Oh PS3, you confuse me. ALL PS2 Backwards Compatibility removed on new 40gb model

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So Sony announced their 40gb unit for Europe today and that it comes with a SIXAXIS wireless controller, WiFi, HDMI two USB ports, and no multi memory card port. Hardware / software emultion of the PS2 has been removed entirely. That's a pretty big feature revision.

I wonder if the 60gb price is going to fall.

The move does make me think of grabbing a 60gb from the local Target before they are gone, fully knowing that it will include the rumble neutered controller while just over the horizon, in '08 I think, they are supposed to begin bundling the rumble enabled ones. (I still like rumble )

As a consumer its a very tricky product to purchase. I've held out waiting for a pricedrop, not a hardware reduction. I want one feature from the 60gb (hardware BC), which is kinda key to me. The 80gb is more expensive, offers the software emulation and in time will likely be bundled with the rumble controllers. The 40gb is missing the bc entirely, and for whatever reason, thats important so that'll probably eliminate it from the running.

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Irongut wrote:
As a consumer its a very tricky product to purchase.

No joke. It's like they don't want people to buy it or something. First they make it extremely expensive, so much so that it's a painful decision to try to figure out whether it's worth $600 to play a few PS3 titles and really mostly upscale your PS2 games. Then they do this. It makes a pretty solid argument for picking up a PS2 and just sticking with that.

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subaltern's picture
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I remember someone from Sony saying that consumers didn't want backwards compatibility. That's very hard to believe since everyone in the world has a PS2. My plan was to pick up a PS3 when my PS2 dies, but since Sony is on a mission to anger consumers, I'll just get a Slim.

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I was finally warming to the idea of a PS3 as a baseball machine with The Show and an upscaled MLB Power Pros which everyone seems to love (after all, you could glue MLB '07 into my PSP and it wouldn't faze me in the slightest), but what with the shifting backcompat and rumble I'm totally confused.

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Did they provide a reason as to why they removed the BC?

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I think they said that users interested in backward compatibility have already purchased the console. New users aren't interested in it as a key feature.

According to their press release on Kotaku:

Quote:
The introduction of the new PS3 has been determined following user feedback from thousands of existing PS3 owners as well as research into future potential PS3 owners. The new model features two USB 2.0 ports rather than four and no longer includes the multi memory card port.

The new model is no longer backwards compatible with PlayStation®2 titles, reflecting both the reduced emphasis placed on this feature amongst later purchasers of PS3, as well as the availability of a more extensive line-up of PS3 specific titles (a total of 65 titles across all genres by Christmas).

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Dr._J wrote:
Did they provide a reason as to why they removed the BC?

It's a definitively last-gen feature. Just like rumble.

Quote:
The introduction of the new PS3 has been determined following user feedback from thousands of existing PS3 owners as well as research into future potential PS3 owners. The new model features two USB 2.0 ports rather than four and no longer includes the multi memory card port.

Dear Sony,

I love my PS3 with mouth but there are too many USB ports. I get confused sometimes. Could you please remove some? Also, the multi memory card port makes me sad because it reminds me of my PS2. When I had my PS2, grandpa was still alive. ;_; Please take it away and also backward compatibility because I miss grandpa a lot.

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Wow, that is pretty crappy. I fully understand the financial reason behind removing hardware BC (since it cuts $20 or $30 off the manufacturing cost), but all this is about is creating an artificial reason for people to buy the more expensive SKU once the cheaper one arrives. That, or maybe they plan to eventually drop software BC from the more expensive model too. But whatever the case may be, I can imagine no reason why the software BC wouldn't work on this new model, and thus common sense would dictate that it is a half assed attempt to justify the price stratification.

All I know for sure is that I'm glad that I was able get a PS3 with the hardware BC. Combined with the PS2 upscaling, it has made playing older games visually bearable on my HDTV, which much of the time it was not on the old PS2 even through a component video cable. It frustrates me, though, that bascially there is one less reason why I could recommend a PS3 to a friend, since the experience they will get out of their PS3 playing PS2 games will be either inferior to mine (with software BC), or simply not possible.

