Your experiences of PvE Vs PVP?
Wednesday, August 29th, 2007 - 10:19pm
Just got back into WoW.
Today I was reminded, again, of 'thrills' of ganking. A trio of ?? Alliance players killing me and laughing near Hillsbrad.
I just wondered if anyone with PvP and PvE server experience could tell me what they think the differences are. There's one obvious one, but I'm talking about subtle things.
Perhaps you felt less stressed, maybe the world seemed open to exploration. Did you actually find exploring less fun, since there was less danger when travelling so less sense of reward?
I do like the thrill of a PvP server, but I'm not sure I like the uneven odds. I wonder if I'd get them in BGs.
FWIW, I've attacked players when they've got aggro or when they're weakened, but they've always been yellow or green to me. Never a grey.
And I've never ganked - in the true sense of the word - unless I spotted someone that attacked me previously.
PvE vs PvP, huh?
Personally, I haven't had much experience with PvP realms. I'm not a fan of ganking others, unless they're crazy enough to run around tagged. Even then, it's usually a one shot deal. As in, I one shot them and press on with life.
The reason I don't have much experience with the PvP realms is folks who are the opposite of that. I don't recall my highest level on a PvP realm, but it's usually right around the point where I get corpse-camped the first time. I go back to PvE at that point.
As for PvE, I've done plenty of that. Overall, I find the atmosphere friendlier in cities, folks are more willing to lend a hand if they can, stuff like that. It could be different on the EU servers though, so take that with a grain of salt.
All in all, it's more enjoyable. I can go along, do what I need to do and not worry about losing time to someone that's bored and is dead set on ruining my chance at leveling or farming or what have you. I don't think that the PvP realm experience could be further from what I'm after in an MMO.
Coldstream wrote:
PvP all the way. So much fun having that kind of risk there. Think of it like BioShock/System Shock 2 paranoia of always looking behind your shoulder.
XBox Live|Tshirts|xfire | Last.fm
Thats how I like it too, but there's no Pause button in mmogs and I get too many real life interruptions. For PvP, my best memories are from Ultima Online. DAoC and WoW battlegrounds weren't as exciting or spontaneous.
I'm still waiting to get inside something, so for the moment, it's been very much "poke around the ravine." - rabbit
The thing about PvE realms is that you can switch it into a PvP realm and back at your leisure, by typing /PVP . INSTANT DANGER !
When you're on a PvP realm, however, you're stuck with the PvP switch permanently flipped on.
The faithful of my (alliance) guild migrated from a PvP server to a PvE server 6 months ago after a guild falling out. We are a casual raiding guild, most of us in our 30s (age, not level), and so the PvP realm didn't have much for us at that point. We can only play for a few hours in the evenings, and we generally want them to be as productive as possible. We all levelled our characters on the pvp server, and went through the pain of STV, getting to Scarlet Monastery and getting whacked by a stray 60, replacements during a raid getting ganked by a whole guild outside MC, all the usual stuff. I created my character on the second day the game came out in the EU, and at that time (pre-Battlegrounds) the pve realms seemed a bit antiseptic. I didn't want no pvp at all, and so the pvp realm seemed the way to go. But now I can pvp in a balanced battleground or arena context, and since I have never ganked, I found the pvp server to have lots of downsides and no upsides. I'm a mage, so if anything gets the drop on me I'm boned anyway. Maybe if I was a pally or something more durable it wouldn't be as pointless.
Since the pve raiding is what the game is all about for me, world pvp doesn't have any attraction for me any more.
Now I'm levelling a few alts, it is all a lot less stressful. I never understood why people like ganking anyway. Where's the challenge in it? I guess there are a few people that actually wait for a fair fight, but generally I got attacked whilst fighting a monster and low on health by a horde character higher level than me.
It will do good to heart and head
When your soul is in my soul's stead;
And I will friend you, if I may,
In the dark and cloudy day.
- AE Houseman, trailblazing XBL user
XBox Live
I've always played as Horde, so my experience is the complete opposite to yours. But I have heard stories, from ex-Alliance players, that the Horde are the less likely to gank.
Certainly on the two servers on which I've played, Allies own STV and gank there regularly.
