers), know what you're talking about, and will do our best to not let that happen again. Khush foremost.
If you see in our guild, what you've seen in the past, speak up and stop us. If not, then hold the line, and pray for a brighter tomorrow. I've got your back, and I sleep well knowing you have mine as well.
That which does not kill you, still hurts like Hell. - Anonymous Soldier
None of us is as dumb as ALL of us. - Anonymous Staff Officer
Veni, Vici, Ridebam, Discedebam - "I came, I saw, I laughed, I left"
Black, I got the same sinking feeling that you did when I read the first part of this post. An alliance was one of the many issues that prompted me to leave a raiding guild and come here. Unfortunally 1 of the guilds in that alliance has been nearly disbanded, another is only gradually rebuilding and the third is considering disbanding as well. Having said that, I have been consistently and delightfully suprised and amazed by the leadership here. Things that may have been tossed about as impossible or silly or completely lacking in any sort of sanity work incrediably well for this crew. I have full trust in Luna to hammer out details that will be honest and fair for everyone in both guilds.
*Bandolique (70 Combat Rogue)
*Amara (70 Fire Mage)
*Zeus the Good Luck Dog making the Lords of Kara/SSC/TK cry whenever he is around
I think it's a good idea for a number of reasons, not the least of which is because Redjen, Kiri, Troll, and others who will be involved in this were around and really involved throughout the entire implosion of the SGA. I trust them to know what to watch out for, and I also know that while leaving the SGA left them out of raiding for a good while, they stuck by the GWJ Alliance because the community is what's important to them. If they think that this will open opportunities for the guild while keeping the community strong and not compromising our inclusiveness, then I'll go with their instincts, even if the specter of the SGA debacle still looms eerily overhead.
Ok I amm making a rare second post on this as it seems to be warrented .I left two guilds because of scenerio number 2 ANd in one case i was a guild offericer and a leision for the allience And i left Intoxicated Vision because we werent being fair to the lower guildies .I dont think this will happen here as i think most of us understand the dangers But i do know this will shake things up .I am willing to support the decisions of our Officers and if I see an issue i will bring it forth And If nessary i will exclude myself from the 25 man allience raids to hang back and help others in the guild catch up well thats my 2 cents
Yea though I have walked through the valley of the shadow of death I shall fear no evil because it will kill the clothies first
Terase - lvl 70 balance druid
Elorin - lvl 70 frost mage
Teriine - early 30s marksmen hunter
Terrion - early 20's warri
Ahhh, she's discovered the ancient chinese secret of GWJ.
This sums up my only big concern. It's not that we'd intentionally be unfair, but perception is everything. As we first started talking about a second Kara group, there were a lot of the lowbies complaining that the 70's weren't helping them out (not necessarily for twink runs, but to support them with low-level alts). I know that Jut, Khush, Krindle, and a host of others were helping, but all you heard/read was about GWJ in Kara.
If any guildie personally feels slighted or forgotten in our mad rush to Gruul and beyond, speak out...let people know, so we can do something about it. The GWJ family comes first (well, in WoW it does).
That which does not kill you, still hurts like Hell. - Anonymous Soldier
None of us is as dumb as ALL of us. - Anonymous Staff Officer
Veni, Vici, Ridebam, Discedebam - "I came, I saw, I laughed, I left"
This will be my last post in this thread and, again, I have the deepest respect for the officers of GWJ. I'm just trying to point out alternatives/pitfalls.
I'm just curious about one thing...why now? It would seem to me that GWJ is *almost* to the point of having enough 70s to do these runs on its own. Two more 70s joined last night. Four more got Kara keyed in the last two weeks. It seems that we're this |<-->| close on our own.
And with the holidays coming up, November/December is an awful time to get something like this launched due to the fluidity of everyones' schedules. People will either be out of town or online constantly - no one has a "normal" schedule at this time of year. So why not work to recruit the last 5 or so people needed to fill out our own groups, concentrate on making December an ad-hoc gear/knowledge month and launching our own 25-man raids in January?
