Dungeons & Dragons 4th Ed.

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scrub's picture
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The hubbub began yesterday when the D&D main page on Wizards went down with a countdown. They announced the 4th edition rules for release May 2008. Key is an MMO-like online component.

Great details here (as the main site is down):

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=welcome/conventions/gencon07

What do you GWJers think?

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Mordiceius's picture
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Interesting. It's exciting for those that can't have full day long sessions regularly (like the groups I'm in).

The guys in the videos... wow that was painful to listen to.

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Location: Netherlands

Initially I felt a burst of rage, probably because I just broke down last week and ordered a set of 3.5 books so I could run some friends through a campaign. Over the years, WotC has perfected the art of spreading "must have" information over a dozen different sourcebooks. And now that they've finally gotten me to open my wallet for suddenly soon-to-be-obsolete 3.5, they'll be introducing yet another new line of overpriced, content-light books. Joy.

But my mood has since improved. I couldn't make it through more than 30 seconds of those videos, so I won't be able to finalize my opinion until I get a full list of features to read about, but based on the few things listed on the website, the new edition sounds completely pointless (aside from the whole money-making thing, of course). And that makes me feel a lot better - I can ignore it completely without feeling like I'm missing anything.

For all my bitter whining, 3rd edition rules were a dramatic improvement on 2nd, so at least there was something worthwhile behind the price tag. 4th edition will have to offer a lot more than online tools to convince me to upgrade.

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ranalin's picture
Location: Knoxville, TN

This is the big difference with them becoming a Hasbro company. This is a total bs marketing move to get more money from the gamer. 3rd edition was needed, but the 4th so quick after the 3rd? Total BS.

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Quote:
3rd edition was needed, but the 4th so quick after the 3rd? Total BS.

I was talking to a friend of mine who used to run a gaming store and he thinks 4th edition is going to be a last ditch attempt to reinvigorate the brand and to reconnect with the gamers who moved from tabletop games to WoW and other digital diversions. 3rd edition was a much needed change to the rules but it also made D&D "vogue" again in the minds of gamers & geeks. Since 3rd Ed's introduction 7 years ago, though, the MMO games have taken over as the Dungeon Masters and players meet on Ventrillo rather than someone's kitchen table. WOTC's already tried once to bring them in (D&D Online) at a considerable loss but by moving the kitchen table atmosphere to an online application they may just keep D&D going.

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As someone who bought not only 3rd edition but the core 3.5 revisions, I'm pretty bitter and miffed that not only are they so rapidly moving to another full edition (due to cost, not due to any attachment to a specific ruleset; there's always room for improvement, and I was happy with the changes from 2nd to 3rd and from 3rd to 3.5), but they're also getting into the microtransactions game.

The latter is, I suspect, what's really pissing me off here.

Solid, WotC-supported online "tabletop" gaming tools have been needed for years, and it's about time they're getting into it. However, it's not as if they need to force their customers to purchase yet another edition of books, plus online fees to get whatever content they leave out of the books to get us to pay more, plus a heavier fee for their e-zine than what we were paying at newsstands/shops. And who knows what else we'll get charged for.

Color me cautiously pessimistic.

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I like how they would say words like "exciting" in a complete deadpan and non excited way.

LOL!

Aint nothing new about the world order..it's been playing since the day they put George Washington on a quarter

85's face the truth you're too dumb.

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Location: Straight Outta Arkham

On the other hand, the FUDGE game I'm running for Vrikk & other friends is going pretty well. Total investment: $15 for special dice.

EDIT:

ranalin wrote:
This is the big difference with them becoming a Hasbro company.

Poisonous Chinese-made components?

RIP ChronicNecrosis

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H.P. Lovesauce wrote:
the FUDGE game I'm running [...] is going pretty well.

I have no idea what that is, but my Googlesense is telling me I shouldn't type it into the internets - especially not while I'm at work...