I'm at an odd stage in the game. Bought it on launch and played for a while, but became disenchanted. Joined again, left again. Now I'm back after a year away.
My highest character is 43. I've never been in an organised guild (or rather, been the right level to participate in an organised guild). I'm still trying to figure out what I want, I suppose.
Anyway, I think attacking people while they've got a mob is part of the game. I don't enjoy it happening to me, but I do do it to other people. The only things I really hate are ganking - in the 'group attack' sense - grey players being killed, and camping.
HatchetJob.com - a netcast about more than videogames.
Oh, I didn't intend to make any comment at all about Alliance vs Horde behaviour, I had assumed that if I'd been horde I would have been ganked just as much. I've never been convinced of significant demographic distinction between Alliance and Horde, and I reckon there are saints and gits on both factions on all servers.
Since that side of it is something you enjoy, 1Dgaf, I imagine you would be happier staying on a pvp server.
It will do good to heart and head
When your soul is in my soul's stead;
And I will friend you, if I may,
In the dark and cloudy day.
- AE Houseman, trailblazing XBL user
XBox Live
I think Horde players think of Alliance players as kids that just want to be Legolas. That there's some kind of defecit of imagination there. And that if kids are playing, they'll be annoying.
Of course these are all generalisations, which is what makes them so fun.
What I should have said, Dud, is that before I attack anyone I think about whether I should. First, whether I will be able to kill them. Second, whether I should attack them at all.
And it's that hesitation that makes me wonder whether PvP is right for me. Because often I'll hang back.
HatchetJob.com - a netcast about more than videogames.
I do remember a long string of very bad night elf hunters ruining otherwise serviceable PuG instance runs. The one guy I know who plays horde tells me there are lots of emo death-obsessed wannabee vampires playing undead. But he is on a RP server.
Hmm, perhaps you are too honourable to be allowed to play on a pvp server. I think by the time you'd decided whether to attack or not, real pvp fanatics would have already ganked them, eaten their half-time kit-kats and Sunny D and settled down for a 4 hour corpse camping session.
It will do good to heart and head
When your soul is in my soul's stead;
And I will friend you, if I may,
In the dark and cloudy day.
- AE Houseman, trailblazing XBL user
XBox Live
Maybe it's because I play Guild Wars, but I absolutely hate PvP. It's entirely unforgiving. There's a handful of good "builds" out there, and if you play one that isn't one of the very best, or god forbid you try something NEW, you get your ass handed to you.
NOTE: This is not a doodle bug.
Spore
I only played a bit on a PvP server when my brother came back from the army and told me he'd been playing a cool game called World of Warcraft. He was on a pvp server so i leveled a bit on it just to keep in better touch. Our way of looking at it with a Horde vs. Alliance POV was more a RP thing and didn't consider it ganking. We were Horde and if we saw Alliance regardless of lvl they were attacked. We didn't camp their corpse if they were lower levels but there were many times when we'd be counter attacked and of course many time when we were also dropped. Just part of it all. I actually REALLY miss it. Still the guild he was in fell away and he decided to transfer to Blackhand.
Gamer Tag: Rantyr
This may be partly true in a 1v1 duel type of situation, but all builds are viable in open PvP enviroment. The main thing about winning at PvP is knowing your role and team work.
Gamer Tag: Rantyr
For fun, I have a L2 Night Elf hunter named Legoolas in a Camelot themed guild. Just for purposes of posting in the forums and playing up the stereotype.
This year, while waiting for the release of GW EOTN, I decided to level some characters in WoW so I could play with some WoW oriented friends of mine. I had two groups of friends - one on a PvP server and one on a PvE server. So I was basically levelling PvP and PvE charatacters at the same time.
PvP servers are a mixed bag. I was rarely ganked more than once, and until I hit Outlands (where most of the population is) usually not more than once every week or two. But, that's probably because I did most of my solo-grinding on the PvP server in the early morning, when most of the young gankers were sleeping. And I would play strategically. I would stay away from roads, and try to keep a wall of monsters between me and likely sources of wandering Horde. On a technical level, I tried to play at home, on a fast system using hard wired ethernet so I could react quickly to a gank attempt. I also tend to think in terms of what classes I want to play on a PvP versus a PvE server.
