I'm a level 70 protection warrior with a bunch of thoughts:

The hardest person in any group for me to keep aggro off is my wife, who is a fire mage who pumps out the damage and doesn't care about aggro. The second hardest person is the healer.

A big part of the reason is because my wife and I duo most of the time and when it is just the two of us I am concerned with counteracting the threat she's generating on the single-target we're burning down first. When we get in a group, especially when we first start and instance, I just plain don't think of healing aggro. The first couple of pulls if I'm not on my feet are bad bad bad.

Multi-mob tanking is not the way tanks play when soloing. I think there's a good chance that the tank in that bad pug and maybe some other groups you've been in haven't been aware of or just haven't been thinking about healing aggro, and therefore aren't multi-mob tanking. It's very easy as a tank to focus on keeping the skull off the dps and forgetting about the other mobs.

Some things to watch out for are: Purple rings around the mobs' feet to indicate thunderclap. This is the bread and butter skill for MTs to use to deal with heal aggro since at the very least everyone is getting touched by the tank. The other is to check out the number of sunders on the mobs. It stacks up to 5, and the icon is like a silver sausage with a blast in the middle. Your tanks should be sundering all mobs around them, and if they aren't then they are not tanking multiple mobs.

PW:Shield does not affect rage generation, and if done before the tank is in combat does not generate aggro for you. Renew also does not cause you aggro if you apply it before a fight and it will help temper the spikiness.

A lot of people get nervous when their health bar drops. I am lucky enough to not deal with many PUG healers and I trust my guildmates, but one thing I've noticed is that I'm often below 50% before getting heals during trash fights and that suits me fine. Your big heals are going to be the most mana efficient, and while they spike aggro pretty dramatically, by the time a tank is down that far the first mob should be dead and the second well on their way. Hopefully any more than 2 are CC'd but if not the tank should have had enough time to spread it around.

Consider is getting a threat meter, like KTM or Omen. It's really only useful if the tank has it too so you can get a really good idea of how much threat you're generating compared to the tank, but it might help on occasion.

You probably already know, but where you are positioned in the fight affects your aggro generation. Being in melee generates more rage than being far away.

I think most of us who do forget about heal aggro end up remembering when the priest gets aggro, but some just probably don't understand the mechanic. TBC has been out for a long time now, and persistence goes a long way in this game. There isn't a lot of practice in the lowbie instances any more because there just aren't as many people to run Gnomer with and I'll bet there are lots of tanks out there whose first real grouping experience is in an Outland instance. At this point, it probably isn't even Ramparts, it's probably like Mana Tombs or some other mid-60s instance where understanding your primary group role is actually important.

This is so wrong it's not funny. PW:S does affect rage generation; If you're not taking damage, you're not generating rage. There are other methods, but one of the major complainsts I've heard from overgeared warriors is that if they don't get hit, there's not enough rage to tank with. Starting the fight with shield up is going to starve most warriors for rage generated through getting hit, which as I understand it, is a major source for tanks.

All in all, you've got the right idea, Aes. I'd suggest downranking some more, espescially if you're finding that you overheal a lot. I'd suggest a damage meter to help you track that. Also, Renews aren't bad, especially if you can put up decent numbers off of it. All in all, I think you just need to find a method you're comfortable with.

I have KTM. Lately, no one else in the pugs has it, though. For a while, it seemed most did, even in pugs, but not since I moved over to Zang and Tero.

I don't have Prayer of Mending yet. I do use Renew often, though. Flash tends to be my, got-to-save-the-rogue spell.. when he or she ends up tanking.

I have been hesitant to wait long in PUGs, not so much because the tank panics (except for Paladins.. I can't tell you how many times I let a paladin go below 50% health and start a big heal only to see them lay hands or start self healing -chuckle-)... I hesitate to let them go low because I am not sure how strong a tank they are. In big pull situations, where agro is the biggest problem, they are often dropping so fast, I have to anticipate the heals rather than wait and react.

I know I am not over healing.. the only place I know I possibly overheal on is the big Lobster in SP. But that DoT that only goes away at max health is one pain in the backside.

If I am in Melee, it's because I am tanking

Still, a lot of good suggestions and confirmations there. A few things I will do in the future is watching out for those indicators from the tank (thunderclap and sunders) and I will try to rely on Greater Healing on lower health and Renew (and later mending) more than I am now.

