Bullsh*t between bosses and save points.
Monday, October 29th, 2007 - 7:08pm
I hate this. In this particular instance, it's the nonsense speech El Matador throws me before he kicks my ass in Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne, but I also remember the Super-Soldier fight in Return to Castle Wolfenstein had a long, non-skippable speech before the fight.
Why isn't there an option included in every game ever made to skip cutscenes/speeches/other non-gameplay-related bullsh*t before boss attempts? It's annoying enough to have to run a fight a few times to win; it's even worse when you have to jump through hoops to get to the actual fight.
If I didn't drink, Crom would laugh and cast me out of Valhalla when I die. Peer pressure I can handle, but not when it comes from Crom. -Lobo
IMHO the real problem is the existence of Boss fights at all.
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Yes.
The man wears a bucket of KFC on his head. I wouldn't expect anything less. - Pred
I see that idea put forth on occasion and I just don't get it. Boss fights done correctly can be awesome fun. It's just that it's gotten pretty rare for them to be done in a manner that keeps them fun.
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I don't imagine master craftsmen leaping away from completed projects and shouting "Done, motherf*ckers! - 1Dgaf
I like boss fights. I like cutscenes before boss fights. I can even see having to watch the cutscene once before a boss fight. Having to watch every friggin' time you reload is the really frustrating part.
MechaSlinky wrote:
-on L4DMatador... is just a taste of what to come.
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Worse is when the restart point isn't even the boss fight. Metroid Prime 3 took the cake on this one. If died in the last part of the 3 part boss fight (probably 15 minutes so far on JUST the boss fight), you didn't just restart at the boss, you restarted at beginning of the level, adding another 20 minutes. That's 35 minutes lost right there. Bullsh*t.
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The boss fights that I like are the ones in RE4 where if you buy the right weapon you can one hit kill the boss. That's fun. I can't think of too many others that I've actually enjoyed.
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Metal Gear Solid? I thought those boss fights were a lot of fun.
XBL: necrocinnabon
Tetnis wrote:
Psi-Ops was particularly bad about this. Unskippable cutscenes right before lengthy, very tough boss fights, often with no ability to recharge/heal/etc. before starting the fight.
I had to give up after the third (?) one, as I was stuck with a tiny sliver of health and no power at the 'boss is dead' checkpoint, resulting in near-immediate death from the flunkies coming in the room. Not fun.
I wish games tracked the number of times you've repeated a section or boss fight, and offered to just kick you to the next checkpoint when you're clearly not able to progress. Give a worse ending or something to appease teh l33t. It wouldn't be overly expensive to implement in most games, and would make a huge difference in the game's playability for the non-hardcore.
Everything can be debated, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's debatable.
--Chuck Klosterman, Fargo Rock City
There's a balance to be struck here, methinks. On one hand, it's a real pain in the butt to have the save point be a 5-minute jog + 2 minute cut scene away from the boss/"set piece" fight. On the other hand, sometimes you realize that the reason you can't beat the boss is because you have the wrong weapon, at which point you wish the save point gave you a chance to re-equip before the fight started.
A couple possibilities:
Elysium: The democratization of the web ... has installed an illusion of a digital first amendment that protects speech no matter how poorly spelled or stupid.
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elementsofmeaning.blogspot.com
Exactly! I hate it when games have stories or level designs that build up to a dramatic major encounter. Books and movies too. There should be no Darth Vaders or Khans, they should just stick to varied encounters with elite stormtrooper units and klingon boarding parties.
...I hate this game. Actually, last night I realized for the first time why it's bullsh*t having a single character who, if incapacitated, causes the game to end. I was taking out a crowd of Divine Principalities and one got off a successful Hamaon on the hero.
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Or even just a skippable cutscene. I realize the game may not keep track of what happens after I die, but if it could possibly add a little flag that I've fought the boss before and save that part so I could skip the cutscene, I'd be okay with that.
If I didn't drink, Crom would laugh and cast me out of Valhalla when I die. Peer pressure I can handle, but not when it comes from Crom. -Lobo
I agree, but for different reasons. I'm the type of person who'll compulsively grind the trash mobs between the last save point and the boss because I want their rich, tasty treasures and/or the best gear available at the local smithy; by the time I roll up to the boss, I'm sufficiently overleveled to the point where I'm one-shotting all the trash and am looking for a fight that lasts more than a single round. (This is, of course, only applicable in RPGs, but I don't really play anything else.)
If I didn't drink, Crom would laugh and cast me out of Valhalla when I die. Peer pressure I can handle, but not when it comes from Crom. -Lobo
I didn't get tired of hearing their speeches either, especially if they tied into what was being said while the boss fight occured. Remember the Grey Fox sequences during the last bit of Metal Gear Solid? Ooo, good fun that was.
Yet even then we ran like the wind,
whilst our laughter echoed under cerulean skies...
Ugh, now THAT is bullsh*t. It got to the point in SMT: Persona 3 where anytime I was fighing a monster with Hama or Mudo skills and my main character wasn't equiped with something that made him immune, I'd just run away. Instant death spells + game over when main character dies = complete, 100%, unadulterated bullsh*t.