On the PvE server, I've been more relaxed. I'll play on a crappy laptop over a wireless connection because I know I won't be bothered. I'd play pretty much at any time of day, and just do my thing.
If you don't mind the occasional gank, PvP servers can add an element of spice. The low and mid level areas of the PvP servers seemed more active (due to fights breaking out), and I have had fun times turning the tables on an attempted ganker. But, I've also been ganked while I was trying to wrap up and log off, which can be a bit annoying.
I probably wouldn't have chosen a PvP server but for having friends on one, but it's certainly a different experience. I don't usually spend a lot of time ganking, 99% of the time I just live and let live. If I'm attacked I'll either run or fight depending on whether I have a reasonable shot (and whether they attacked me while I was killing something and weakened). On occasion have even worked with a Horde character or two on clearing an area. Playing on a PvP server just introduces a constant element of potential surprise.
On a PvP server, you at least have the option to attack someone. On a PvE server, folks generally just do their own thing. Yeah, you can set your own flag, but I have yet to see world PvP happening on my PvE server (my PvE character is L48, my PvP character is L70).
Your Quote Here!
world PvP hasn't been happening on a large scale since they started up the BG's and Honor Points.
Gamer Tag: Rantyr
PvP servers allow others to waste my time. PvE lets ME decide how I am going to spend the evening playing WoW. That's the long and short of it.
-Bad Mojo
And man that dog looks like he's having a good time, but that monkey is f*cking into it. This isn't his recreation; this is his life and he knows it in a way I will never know anything. --Danjo Olivaw
I wish I liked PvP more... unfortunately, I find that the idea of PvP is so much cooler than the actual application of it, much like the idea of some fine chick I've been chasing, but is really only driving me into a destructive feedback loop from which there is no possible escape.
PvE on the other hand is ridiculous on too many levels in its current state for me to really enjoy. There seems to be, in most games, a lack of real story and an emphasis on camping/power leveling/and the generally retarded social aspect of PvE which becomes something of a bore after the magic of seeing the new game world wears off (this usually takes a month for me).
This whole 'end game' mythos that people like to chat heavily about in deciding whether to play a game and how much to invest in a game often seems so hollow and trite to my thinking. End game -- should an MMORPG really end? Is there truly this idea that there is more than one real experience in an MMORPG, the er... regular game and the end game? Seems silly to me. The only MMORPG I've played to date that really didn't have anything resembling an 'end game' would have been UO, which is why I suppose it is remembered (or still played) so wistfully by a few people.
Well, Cooking Mama didn't help me become a better cook, and Trauma Center certainly didn't help me become a better surgeon. I have the proof of both sitting in my freezer. -- imbiginjapan
I don't think there will ever be an endgame in WoW. That will only happen when they shut the servers down.
And that will only happen when Galaxy of Warcraft starts up and a new non-endgame game begins.
Dudley,
What server is your friend on?
HatchetJob.com - a netcast about more than videogames.
That's what I always say. PvP (or CvC as I prefer to call it) is just giving other people permission to waste your time.
"Raise high the black flags, my children."
-- Gebhard von Blucher.
C = child?
Meh, the quid pro quo is you get to be nasty if that is your desire. It's a different experience. Everyone's mileage will vary depending on their personal taste.
Your Quote Here!
You reach end game grind when you reach the max level. Even after expansions your looking at an average of 2 weeks to reach the new cap. You're left with nothing to do but improving the gear you wear and you can experiment by reaching content you've not had the chance to see before.
How is it hollow or trite when trying to manage your play time or figure out where to put your monthly subscription money? All current MMO's have a very definite end to them. It'd be nice if they were able to keep a never ending flow of content and story but the technology isn't there yet. Granted only a small percentage of people in games will see the end but it doesn't stop people from trying. You then have to decide if the mechanisms in the game will be entertaining enough or worth the money and time it'll take to get there.
