Fang - I'm not quite sure what argument you were refuting here; are you saying that PvP is not a viable endgame?

That brings up an interesting point to me, which is this: there is no viable endgame. Sooner or later, you run out of content. Raid enough and you'll have beaten every boss in the game, and you're essentially done. What extends games past their normal lifetimes is new contents via updates or expansions. In the meantime, you can farm the heck out of the boss for gear, or PvP because you enjoy it, or just play an alt.

Come to think of it, your comparison to FPS games is apt, because FPS games are not "endgames" either - they are competitions that are played strictly for momentary enjoyment, for as long as they're fun. When they aren't fun anymore, you discard them. PvP in MMOs is the same way.

That said, and my quasi-disagreement with you established, what would you prefer? If you're saying "PvP is not sufficient to keep people interested and playing", then what is? I think it's implicit in your argument that devs would be better off investing their resources elsewhere in the game, so where? If the answer is another raid dungeon, then I disagree (and I'm assuming at the moment that a new raid dungeon takes the same amount of resources to build as a new PvP arena/BG/whatnot). The raid dungeon will be seen by fewer people, and probably becomes too repetitive to be interesting quicker than PvP, which at least has the randomness of human opponents involved.

Very thought-provoking post, thanks!

Just because you can't play an FPS for more than a few hours doesn't mean that others can't or don't. Hours played per day is more of a personal preference than any type of genre limitation.

I'd say even after my time spent in all my previous MMO's(most spent at the end game lvl) that i've clocked more hours in FPS's. I love them and can't get enough of them. I'm sure i'm not the only one.

Thats why people focus on putting pvp into their MMO's. Not only do you have the dynamic FPS style play but it's done with a background story and some content to flavor the experience. The outcome of the stories are varied and different with every fight so the user is generating their own content.

Content is king when it comes down to the longevity of MMO's.

Its sarcasm but my point is PvP can't be written off when honestly the majority of MMO's to date have been very raw games. Previous release standards and expectations of performance for MMO games before WoW were pretty despicable, it was a strange genre where to many people accepted the servers to crash and the games buggy as hell. I think its safe to say we have finally gone over that hill where the consumer base wont tolerate being kicked in the balls at release.

PvP that's truly balanced is boring. You need the influx of the different gear to change things up.

Much will depend on the in-game mechanics of the MMO in question. The longevity of multiplayer FPS comes from a combination of things, but most important is the room the genre provides for personal improvement. The prime example has to to be Counter Strike. There are many factors that are instrumental to your success in CS. On the one end are the various bits of knowledge. These can range from anything as obvious as which order of number keys correspond to which equipment, to as subtle as any given gun's spread pattern. On the other end is the way in which the players apply these bits of knowledge in combat. Knowing a gun's spread pattern is one thing, but being able to retain this knowledge in the heat of combat and use it to your advantage is another. Most of the times these two departments really are inseparable, but for the sake of clarity it's better to treat them as two.

In both of these departments there is room for growth. It will take a while before a player first realizes that short, careful bursts while crouching will grant him higher accuracy. It will take him much longer to realize that full auto still has its use in some situations and that crouching isn't always preferred in a shoot-out. It will also take a while to learn the maps, and learn to trick your opponent into thinking you're going one way, when you're really going another. All the while, you will improve your twitch and your aim. You will learn to listen for footsteps of others and conceal your own. When your personal performance is satisfactory, you will start thinking on a tactical level, and begin predicting your opponents' moves, and coordinate actions with your teammates.

The point is, a game like CS has longevity embedded in its mechanics. Because the mechanics are difficult to master and understand, there is a near limitless room for improvement. PVP is just the catalyst. The knowledge you acquired and skills you honed are irrelevant without challenge, and what can serve as a better challenge than opponents who are not just dangerous, but can become even more dangerous over time? This indomitable challenge will serve as an incentive for you to spend an indefinite amount of time to better yourself. The side product, of course, is the added time spent playing the game.

I think MMOs like WoW are on the right track when they add PVP into their repertoire. One minor problem with WoW's PVP (in my opinion) lies in its mechanics. Sure, it has a fair-sized database of knowledge that players can learn from. Because there are nine classes, and all of which are powerful, a player willing to succeed in PVP will want to at least learn how to counter the other eight classes with his own. Furthermore, with persistence, one can find plenty of obscure tricks. The problem is that the room for growth, at least for the player, stops early. Eventually, every one will hit a ceiling. From then on, an encounter between any two players will boil down to a highly specific order of events, with stats and luck being the deciding factors for the outcome. This is the reason Blizzard devs focus on group PVP in WoW. Group PVP adds complexity, and can possibly make up for the limited room of growth on an individual level.