Ugh.

Well anyway, if anyone is thinking of getting a PS3 any time soon, I would really recommend hunting down the 60 GB/hardware BC model before they disappear from the market.

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Quote:
I wonder if the 60gb price is going to fall.

In Europe:
SCEE wrote:
The existing Starter Pack*, comprising a 60GB PS3 with extensive backwards compatibility, an additional SIXAXIS wireless controller and two first party titles will be reduced in price to €499. Remaining on sale while stocks last, the 60GB model represents outstanding value for the keen gamer wishing to upgrade to the High Definition capabilities of PS3.

So anyone, who wants some sort of BC, even if it's just software, needs to get the 60GB probably sooner rather than later.

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Location: Racine, WI

Wow.

Way to cripple the machine for those who refused to pay $600. "People who want those features HAVE one already"? Seriously? I know *I* wanted those features, but didn't want to pay "Early adopter" prices... and judging by the other comments, a lot of people were in the same boat. Who did they "research" this with?

As much as I try to give Sony the benefit of the doubt, they never cease to continue to screw us over. Still, I guess we get what we deserve. People complained about the price as the #1 knock against the system, so I suppose we have to lose features if we want that lower price. Tough call, in the end, but I guess they did what they felt they had to do.

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Apparently PS1 emulation is still included - just not PS2.

Irongut wrote:
I think they said that users interested in backward compatibility have already purchased the console. New users aren't interested in it as a key feature.

As BC is achieved through software emulation, it costs them almost literally nothing to include it a PS3. If even 1% of the potential purchasers find it valuable, it would make financial sense to include it.

There's something here they're not telling us. I'm guessing that they've surreptitiously downgraded the PS3 guts as part of the cost-cutting effort, and now it can't handle full PS2 software emulation. Either that, or, they've decided to actively kill off PS2 support to get developers to switch to the PS3. Idiotic, but, you know... Sony.

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KillerTomato wrote:
Either that, or, they've decided to actively kill off PS2 support to get developers to switch to the PS3. Idiotic, but, you know... Sony.

They have to do it sooner or later. The fact that Microsoft destroyed xbox development the day of the 360 launch is much more of a slap in the face. Even the GameCube got one last Zelda.

It's understandable to not want to kill the PS2 since it still outsells anything the company makes... but it IS that continued PS2 development that diverts their focus and gives consumers reasons to stay with the older model.

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WTF?! Following user feedback? Are you kidding me?

How can they take out BC completely from that model? Damn it. A $400 PS3 looked so good until this. I guess I'll never get a PS3 until 2009.

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Quote:
People complained about the price as the #1 knock against the system, so I suppose we have to lose features if we want that lower price.

But I'm not sure that's the case, unless this means that they aren't going to bother continuing to update the software BC going forward. If they are going to just leave it as is on the existing systems, then yes, it's a cost cutting feature drop. However, if they are going to keep dev teams working on maintaining and updating the existing software BC, they are saving no money by leaving it off the new, cheaper unit. All they are doing is creating an artificial feature difference between their models.

Well, that or their software BC wasn't actually 100% a software solution, and there is some additional hardware component that they get to leave out of the unit by dropping the software BC from the feature list.

Oh, and for whatever it's worth, on the post purchase survey I filled out I listed BC as one the top feature that compelled my purchase of the machine. So I tried to help you out, Matt.

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subaltern's picture
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Irongut wrote:
I think they said that users interested in backward compatibility have already purchased the console. New users aren't interested in it as a key feature.

What about all the younger gamers who can't afford a PS3 the day it comes out, or the people who are waiting for a price cut? I suppose these people don't care about backwards compatibility? I think this was a bad move on Sony's part, but should I be surprised?