Gamer Tag: Rantyr
End Game is just a nice short way to say "what there is to do at max level". MMOs tend to be full of goal oriented play. While levelling up you have a constant goal to increase that little number that designates your level and get more stats or abilities or whatever comes along with it. As these games typically have a finite number of levels they have to provide some other goal for players once they hit the level cap. Since ideally every player will eventually play long enough to get to that cap, there being an "end game" is insanely important. You don't want players to hit the cap and then quit. You want to keep them around forever so you have to keep providing them with goals (i.e. end game content). The problem most people seem to have with "end game" is that just about every game relies on raiding to provide these goals. *shrug(
As for PvP vs PvE I never really noticed much of a difference in WoW. World PvP is next to non-existant. The occasional gankings aren't even the tiniest bit painful in WoW. It is insanely easy to get away from wouldbe corpse campers even if they are higher level than you. There is no real loss for PvP death besides the minor annoyance of having to walk back. So I don't see there really being much to worry about. At least the potential to be occasionally attacked is there for some random amusement now and again I suppose.
I recently started playing Vanguard again as I have already cycled back through DAoC, AO, and EQ2 after deciding I absolutely loathed LOTRO. I play on Tharridon (which after today will be called sartok) which is the FFA PvP server. After starting again I joined a guild full of players who have pretty much the exact oposite mindset and playstyle that I do. I have never once in VG attacked someone without prior history. People who have jumped me when fighting mobs, altar camped me, whatever I will attack on sight. Everyone else I live and let live and only fight if I am attacked first. My guild however is a bunch of altar camping, ganking, and all around evil bastards in terms of how they play the game. What this means is that just about everyone on the server hates anyone with our guild tag. So I am constantly being hunted down and attacked by higher levels or lower levels from guilds who are actively at war with us. This definitely keeps the game interesting and I am actually having more fun than I have in years playing MMOs. This to me is amazing considering VG is pretty much one of the least interesting games to be released in years. So if PvP can make a game this sh*tty entertaining to me I can only dream of how much fun I would have in a game that didn't otherwise suck : /
I remember joining MDK guild in UO -- I'm the same way... I'm generally a hippy tree-hugging pachouli smelling pacifist, but I went and joined the most notorious guild on the Napa server.
Well, Cooking Mama didn't help me become a better cook, and Trauma Center certainly didn't help me become a better surgeon. I have the proof of both sitting in my freezer. -- imbiginjapan
Right. This is 1,229 words long, but it all came tumbling out. It's about something odd that just happened in the game. I think it's interesting and gives an insight into what can happen. I could have made it shorter, but couldn't stop typing once I'd started. And it's full of typos, quite apart from being badly structured.
I was questing near Booty Bay, working my way through gorillas three levels higher than me (I'm a 38 Tauren shaman).
The gorillas were next to a road and I'd been killed twice by an Alliance gnome. Naturally I was wary and constantly checked behind me as I fought them
After some time, a level 44 Draeni mage showed up. He was on his mount and there was a stand off as he jumped around and looked at me, while I put my totems down.
It was a little odd and tense, but things resolved themselves. I backed away, keeping my eye on him. Facing my character forward, but watching behind me, I started my quest again and he started to kill gorillas too. THere we were, aware of, but ignoring each other.
Which is when he pulled aggro.
He was out of mana and running. I ran towards him, targeted the gorillas and used my earth shock. They moved out of aggro range, then turned and ran. He was safe and I'd shown I was friendly.
He said something in Common; I assume it was 'Thanks'. We'd established an accord. He wasn't going to attack me and I'd leave him alone too.
We went on like this for a while. He took the gorillas down quickly (I was watching him, just in case...) while I took them down slowly. Everything was fine.
Then I recognised his guild name.
It was the guild of the people that ganked me in Tarren Mill. The people that made me start this thread. Same guild. Same race. On a mount and a caster.
Odds on, I'd just saved the guy that killed me twice and /laughed over my body. I'd had my chance to take him. He was out of mana and running. Instead, I stepped in and tried to save him. I'd missed my chance.
I continued with my quest, agonising over what to do. I didn't know whether I should wait for him to pull aggro again and then step in, or to leave him alone. Would an attack now be a betrayal? Would it be dishonourable?
He could have killed me earlier, but he didn't. He wanted to quest without trouble. But he and his friends had ganked me in Tarren Mill. I didn't know what to do. Not just as a player, but as a human.