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Location: Houston, TX

I haven't played D&D in about 14 years or so (good lord I feel old typing that), but I'm interested to hear what the online thing is all about. It's kind of surprising that they haven't gotten into that before now, and that 3rd-parties provide all the software to let people play PnP D&D with each other over the net.

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Mrf. As someone who also shelled out for 3rd and 3.5, I am also mildly miffed about this. Farscry already wrote all my reasons why though.

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Our group played 3rd and never bothered to upgrade to 3.5. It's doubtful we'll move to 4E any time soon. Farcry, be careful of using the word "force" when talking about voluntarily upgrading. There are plenty of people happy to play AD&D1 or even OD&D.

Fedaykin98 wrote:

Good lord, I wouldn't have expected brilliance like that from that nemeslut Quintin Stone!

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ranalin's picture
Location: Knoxville, TN

ranalin wrote:
This is the big difference with them becoming a Hasbro company.

Poisonous Chinese-made components?

i've been in a habit of calling WoTC Hasbro since the buyout.

Gamer Tag: Rantyr

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ranalin's picture
Location: Knoxville, TN

LockandLoaded points are also on the right track as well. Even in the PnP side the people who still game tend to make it a high tech affair with bringing in laptops and all sorts of aids.

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Location: Colorado

TheGameguru wrote:
I like how they would say words like "exciting" in a complete deadpan and non excited way.

LOL!

They need to hire infomercial loudmouth [url=http://www.amiannoying.com/(S(vi41ewivixtujk3r25hugz2e))/view.aspx?ID=5317]Billy Mays [/url]as their spokesman.

Bah, first edition blue paperback for the win.

I'm still waiting to get inside something, so for the moment, it's been very much "poke around the ravine." - rabbit

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Well given that 1st edition characters were normal folks, 2nd you were slightly larger than life an adventurer, 3rd you were definitely a hero, I imagine in 4th edition your a junior diety.

The games probably go something like this:
DM: Ok you are being attacked by an ancient wyrm, despite the fact that it ambushed you and had a 20 point bonus to its initiative, you guy still roll first.
Muchkin #1 (M1): OK, I swing my sword at it, I rolled a 12.
DM: OK you slice the dragons right foreleg off.
M1: I didn't kill it?
DM: No, but you did severly wound it.
M1: WTF, I'm level 2 damnit.
DM: Whatever, it's still alive, it's an Ancient wyrm damnit, the things been around for 10 millenia already. Muchkin #2 your roll.
Munkcin #2 (M2):Alright I'll use my dagger, woot a 20!
DM : Er, you... cut its head off?!
M1: No way I'm a wizard and she's only a druid.
DM: Alright I think its time to call it quits for tonight... M1 next time you'll be level 5, M2 you'll be level 4 so have your sheets updated with your new stuff for next time, OK?
M1&M2 pack their stuff up and leave.
DM looks at 4th edition books and weeps.

"Also, I have four legs and am covered in wool. Baa!" *Legion* reveals his inner furry.

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Quintin_Stone wrote:
Our group played 3rd and never bothered to upgrade to 3.5. It's doubtful we'll move to 4E any time soon. Farcry, be careful of using the word "force" when talking about voluntarily upgrading. There are plenty of people happy to play AD&D1 or even OD&D.

My use of the word "forced" is strictly to do with WotC's new online tabletop software/tools being built around 4th edition. So if you want to use them rather than 3rd party solutions, you are being forced into 4th.

Simply having the books available doesn't count as forcing anyone; I've got enough material with 3.5 to keep me happy for decades (I tend to create most of my material from scratch when DM'ing anyway, using the sourcebooks for inspiration more than for straight pulling of material). I only migrated from 3 to 3.5 because the changes were sufficient enough to be worthwhile to me, and at the time I had a regular gaming group.

These days, that doesn't really happen anymore, so my impetus to try new material is lower until I get to make more use of what I've got.

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Location: Straight Outta Arkham

Wrestlevania wrote:
H.P. Lovesauce wrote:
the FUDGE game I'm running [...] is going pretty well.