Just food for thought...
I am so going to quote that out of context.
This is written as if Farscry has or is about to re-up. We can only hope that Hellgate Longon was insufficient to pull him away for too long and that he is returning.
As long as this doesn't turn out like what happened with SGA, I'm all for it. And the first time anyone gets banned from Alliance outings for voicing their opinion, my support for the Alliance will go away. Although KA went through the same BS as we did with SGA, so I'm sure they are under the same opinion on Alliances.
This needs to be a partnership and not a dictatorship.
Wannabe priest with a sword....
Good food for thought and it is good that people have been comfortable enough to voice dissenting opinions in this thread.
TBC raid content is difficult stuff. It will likely be the end of the year before we have a group of 10-15 people who are capable of clearing Kara. I suspect it will be months after that before we have 25 people whe are capable of doing so and ready to move on to the 25-man content. Given the ebb and flow of MMORPG's, there will likely be people who come and go ... family stuff, burn out, jobs, etc. all cause us to occasionally lose people. Others are strictly casual and will never be geared for the advanced content. It just isn't that easy to get the 25-people we would need.
Some of us really want to experience that content and are geared to do so. I would be happy to wait if I felt cofident that GWJ would be able to field 25 other like-minded and geared people in the next few months. I'm just not sure that will happen.
Another option would be just to move on from Kara to ZA and keep grinding it out on the 10-man content. It will take use another few months to finish that and we probably wouldn't be much worse for the wear. This is a perfectly acceptable alternative and really the only draw-back is that we may never get enough people to see 25-man content.
This is the age-old problem with guilds. Some play more, some play less. Some want this, some want that. We may indeed be making a mistake here but I am willing to take that chance because it allows me to experience a part of the game that I may never get to see otherwise. I think our leaders will organize this in such a way that it has the very best chance of success.
I pretty much agree with Blackadar. We managed to get 12 guildies (due to subbing) into our impromptu Kara run last night with no planning at all. If we planned around having two runs, it would be a slam dunk.
I'm sure the number of people who have participated in the normal Kara group this week is over 15 or more? Love to know exactly how many. Point being, we can easily field 2 Kara groups now, and 25-mans are not out of the question if we find a time that works (I would suggest early Sunday evenings, since we got so many people on last night).
If we're all fired up to run 25-mans, I'd rather we invested the time in our own guild and perhaps did a little proactive recruiting, because we are very, very close, possibly there. I don't think people know that we're out there, but we have a TON to offer like-minded adults. Obviously we're seeing some awesome additions to our guild without us even making much effort, just meeting people in PUGs. I did a run with Its, Sigs and Gloc the other day where we PUGed a healer and used in-game chat...at the end he was raving about our fun attitude and saying that he'd join our guild if he weren't already GM of another.
We easily have enough for Gruul's if we find a time that works for 25 people. If we can't, then adding a few members (and let's not forget all the people who are levelling and will soon be 70) would take care of that. I would say let's clear Kara, take some shots afterwards at ZA, and continue this awesome growth phase that we've been in.
I'm willing to do anything I can to invest in GWJ and contribute to everyone having fun in our unique way.
-Fed (Azorius)
Quote:
- Legion, taking "keeping it in the family" to a whole new level.
Xbox Live: Fedaykin98
I apologize for butting into your thread.
Just thought I'd throw it out there that the guild I'm in beat Gruul for the first time with only 21 people, most of them with only a few pieces out of Karazhan, and no one with any gear beyond that. Composition was sort of trashy too, but we had 7 healers(not all heal spec, just in the gear and doing it), two full prot warrior tanks and one fury/prot warrior tank. I mention all of this because if you think you can get 20 or better people on it, you can at least get started, and I think you'd have a lot more fun focusing within your own guild than doing the whole raiding alliance thing.