As, and this sounds ridiculous, a man.
This guy had essentially bullied people in Tarren Mill. He'd killed people that had no chance against him; grey characters. He'd ruined their fun. And I couldn't forget that. I wasn't going to let him bully me again.
So, I resolved to attack him. On two conditions:
1. I must finish my quest. The drop rate for the item I needed was low and I didn't want to come back to the area. Having him there friendly was better than having him there angry and with friends.
2. He must be low on mana, if not low on health.
Which is when I pulled aggro.
And he stepped in to save me.
Now things were complicated. I was torn. I genuinely felt troubled about what to do, the right course of action. The balance between trying to get revenge and being honourable. Before, I had saved him. I didn't owe him anything. Now I did - he saved me. Did he recognise me from Tarren Mill? Even if he did, that didn't matter now. I had to do the right thing. I couldn't attack him.
So, we quested. Each to their own, each ignoring the other. This went on for some time, when a level 64 (or so) Troll priest (I think)showed up. He didn't see her. She attacked. I hesitated for a second. Should I leave her to it? He didn't stand a chance. It wasn't me fighting him. It was his battle, his problem. His comeuppance.
So I stood there. And told the priest he was friendly. I told her again and she left him alone.
Now I had saved his life. And I knew that I couldn't attack him. That would be a complete betrayl of whatever trust we had. THat wasn't something I was willing to do. I'd rather let him get away with it than betray my instincts, than become something I'm not.
He came over to me and my flame totem accidentally hit him. He sat and asked, in Common, 'Y Y Y Y'. It must have been the only thing he could get passed the filter. I apologised.
And so we continued to quest. Each in our spot. I got into trouble, he'd help me. He got into trouble, I'd help him. It didn't happen often, but it happened.
Once, when I pulled aggro, I even moved towards his position. I was relying on this man to save me; this man who'd made me think about switching servers. It had all got too complicated, too involved. I was writing my own plot to whatever was happening. I'm sure I was thinking about it more than he must have. He couldn't have realised the inner dialogue I'd had.
So, I got on with it. I killed gorilla after gorilla. I must have been there with him for half-an-hour at least when I got my drop. That one item that completed my quest.
I'd reached condition one. And I knew what I had to do.
I went up to him and roared. He 'cried' and then ran off to kill more gorillas. I followed him, helping him kill and roaring at the same time. Putting totems down and trying to get him to fight. He laughed. I persisted.
Eventually we ended up facing each other. I put down my anti-magic totem. And then the one I knew would start the fight, the searing totem. He knew what was coming. I'd given him warning. He was six levels above me with full health and full mana. Just as I wanted, as it should be. I attacked.
I think he took it easy on me, or at least hesitated. I managed to get him down to 1/4 health, but my death was almost inevitable. It didn't matter, though. I'd done what I needed to. I stood up to the bully without betraying him. I knew that, if this was a film, this is how it would end. It seemed right.
I resurrected and went back to find him. When I did, I tried to bow. After two attempts in which I bowed to gorllias, I managed to bow to him. Did he think I bowed three times? Who knows? He emoted that he patted me. I left, thinking I'd never see him again.
Back in Booty Bay, another Alliance character tried to kill me. The NPCs dealt with him. I made my way to the Wind Rider and met the Draeni again. Once more, I messed up my emotes. I waved and saluted to an NPC by mistake. I saluted again, again to an NPC. Finally I managed to salute the mage. I spoke to the windrider and flew off.
As I did, I noticed that the mage had laughed at me. I hope it was at my inability to salute and not the salute itself.
HatchetJob.com - a netcast about more than videogames.
It certainly sounds to me like you find this aspect of the game compelling. It is interesting to me that I almost never had any uncertainty at all when I was levelling on a pvp server. I had a few simple rules for similar level ganking:
(a) I never attack first
(b) If someone attacks me unfairly (e.g. during fighting a mob or when I'm very low on mana), then I reciprocate in kind exactly once per time they ganked me.
You may recognise this as the "Tit for Tat" strategy from Axelrod's interated Prisoner's Dilemma competition in Game Theory. I regard ganking as being a Prisoner's dilemma, so my strategy reflects that. Yes, I'm a tedious ultra-rationalist.