XBL/PSN: zeroKFE | BHA: zeroKFE
I'm getting to that point myself. Worst part was that I had no idea what the Hama- spells did until someone Hamaon'd one of my monsters and I went, "...oh. Sh*t." At that point, it occurred to me that I should probably save every two or three fights, just to make sure, but I ignored my own advice and the very next fight the hero went down in a blaze of light and flying Tarot cards. Of course it'd been seven or eight hard fights since my last save, so I decided I'd had enough of it for one evening. I think I need a Magatama that nulls death/expel effects.
If I didn't drink, Crom would laugh and cast me out of Valhalla when I die. Peer pressure I can handle, but not when it comes from Crom. -Lobo
Yeah, I don't know how the Nocturne game works, but in Persona you equip monsters ("personas") to your character which determine the spells you could use and what your strengths and weaknesses were. After a certain point where the more powerful versions of Hama and Mudo started showing up in the enemy skill sets, I just wouldn't even bother using a persona that wasn't immune to whichever of those two instant death spells was being used on the dungeon level I was on.
XBL/PSN: zeroKFE | BHA: zeroKFE
How about 60 minute multi-stage boss fights with no option to save between stages? I have the patience for at most two tries at one of these before the game is shelved.
I've been waiting for this pain!
Well, I'm certainly not in favor of mandatory talky-bits in boss fights, I'm more just interested in defending the institution of the Boss Fight in general.
XBL: necrocinnabon
Tetnis wrote:
It's pretty much the same; in Nocturne they're called Magatama. They alter your stats and determine what skills you learn as you level; some of them come with immunities and resistances and whatnot. I'm going to give Persona 3 a shot once I pry myself away from this one.
.
Whoa! What game is that, so I know never to try it?
If I didn't drink, Crom would laugh and cast me out of Valhalla when I die. Peer pressure I can handle, but not when it comes from Crom. -Lobo
Many RPGs have that sort of thing, really. Usually I end up just backing off and leveling to a point where it's not a problem, but Rogue Galaxy is one notable example of a game where I threw up my hands in disgust and decided not to bother with beating the final boss because it took so goddamn long and had cheap deaths towards the end. Bleh.
XBL/PSN: zeroKFE | BHA: zeroKFE
I know you're being sarcastic, but I genuinely have no problem with that idea.
What's so terrible about the concept of a game without section-ending battles that spike the difficulty up 300%, completely break the flow of the game and rely far more on pattern memorization than intelligent gameplay?
Halo 1 had very little that could be considered a 'boss fight', and it's the most enjoyable FPS I've ever played. One of the biggest complaints people have about Bioshock is the silly battle at the end. Boss fights are in no way a requirement for a fantastic game.
Everything can be debated, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's debatable.
--Chuck Klosterman, Fargo Rock City
You use a different meaning for "couple" than I do, but then again you've claimed mathematical failings before.
Anyway, there's a better choice still -- save anywhere you want to do so, and have a large number of save slots. You know, like they usually have on PC games, except for those that are frack'n console ports! The "current generation" of consoles are all powerful enough to support this capability.
"Gamers With Jobs will take over the world someday. I hope they're benevolent overlords." -- Bill Harris
Needless to say I agree with Mr. Tomato
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One of the things that made Nocturne extremely difficult is that once you learn new skills, you will lose old ones or you can simply pass up on the new skill and keep the old ones. That was OK with me, until I hit a Red Rider Boss and I learned that everything I had was completely worthless! Not only that, that Boss cast for extra turns and pretty much grind my party to dust. What makes it even more sad is that my party was leveled to a point that everything was fairly easy until a point where you have to fight those 2 bosses. Arh!
I have Nocturne in a pile of games to finish... some day, some day.
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Ah, Persona 3 is a bit kinder in that the personas learn the skills, and you can keep a set of anywhere from 6 to 12 personas at any one time and switch between them as the situation calls for. Each persona can only have 8 skills, though, so you still have to make decisions about which skills to keep. However, the game is kind enough to include systems that allow you to throw away personas that are "broken" and start over from scratch on building their skill sets. Much more considerate than what you've just described in Nocturne.
XBL/PSN: zeroKFE | BHA: zeroKFE
Ha! Yeah, I mean, I'm not against an end-villain who is satisfying to kill, I'm against end-level dudes that are way too difficult and stop the game flow in its tracks.
The most recent example is Lou from Guitar Hero3 on Expert, but you can find examples all over the place. I heard a lot of bitching about "The End" sniper boss on Metal Gear. Or bosses that are ridiculously difficult to kill just because the designer felt like it.
It's usually a difficulty balancing problem, but we should have that worked out by now, don't you think?
The only bosses I've really enjoyed have been in Shadow of the Colossus or in shoot'em ups like Ikaruga, where they're the point of the game. =)
The man wears a bucket of KFC on his head. I wouldn't expect anything less. - Pred
When I read the subject line, I thought it was about games who put you through big battles, and then don't immediately give you the opportunity to save afterwards.
It might not be a "boss" battle, but the most recent one of these I remember was in Rainbow Six: Vegas, where you must fend off a horde of enemies bursting into a theater hall, and after finally completing the slaughter... no checkpoint save yet. You climb a ladder and walk across a catwalk, where a lone enemy bursts through a door and blasts you, DOOM monster closet style. Only after THAT enemy is the checkpoint waiting.
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The End from MGS3 was one of my favorite boss battles ever. Unlike most boss battles, there were many ways to beat him, but at the same time the game rewarded you well for thinking out the situation and approaching it the way that the character Snake would have done it if he was in control of himself.
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Great boss battle: Portal.
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