I have no idea what that is, but my Googlesense is telling me I shouldn't type it into the internets - especially not while I'm at work...

Well, you could check the Wikipedia entry, or Google Grey Ghost Games. Honest, you won't be too sorry you did.

ranalin wrote:
i've been in a habit of calling WoTC Hasbro since the buyout.

And after they either sell WotC, or rape their assets and dissolve them, because they've not earned according to shareholder expectations...?

RIP ChronicNecrosis

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Farscry wrote:
My use of the word "forced" is strictly to do with WotC's new online tabletop software/tools being built around 4th edition. So if you want to use them rather than 3rd party solutions, you are being forced into 4th.

Simply having the books available doesn't count as forcing anyone; I've got enough material with 3.5 to keep me happy for decades (I tend to create most of my material from scratch when DM'ing anyway, using the sourcebooks for inspiration more than for straight pulling of material). I only migrated from 3 to 3.5 because the changes were sufficient enough to be worthwhile to me, and at the time I had a regular gaming group.

These days, that doesn't really happen anymore, so my impetus to try new material is lower until I get to make more use of what I've got.

Seriously. The last game I was part of ran on 3.5 but was an entirely home-brewed affair. While I think taking advantage of the online arena and making it easier for games to exist there is wonderful and all, the fear, at least for me, is getting nickle-and-dimed to death over this. I can see myself paying for a wholly useful program that would allow me to play online, but then again, there's something to be said for actually looking at someone and not having to worry about lag timeouts.

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Prederick wrote:
I can see myself paying for a wholly useful program that would allow me to play online, but then again, there's something to be said for actually looking at someone and not having to worry about lag timeouts.

Yup; tabletop will never truly be replaceable for me. Being actually gathered around the living room or table or whatever and joking around & chatting while gaming can never quite be recreated sufficiently in an online format.

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Yup; tabletop will never truly be replaceable for me. Being actually gathered around the living room or table or whatever and joking around & chatting while gaming can never quite be recreated sufficiently in an online format.

I miss the carefree gaming days of my youth... Adulthood and the responsibilities involved are a bit overrated. I would kill for a regular PnP game but between the wife & kid, the closest I'll get is whatever I find on my PC or XBox.

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I agree with the physical tabletop experience being irreplaceable, but I'm looking forward to the online features with only mild apprehension. My gaming buddies and I have moved all over the country, some of us are married and others aren't, we all have different work schedules, etc. If 4th edition helps us find a way to sit down together for two or three hours a week and game, we'll be all over this.

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DrunkenSleipnir's picture
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Still using 2nd Ed, here. Works just fine, and it was a one-time investment a long long time ago

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DrunkenSleipnir wrote:
Still using 2nd Ed, here. Works just fine, and it was a one-time investment a long long time ago

Cheers to that, to be honest. THACOs and all.

I don't play D&D anymore, usually because of the refried feeling I get after I play a character and the problem I have the the inclusion of all of the wonderful new rules still makes combat ultimately... a ho-hum dice rolling competition.

I sincerely wish someone would make older systems like ICE's Rolemaster, where combat with anything was a frightening (and exciting) prospect and really forced RPers to actually RP because of the inherent fear of death. For those unfamiliar with Rolemaster (or Rollmaster to some) Your attacks to a hit damage with a chance to do a crit damage, generally from A-E, with each letter going up being more severe, though not necessarily any less dangerous..crits are then divided into categories such as Pierce, Slash, Blunt, Tiny, Smash/Bash/Falling, and then your elementals for mages, including Ice, Fire, Earth, Light, and so on. I once died from a rat inflicting an 'A' Tiny crit that actually severed my achilles tendon and I couldn't climb the rope out of the cave and busied myself lying there being eaten to death by starving rats. I've had my head exploded too, at the end of a morning star that I probably should have had the good sense not to go up against.

If someone could simplify that system somehow, I'd be all over it...