Thanks! I love the class/role and would like to understand it as well as I do my Prot Paladin, especially as it relates to group dynamics and functionality.

CC for the most part is spot on.

One thing that stuck out to me is the fact that you mentioned warriors specifically. Chances are good if you're having problems with them, it's because they're not prot., or as CC said, they've never tanked before.

Multi-mob tanking is a bitch for warriors, if you don't know that you need to "tag" every target in play, you'd just assume they'd keep attacking you. And the reason so many warriors don't have prot is because it is a pain in the ass to level. You do very little damage and you kill very slowly. Compare this to pally tanks who can solo 20 mobs at once. Prior to 70, most warriors don't have the luxury of being able to respec back and forth.

Yeah, a few things to add in my two sense in about.
1. AoE tanking is not a warrior's friend. They only have a few abilities and need to get them off right away if they are going to be keeping aggro. The good ones can do it, but unfortunately alot of them don't spec prot until 70, which I think is pretty pathetic. If you want to tank, you gotta learn the skills in tanking, not just "get to 70 and then I'll learn all the abilities I should have been using". Of course, no offense to our guildies out there, who keep up posts and ask about tanking, and atleast make an attempt to understand how to do it, without guns-a-blazing.

2. If a warrior is tanking in the 5mans, they should be prot, since that's where all their threat is built up in defensive stance, which should also be used. If they are tanking with a 2 hander, or two weapons, leave the group immediately. That doesn't fly in TBC. If a warrior plans on tanking more than 1 mob at a time, make sure they know what they are doing. If it's a pally or druid tanking, this should be much less of an issue. Both those classes have better AoE threat generation.

3. That 5pt threat reduction skill I don't think you really need. Juturna had it, and now she doesn't and her threat is in no way an issue, never was. Even mobs that are just getting hit by lvl 1 consecrate (~40 tps), don't go for her unless I'm dead. Although, that's not a warrior tanking.

Ah, my friend, you clearly have had too much Krindle and too little reality in your life. You may be right about leveling warrior, but you are wrong about how easy it is for Prot Paladins. Believe me, pulling 20 mobs is still not in Sun's repertoire, and he's a decently equipped pre-Kara 70. In fact, I believe the best I can do is pull about 10 with Valleja around to nuke them down as I hold them off. If I had to do it alone, it would not be so pretty.

I agree on the tanking skills and speccing side of things, though. It's probably what makes it feel like I am traveling with people who bought their accounts of eBay somedays.

Unfortunatley, Blyvie is gone over the next few days so I am probably stuck with PUG tanks for a while.

Again, thanks for the input... I will certainly keep it all in mind.

I was actually thinking the same thing, Krin. I have seen warriors in action. While they don't have some of the tricks we do as paladins, they push out a lot more single target DPS than we do (from what I saw) so killing them off one-at-a-time in batches should be easier. They do run more risk than we do, though, because they don't quite have quite as many tools to pull their fat out of the fire if things get out of hand.

I would expect, too, that even pre-Kara, Krin was better than average.

I'm currently leveling a protection warrior and it is the most painful solo experience of my WoW career. I do decent single target dps when I'm specced as arms/fury, but prot kills my dps.

When I'm tanking for you Shade, I roll through each target and get a revenge or sunder on them. One complication, is when the dps isn't focusing on one target. I have to go through every mob and hit them with something to keep the heal aggro in check, but then dps hits 3 different mobs and they all pull off of the tank. When there are only two mobs, it's not bad, but with three, it takes a few seconds to get aggro on all of them. So, when you start fighting that as well, it just throws everything into confusion. It's why I finally just let Leaping OT the first mob because I can't keep aggro off of him and gather up all the mobs. I've got a lot figured out in the last five levels, and I can see how this experience will be very helpful when getting into the higher stuff.

One other thing, if you ever AoE fear in an instance, everyone will be yelling at you, or at least they should. Watch the mobs go aggro the rest of the instance and have fun running back to the instance door. I understand when soloing, warriors can use this, but when soloing, pallys can use your bubble as well. You just mentioned in a group it was suicide, so I couldn't figure out what the point was exactly, grouping or solo. Thunderclap is an initial contact aggro device, but if you don't hit them all with a sunder or revenge as well, you're going to lose them.