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SommerMatt wrote:
KillerTomato wrote:
Either that, or, they've decided to actively kill off PS2 support to get developers to switch to the PS3. Idiotic, but, you know... Sony.

They have to do it sooner or later. The fact that Microsoft destroyed xbox development the day of the 360 launch is much more of a slap in the face. Even the GameCube got one last Zelda.

It's understandable to not want to kill the PS2 since it still outsells anything the company makes... but it IS that continued PS2 development that diverts their focus and gives consumers reasons to stay with the older model.

Absolutely, but, if they end up killing off PS2 support and the developers jump ship to the 360 instead of the PS3, they've now killed the seemingly never-ending cash cow that is PS2 game licensing revenue and replaced it with a much smaller source of income. The strategy could work, but it's awfully risky and could actually work against them if the cost-averse section of the market they're going after turns a cold shoulder to the machine they can't play all their old PS2 games on.

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The anger has gone from me, now it's just complete bafflement. If they put backwards compatibility in, then all those people who own only the PS3 would actually have some good games to play on it.

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zeroKFE wrote:
Oh, and for whatever it's worth, on the post purchase survey I filled out I listed BC as one the top feature that compelled my purchase of the machine. So I tried to help you out, Matt.

Is that how they determined this? I mean, realistically, I never play with more than 2 people, so 4 ports ARE really too many for me... but I do understand that 4>2. I guess they figure people with a PS3 already have a PS2... the software library of the PS3 is still too weak to be cutting this out, IMHO, but if most people are wanting the HD experience and don't care about BC, I guess there's nothing I can say about it.

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subaltern wrote:
I remember someone from Sony saying that consumers didn't want backwards compatibility. That's very hard to believe since everyone in the world has a PS2.

Peter Moore said the same thing when people complained about the 360 backwards compatibility. The thing is that a lot of people do have a PS2 and those that want a cheap PS3 probably don't care if they leave their PS2 hooked up. Don't get me wrong, I think removing the feature sucks but people aren't buying PS3s to play PS2 games just like no one bought a 360 to play Xbox 1 games. It's a value-add feature.

KillerTomato wrote:
As BC is achieved through software emulation, it costs them almost literally nothing to include it a PS3. If even 1% of the potential purchasers find it valuable, it would make financial sense to include it.

I've no doubt it costs a lot of money to pay high-end developers to maintain the software emulation layer. The people who do that have to be high-level programmers as they have to have very in-depth knowledge of both platform's hardware to do accurate emulation code. If they were removing this from the higher end models as well, I'd say it was really ridiculous. But the people who are buying the 40GB PS3 are doing so because they want a cheap PS3, not a PS2. If they wanted a PS2, they could buy one for a lot cheaper than even the lowest-end PS3. From a PR point of view, this is another stupid misstep by Sony but from the point of view of the people who will be buying this unit (and those people will largely not be of our demographic), it doesn't matter much.

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KillerTomato wrote:
Apparently PS1 emulation is still included - just not PS2.

Ah, I missed that part. Then it must be as KillerTomato and I guessed -- the software BC for PS2 was never actually purely a software solution, just a solution that let them dump out some (but not all) of the hardware components required for pure hardware based emulation. Now, to cut costs further, they are removing whatever hardware pieces remained, and thus their "software" solution no longer will work. The PS1 support remains, though, because that was possible purely in software.

Damn, that is rough. As Bill Harris is suggesting over on his blog, though, they need to get that price down any way they can. Stretching the truth about drop in demand for BC must seem like a small price to pay in order to get down to a price point where their system won't get washed out of the market by the competition.

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I was starting to come around. Next time I get the urge, I'll buy a PS2.

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PS: Maybe the "feedback" was a long string of comments saying that the PS3 is too damn expensive. In that case, I guess they're finding ways to cut down on mfg. costs.

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LobsterMobster wrote:
When I had my PS2, grandpa was still alive. ;_; Please take it away and also backward compatibility because I miss grandpa a lot.