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LockAndLoad wrote:
Quote:
Yup; tabletop will never truly be replaceable for me. Being actually gathered around the living room or table or whatever and joking around & chatting while gaming can never quite be recreated sufficiently in an online format.

I miss the carefree gaming days of my youth... Adulthood and the responsibilities involved are a bit overrated. I would kill for a regular PnP game but between the wife & kid, the closest I'll get is whatever I find on my PC or XBox.

Oh, I haven't had a regular PnP game in years for the same general reasons. Just saying that online will never beat tabletop for overall experience imo.

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The irony is that I was contemplating picking up the 3.5 core books next weekend as a local bookstore was having a huge 10th anniversary sale on everything. So, I went to the wizards site to check if there was any Eberron books also worth picking up. That was 2-3 days ago when the site went into that countdown mode. So now, I'm debating picking anything up since it'll just be "unsupported" or whatnot in less than a year.

I'll echo everyone else who saw 3.0/3.5 as a tremendous upgrade to 2.0. It was night and day frankly. However, I read this awesome comment on slashdot about the homogenization of the classes and essentially the MMO-ing of the tabletop game:

http://games.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=272173&threshold=1&commentsort=0&mode=thread&cid=20256871

Fascinating read. Basically, you're playing the MMO/WoW/EQ equivalent over Cheetos and soda -- oh, and next to a laptop of three since your dndinsider login is practically required to get the most mileage out of the 4th edition. (Question: if the DM and players need to log in over a virtual tabletop... why not just, uh, play WoW?!?!?)

Do I begrudge Hasbro/WotC making money? No, but it reeks a little too much like desperation.

p.s. I think I'll pick up the 3.5 books and some Eberron stuff. It'll be the last "true" paper-only RPG version of DnD...

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Eberron is good sauce man. Indiana Jones and Forgotten Realms, two great tastes that taste great together.

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kilroy0097's picture
Location: Bryan/College Station, TX

Online tools and support for a TT RPG. Didn't we just talk about that with Alpha Omega RPG?
http://www.gamerswithjobs.com/node/33789

The online dungeon makers and playing online with chat support and stuff looks neat. The online community is a growing trend though honestly the hanging out together in real life was part of the fun. Just another knock against tangible society. Sad really even though it's a useful tool. What would be funny is 5 friends in the same room all using laptops via wireless and playing the game on their laptops using this feature while all in the same room together. What's next probably the coffee table PC that everyone gathers around, which they already have prototypes of. Then the holographic table is the ultimate version at some point in the future.

Looks like I see a new trend in TT RPGs. I expect to see something like this come out for White Wolf and Palladium in the coming year or something similar. They've had programs and information online for years for reference and other things but this level of interaction online is I guess a new thing for them. I think it's a good new step.

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DrunkenSleipnir wrote:
Still using 2nd Ed, here. Works just fine, and it was a one-time investment a long long time ago

I started on 2nd edition, and although I had stopped playing D&D by the point 3rd edition came out I still learnt the 3rd edition rules through games like NWN and it's ilk. I didn't see a huge difference. Skill points felt unnecessarily complicated (seperating different parts of stealth into different categories seemed incredibly obnoxious), feats were OK, but the part I hated the most was the changes to AC modifiers and how they came in different categories now, with non-stacking if 2 items shared the same "type". It still pisses me off to this day, I feel like NWN2 expects me to have some kind of spreadsheet on at all times to make sure that when I buy a new item I'm fully aware of the potential overlap, and try to mix and match across my party to maximize the AC. It's frustrating and pointless.

The point is, 2nd edition was juuust fine.

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I have no clue how I managed to double post. Too early on a saturday morning.

Morrolan wrote:

I'm pretty sure Gabe Newell hangs out on top of the Valve building like Father Gregori, firing warning shots over any Sony people that come within fifty paces of the door.

XBLA / Steam: Dysplastic

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This sounds pretty cool to me. I've been playing pnp online with some friends using skype, and rptools. If the dnd insider is similiar I'll be keeping an eye on it.