Sound like you're in a similar situation as this guild. Everyone's schedules are different, just barely 30 people in the guild, not all of them are quite even 70 yet. Only time we can raid 25 man stuff is on Sunday evenings. A few people hadn't even seen Karazhan yet. Finished Maulgar the first week after about 3.5 hours of trying, Gruul the next week. Haven't progressed any further because it gets harder from there, but it's a start that got people interested in meeting up on Sundays to do 25 man stuff.
Again, sorry for hijacking.
HGL never would've been the factor to pull me away.
Time restrictions and other concerns did that. From the other thread where I voiced my concerns and got some helpful replies, and from some PM conversations, I learned that (fortunately) my concerns were misplaced, so that's awesome to know. 
Looks like I was over-worrying about a perceived problem, as is par for the course for me. 
As for this proposed partnership with KA, I'll elaborate more on why I think it could (emphasis on "could") be good. Those who are opposed to it (particularly Fed and Blackadar) have made very good cases for that, and a lot of points that I fully agree with.
Two main reasons I'm in support of a partnership:
1) We have a long-standing friendship with KA. That, and the Deepsea factor, leave me comfortable with the association being a friendly and less formal one so long as all of the issues are hammered out in advance. That doesn't mean we won't have issues (I foresee some definite pains at all points in the future on this), but at least it will minimize the issues that normally stem from this. And if we need to, we can call off the association without any bad blood. That's what happened back with Zul'Gurub pre-TBC, if I recall correctly, right? We had a regular schedule with KA, and when that stopped working out well, we just mutually called it off and just stuck with informal grouping up when it worked out between people in each guild. If we can do that with this new association, then I don't think we'll see any permanent problems arise.
2) While we as a guild are getting closer to 25-man content on our own, I think that'll have some real challenges logistics-wise for us that will be easier to overcome by having an association for the 25-man content. Yes, technically we have almost enough for two separate Kara runs per week, but only ~one group that meets the stat requirements for the second half of Kara. From reading the forum, it sounds like even the new raid, Zul'Aman (did I spell that right?) is possibly just a wee bit beyond our grasp yet. I imagine that the 25-man content is even moreso. Plus, that still leaves the logistics issue: I don't know that we have enough people to be running Kara for the less-geared, upper Kara and ZA for the moderately-geared, and the 25-man content for the highly-geared all every week (or maybe even every two weeks), not to mention still having time for everyone to work together on non-raid content who wants to help or adventure with the guildies who don't or can't join in the raiding.
Having an association to cut down the numbers we need to provide to still see that 25-man content provides a solid workaround for that problem, and will let more guildies see more content in the long run.
I'm saying this as a guy who will probably never be able to step foot in any of the 25-man raids, whether through GWJ alone or through a GWJ/KA partnership. I'm more just thinking logistically for our community as a whole.
I may very well be off-target in my thoughts, which happens often enough, but that's just what I was thinking behind why I think the partnership could be a good thing for us as long as it's just GWJ/KA and not a multi-guild alliance. I'd be completely opposed to joining one of those again.
Voicing your experience is the GWJ way..
AND doing things off the radar and NOT cookie-cutter is our un-spoken motto.
Thanks for your input and encourages us to press forward. I have remained silent so far on this alliance talk for a number of reasons. Personally, I think working on Kara with a full 2 groups is what we should be spending our time on now and not on 25-man content. We have enough on our plate as it is without adding a alliance with KA to the mix. I can see where that will be heading. Our share of guildies will be going (let's say 12 or 14 each week) and alot of people will be locked out. ALOT including classes and mixes that are not needed. Or someone goes a few weeks in a row, then they will not be needed because of their need being met with a toon from KA.....
Seen this all before, and with 25-man content will happen again. I am all for setting goals of this for a all GWJ run. In due time it will happen, but we need to push this 2 group Kara agenda forward.
The key to victory is to not suck as bad as the other side.