Love,
Consumers

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They're probably gonna hook me.... I'll end up buying a 60 gig to futureproof my ability to participate happily in gaming conversations...

I'm being manipulated... I just know it.

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Parallax Abstraction wrote:
Peter Moore said the same thing when people complained about the 360 backwards compatibility. The thing is that a lot of people do have a PS2 and those that want a cheap PS3 probably don't care if they leave their PS2 hooked up. Don't get me wrong, I think removing the feature sucks but people aren't buying PS3s to play PS2 games just like no one bought a 360 to play Xbox 1 games. It's a value-add feature.

I completely understand that. In this case, Sony better repair my PS2 until the day I die. I have a lot of games to play.

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wordsmythe wrote:
PS: Maybe the "feedback" was a long string of comments saying that the PS3 is too damn expensive. In that case, I guess they're finding ways to cut down on mfg. costs.

seriously, I'm guessing this WAS the #1 comment.

I wish they'd just settle on one SKU and let people buy whatever else they want. Why offer a larger hard drive model, when they're nice enough to allow you to use ANY hard drive you wish? The Wii has it covered... no one else wants motion sensing. Get back to the damn rumble ASAP, end the confusion, and just start doing what you do best.

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KillerTomato wrote:

Absolutely, but, if they end up killing off PS2 support and the developers jump ship to the 360 instead of the PS3, they've now killed the seemingly never-ending cash cow that is PS2 game licensing revenue and replaced it with a much smaller source of income. The strategy could work, but it's awfully risky and could actually work against them if the cost-averse section of the market they're going after turns a cold shoulder to the machine they can't play all their old PS2 games on.

Exactly. Sony may hate it, but the PS2 is still kicking ass after all this time. And to many consumers out there a PS3 looks like a machine that is future proof. It plays PS3 games AND it plays the games they know will keep coming out for the PS2. Imagine if this had been done a year ago. If you'd sold your PS2 and you wanted to go back and play PS2 games not only would you not benefit from the upscaling and you'd miss out on a ton of great games if you just said no to going back and buying a slim or something.

This year alone has seen Odin Sphere, God of War II, Final Fantasy XII, Persona 3 and Rogue Galaxy just to tick off the games that come to mind as being popular/highly rated. That's arguably a stronger lineup than the PS3 has.

Perversely, this all makes for a solid reason to consider getting a PS3 soon.

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DSGamer wrote:
LobsterMobster wrote:
When I had my PS2, grandpa was still alive. ;_; Please take it away and also backward compatibility because I miss grandpa a lot.

Love,
Consumers

This is my post of the month. Awesome!!!

Thank you, thank you, I'll be here all week.

I can understand Sony wanting to put focus on the PS3, but you'd think they'd at least wait until the PS3 had some games worth buying before cutting out the BC. Now people will have NOTHING to play.

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The general consensus on the interwebs is that BC was comprised of two pieces: the Emotion Engine (CPU) and PS2 graphics chip. The EE was removed in the first revision and replaced with software emulation. The new sku (reportedly) removes the graphics chip as well and pretty much dead-ends any chance of emulation.

I've been looking around for confirmation on the above but have yet to come across anything that would back it up. Does make sense though.

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KillerTomato wrote:

As BC is achieved through software emulation, it costs them almost literally nothing to include it a PS3. If even 1% of the potential purchasers find it valuable, it would make financial sense to include it.

Zero hardware cost does not mean zero cost. If anything, supporting software like this is even more expensive.

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My head is starting to really hurt from the number of times Sony has "revised" the PS3. It's almost like they want to piss everyone off who bought their console when it was first released, and also like they want to punish the ones who didn't. How many average consumers give a damn about the size of the hard drive in these consoles anyway?

I miss the era of one version of a console with a revised version coming out near the end of it's life cycle and then the only revision was that it was smaller.