The ultimate point of the post is that PVP should be a welcomed part of an MMO, and thanks to the nature of the indomitable challenge, should provide more longevity than PVE. The perception of the "binary goals" like what FBB said in his post is strictly the result of the limitation of the game's mechanics and the usual lack of teamwork among the players.

I think that's true. I think what would be better is equal opportunity PvP. Its up to you to show up prepared. If you don't you are at a disadvantage.

Good question and a topic in and of itself. I think public quests are a great start. But my ideas for this are scattered and I havent taken the time to write them down cohesively... yet.

No, I think it is a genre "limitation". I haven't heard of FPS players losing jobs, families, friends, dropping out of school, and girlfriends. Maybe there are a few, but the vast majority of problems like this started with MUD's, and EQ and WoW are big culprits.

Do you sweat during playing an MMO? Because I sure know that is a limiting factor for my playing FPS for extended periods. My friends and people at LAN parties have that problem too.

That is certainly true. And the PvP gear grind in WoW can hamper that severely.

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That would be an interesting proposal for changes to a WSG style battleground. You can choose your class at the onset or the class you play will be what class you are once the PvP battle begins. However, you are given stock gear at the start. As you capture the different resource points you get bonuses to your stock gear. The weaponsmith will give bonus to metal weapons and the armorsmith enhances armor. The mill will give bonuses to maces, bows and staves. The sheep farm will give bonuses to cloth armor. The cow farm will give bonuses to leather armor. You could even position NPCs at the different resource points that give bonuses to the different elemental magics. Win by attrition, force or patience and a late surge.

I'd chalk that up to MMOs having more mass appeal than FPSes.

Except for some hand sweat when playing a console, I can't recall ever sweating while playing a videogame. The only LAN parties I've participated in have been barracks based; and the only sweating I recall by the players occurred while we were in Okinawa during the summer and the AC was out. I can't imagine a healthy person sweating very much while participating in an activity that's little more than pushing buttons and moving a mouse.

I dunno, Lobster, I'm not specced for PvP and I'm having a great time with it. I think I've taken one talent so far that might be more PvP-oriented (but is still useful in PvE).

It has just occurred to me that ideas like a PvP server or a game like DAoC that is strongly oriented towards the PvP (RvR) aspect are probably better served with fewer levels and less disparity between them; if the point of your game/server is that there's a big war going on, doesn't it make sense to make that war accessible to most players? Whereas in WoW, level 70s will raid a town that gives quests for level 30s (Southshore is what I'm thinking here).

I'd say it has more to do with the pay to play aspect of MMO's (with noted exceptions) and wanting to get all the value possible out of $15/month as well as the dynamic nature of the ever dangling carrot-on-a-stick (better gear, stats, leveling). In an FPS the only goal you are working towards is winning. Since the world isn't persistent your wins or finishing spot mean very little (although there are probably some exceptions here as well). In an MMO your wins and kills can eventually get you better gear or a crazy mount or something.

good example of that is the warrior. prot is total flat out crap in pve. (except for flag carrying in premade wsg's maybe, or shutting down healers in a 5v5, couple top teams have some crazy 20k hp tanks doin that)

There are no absolutes in pvp. I beat better geared people all the time. over and over again. Yes there's times when i get destroyed but its never an all or nothing deal.

As for the comment about specc's that's a different problem. There's obviously better spec's for PvP. No surprise there but you have to decide what you want to do more.

well common sense would say no to that. If you're 15-20 lvl's below the cap then you're not partaking in the end game side of things.

The OP was trying to point out how PvP isn't viable for extending the end game in MMO's.

Of course back before the BG's and we'd all bring the servers down i'd try and jump in to do waht i could. of course i was healing and not actually trying to take anyone down.

Heck, in 50-59 battlegrounds my level 50 mage doesn't stand a chance and was recently told to get out because he's "too low level".

hehe That's because twinks rule the lower lvl BG's. Now there i can see people complaining about gear because it becomes it's harder to win unless at that level unless you're equally geared. while much harder it's still not impossible.

I see why people would complain i just dont agree with them (forum posters cry everyday about twinks). Whenever there's a difference between levels the person at the lower level is handicapped with his chances to hit the higher level. Just the way it is.