EDIT: And by the way Shade, you're probably going to be 67 or 68 by the time I get back in 3 days, so I probably won't be able to keep the aggro off of you then either.

I know the bubble basically kills the aggro you have. I think I understand the frame of reference you were using in your comment now.

I've never heard a good thing about AoE fear in an instance, but that is mostly from a PUG standpoint. I guess it also comes down to knowing when you can use it. I've been in too many groups where someone draws aggro and instead of making a calm decision, they panic and AoE fear, or keep running away from the tank that is chasing after them to get the mob back, but they won't stop running away. As in everything with this game, the tricky part is knowing when you can do things and when you should do them. There are definitely people that know and who do things with good reason. My immediate reaction if I know someone and have respect for how they play is much different from being in a PUG or partial PUG and having them do some of those things.

I haven't done any heroics or the even the 65+ instances yet, so haven't really had AoE fear as a "supposed to be used" skill. I do like talking about the different ways to do things and understanding about other classes. These discussions generally turn up something that cause me to think about things in a different manner and that's always good.

I completely agree with you. Fears should be planned, and the primary reason Warlocks are great for heroics is that they are able to CC atleast 1 mob (any really with chain fear), banish an elemental or demon as a secondary CC and still DPS during all that with DoTs.

Basically when you get down to the toughest instances, you start to look at every option you have available, and determine yes/no if it could be used. Bubble, even while tanking has shown a use in Moroes to wipe the 5min Garrote off. But you have to know to use it when he disappears, and to cancel it as soon as you pop it (so aggro comes back immediately after). Leaving bubble on, he could hit a healer, then stay on them, so you definitely want to make sure you use it right.

But you're going to have to come back down to the instances you've already beat to death since you're running them like a madman.

Uh, 65. I'm having enough trouble keeping up without you taking away levels. And of course it's fun with the GWJers. I've had a great time on every run with guildies and look forward to the next one. Of course, I've only been in UB once and haven't touched the Slave Pens. Many good times to be had in the future.

I know this is going to sound counterintuitive, but it's worked for my priest, and a friend of mine from Staghelm who was one of the best priests I ever partied with.

In 5-mans, you should primarily use big heals for your tank.

What I usually do -- and I discuss this with the group before we step into the instance -- is open with a renew, then wait 'til a greater heal is necessary, do that, fade if needed (usually not needed with a good tank), then greater heal and fade, lather, rinse, repeat. Toss a renew on other players if they're taking damage. I will NOT waste mana healing a DPSer, and I am ruthless about that point. If the tank is competent and a DPSer is taking aggro from the tank, they'll learn quickly enough.

It's counterintuitive because it seems that smaller heals would be better because of less aggro. Bigger heals work better with a competent group because a) the tank has more time to build up aggro on multiple targets, and b) if you *do* get aggro, Fade is a 100% aggro wipe, and the tank once again has lots of time to build up aggro on multiple targets.

Of course there are exceptions, bad pulls, warrior has trouble getting rage and can't pull a mob off a DPSer, whatever. Just keep your eyes open for cases like that. If the group has their roles down, this approach tends to work well. If they don't... well, I usually don't waste time with groups like that. The most important thing is to communicate. Discuss it before you enter the dungeon, repeat it if necessary. Make sure everyone knows how you heal.

It sounds from your initial message like you're having difficulty with tanks who can't keep groups glued to them, and that's an experience thing. As someone else mentioned, tanking is very different from the normal kind of fighting you do while leveling, so the VAST majority of warriors don't have a clue how to do it. Also I'll repeat the warning signs: if your tank isn't using a 1H weapon and shield, if you don't see any sunders ever, and if your tank never switches targets, it's time to either get another tank, or leave the group. If you don't, you'll just be miserable, and life is too short to waste time with bad PUGs!

Forgive me for trying to help. Clearly because I misspoke about one detail, my entire approach is wrong and should be avoided at all costs.

I was waiting for you guys to catch-up to my abilities. And I hit 64 tonight!

Most healing aggro problems are caused by 1. Overhealing or 2. Bad tank/group. If you're not overhealing, then it's not your fault.