My friend is on Argent Dawn EU.
It will do good to heart and head
When your soul is in my soul's stead;
And I will friend you, if I may,
In the dark and cloudy day.
- AE Houseman, trailblazing XBL user
XBox Live
Good post. I liked the description of your thought process. The tension is something you don't get on a PvE server. It made PvP servers more interesting in a way, but not necessarily better. On a PvE server you can just ignore completely.
I chuckled during your post because it reminded me of times I was warily doing quests around the other side. Like you, my priority was generally to get my quest finished.
Sometimes a Horde player (I was Alliance) and I would work together like you did, sometimes we'd ignore each other, sometimes a fight would break out. But even though I rarely instigated, it added an element of uncertainty.
Your Quote Here!
Character vs. Character. People go on and on about skill, but the real determining factor is stats and random number generators. The greatest WoW players in the world have no chance to win if you give them a level 40 toon versus a level 70. That total lack of danger to high level toons is what makes world PvP so unappealing to me - there needs to be a chance for a lucky shot.
Plus, I hate roshambo games, and that's what a lot of high-level PvP comes down to.
"Raise high the black flags, my children."
-- Gebhard von Blucher.
Thank you so much. I'm glad I'm not alone in this whole 'strategy' belief that PvPers tout as the determining factor in combat when it simply isn't the case... ever. The only strategy in play in our MMORPG PvP games (by in large) is the Nathan B. Forrest quote (for those not in the know he was a cavalry general from the South), "Get there the fastest with the mostest."
Well, Cooking Mama didn't help me become a better cook, and Trauma Center certainly didn't help me become a better surgeon. I have the proof of both sitting in my freezer. -- imbiginjapan
I had an encounter that even if you are on a PvE server you can still gank Horde. I am on Feathermoon and I was in SMV killing the Fire Elementals there and ran across 2 Horde doing the same thing. We seemed to have an unspoken line that neither of us crossed and just waited for the mobs we had killed in our area to respawn. That is until they came into my lane. I had just sat down to drink ( I only required like 2 tics to full mana) and sent my pet at an elemental when I saw a shot go over my head and hit the mob before my pet could get there. It went grey and my pet took aggro. Did the Horde try to take it off my pet, no. Did they make any move to apologize or anything, no. So I reciprocated in kind.
I am a Hunter and as such I can be really mean with mob stealing if I want. I can handle 3-4 lvl 65 - 70 mobs easy. But what I did was just so wrong I actually felt bad afterwards. They were attacking the elementals around one of the Broken mobs with the Fire totems around him. He is part of a quest chain and you have to shoot the totems to get to him. Only problem is when you shoot one of the totems, 2-3 mini elementals spawn... I think you can see where this is going. I was at max range and they were in range of the totems. I shot all 4 totems and then feigned death to wipe my aggro and watched them try to fight the level 69 elementals that they were originally fighting along with the addition of the mini's and the broken mob. The fight did not last long. The 2 Horde were a Warlock and Hunter and they died horribly. I didn't run in and gloat or anything of that nature, I just mounted and flew to the Air elementals in the area to start farming those.
I am not a mean person but when you kill steal or node steal and you are on the other faction, expect to get harassed. If you are on the same faction expect to get whispered to death with hate spam. I don't do this because I am a skinner but I know a few people that blow up when they are mining a node and same faction player comes up and smacks the same node.
Fathgar - Feathermoon
wordsmythe - "Jesus would drive a Hummer and burn as much oil as possible, since the dinosaurs it's made out of seem to be confusing people.
That's where the skill comes in. Bing prepared. If you're unprepared or dont have whats needed you're going to loose that game of roshambo. It's not like a FPS where you have to hit what your aiming at. At least not yet.
Gamer Tag: Rantyr
I guess MMORPGs are where middle managers are truly rewarded for their administrative strategy 'skills' then? Awesomeness.
Well, Cooking Mama didn't help me become a better cook, and Trauma Center certainly didn't help me become a better surgeon. I have the proof of both sitting in my freezer. -- imbiginjapan