WoW - Rogue questions
So my wife is rocking away with her 30something Rogue, which has caused the complete abandoning of her 60 Hunter. Also, I've really been enjoying PvP lately, so I rolled up a new Rogue myself last night (I actually have a 14 Gnome Rogue, but that's when I discovered I just can't play Gnomes).
Can anyone give me an idea of what each of the Rogue talent trees is about? The classes I'm most familiar with are a little more obvious - Pally, Druid, and Hunter. I assume that just like those, the three Rogue trees represent different playstyles, but I'm not sure which is which.
It appears to me that Subtlety is somewhat PvP oriented, or at least, can be. It seems like Combat is straightforward PvE DPS. No idea what Assassination is for.
Also, I've noticed in my short time playing mine last night and this morning that I'm getting seen by enemies a LOT when stealthed. I know there's a talent in Subtlety to help that, but I had heard that one should skip that talent. What good is stealth if you get seen half the time?
There doesn't seem to be a Pickpocketing skill - you just have it, and that's it? I would have thought it would be something like Lockpicking, where you have to skill up.
I'd love to hear from the Rogue players out there and please especially tell me which tree you play, and if you have experience with other trees.
Thanks!
Quote:
Would be a good idea. I plan to have Logan sit in for me when I am on my honeymoon.
- Legion, taking "keeping it in the family" to a whole new level.
Xbox Live: Fedaykin98
With the BC v2.1 skill tree I played a mutilate combat rogue (41/20/0). This was a balanced PvE/PvP build. This was all about positioning and good daggers. Pre-BC I played a combat sword build, a combat dagger build, a Seal Fate build, and a 20/0/21 or something like that in a raiding environment.
Not sure what you want to do with your alt, but Combat Swords is the way to get 1-60 out of the way pretty quickly. PvP is all about the stunlock. Stealth will get broken if you get too close walking in a mob's LoS. The saying in one of the rogue communities I was a part of was "rogues do it better from behind."
Have fun.
XBL: nearly there
So far you're right on about the talent trees. Assassination is bit trickier to characterize...it's more of a spikey DPS build vs Combat's even DPS. It focuses on large crits and more combos. I usually think of Combat as the "pirate rogue" and the other trees as the "ninja" rogue when it comes to play style.
I leveled my rogue into the 30s with assassination/subletly build. I would focus on how to approach in stealth, who to sap (back when there was an improved sap talent), and once combat started, it was about stunning and backstabbing. It was a lot of fun, being a sneaky bastard, and required a good bit of thought. However, after my daughter was born, I was finding that this involved play style didn't suite me because I was now insanely tired and now one handed (my girl being soothed in the other one in the middle of the night). So I changed over to Combat, and remapped everything to one hand. This had the side effect of putting the game on easy mode. Leveling was a breeze after that, although after the allure of that wore off I noticed being less involved during combat.
All in all, I find the rogue class fun to play. My alt rogue is something I would just play for fun, and so I made it to 60 without even trying.
Xbox Live: Stilgar Black
keep in mind i've not touched my rogue since before BC. i know the subltety tree has things that help dagger rogues, but last i looked up anything about the trees the combination of combat/assasination with a focus of swords was the best for DPS.
I know there's been changes to all this with the expansion and the restructering of the talent trees.
Gamer Tag: Rantyr
honestly, i'd stay away from rogues right now. They have too many issues later on. Vanish is broken again, pvp viability not scaling well, (just look at the top 20 5v5 arena teams and how many actually take a rogue) i've had a rogue main since launch in september of 04/05 whatever it was. Rogues used to be the kings of pvp but nowadays, they are mediocre at best TBH. There's just so many classes you will have immense trouble with considering somewhat equal gear / skill. Warriors. Paladins (ret pally's with good gear will rape your face while you can't cc them in any form) Warlocks can now easily trinket out of your kidney shots messing up stunlocks, so you have to rely on Cloak of shadows far more. BM hunters pretty much will waste you, you can't slow them and will get kited to death. Rogues are the only class in wow that have no way to close the gap to attack another player other than sprint, a 5 m cooldown. Warriors even have intercept, everyone else has some form of ranged attack/spell/snare. This is really the key. Rogues are fun at low to medium levels, and are much more powerful then. at 70 this starts to wane. They can still be kings of DPS in raid settings, but that really requires a good raid dps build to do consistantly, which sucks for pvp (see : combat daggers ).
i'd also like to add that i've got a 70 mage/warrior/rogue/hunter/druid, and the rogue is the most frustrating of them all pve and pvp.
Yes, I know - my main is a Pally
So it sounds like the best levelling spec is Combat swords? I might give it a shot, even though the reason I'm playing a rogue is to be a ninja, not a swashbuckler. It's just a pain trying to sneak up on people while moving really slowly, and get a shot at their back. By people I mean mobs, not players, since I'm level 7.
Quote:
- Legion, taking "keeping it in the family" to a whole new level.
Xbox Live: Fedaykin98
well, combat in general is probably the easiest spec to deal with because your positioning matters not at all, and getting spotted in stealth isnt a huge gamebreaker. Sure losing a cheap shot sucks but you have much better damage mitigation and can always (with talents eventually) hit the i win button adrenaline rush. swords is good for the extra attack procs, and high base dmg for big sinister strikes. Fists is also good but its much easier to find swords than those till late in BC. if you insist on levelling a rogue i'd definately go all out combat, but i'd put your first talents in the +crit talent in ass. first though. then improved sinister strike/eviscerate (these will be your bread and butter for a long long time) then start going down the combat tree.
First things first; Rogues are fine. Vanish isn't broken, it's having the same lag induced issues it's always had; the catch is that people are just complaining about it more.
On talent trees, Combat is the Swashbuckler-style. If you're going after the ninja style Rogue, complete with swords and all, I'd suggest a hybrid build. 30/0/30, with a spare point for either the Subtletly or Assassination trees is where it's at. If you want daggers though, go 41 in either Assassination or Subtlety.
Of the two, Assassination(Mutilate) is heavy in nature damage, and more PvE oriented. Subtlety(Shadowstep) is more PvP oriented. So, ultimately how you spec depend heavily on your playstyle. Personally, I enjoy my rogue, I just never really got to love him a lot @ 60 like I did my shaman, or the myriad hunters I've leveled(Current count on hunters rolled & played for AJ is 4.)
Coldstream wrote:
actually you can go hemo build with swords if you want a ninja sword type build. 30/0/30 is almost exclusively for a dagger ambush/prep setup. I flat out disagree with your take on vanish, it doesn't reset aggro quite a bit now. Many times I'll vanish with a mob on me, and.. mob never goes away. Thats broken. Thats not lag. I get around 80 ping anyway. Anyway for levelling I'd probably go deep combat. the 'fun' specs just aren't near as efficient PVE questing/soloing.
I've never had vanish fail to reset aggro. What you're experiencing, which has been confirmed by QA folks from Blizzard(NOT CMs) multiple times is that lag can disrupt Vanish from working properly on occasion. As for 30/0/30 being a dagger spec, you're nuts. Hemo was built for slow 1h weapons, not daggers. With enough AP, it's a complete replacement for Sinister Strike.
http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Azjol-Nerub&n=Ay... << That's my rogue. Currently 21/0/31 Hybrid, building for 30/0/31. Reasoning is such: Hemo replaces SS for combo point building. @60, with AP values exceeding 1000 and a reasonably slow MH weapon(2.6 or greater), it was more efficient in terms of DPE for raiding purposes, as well as being a faster generator of combo points for finishers. Building the additional points in gives you the advantage of Seal Fate; double CP on crits. All in all, SF/Hemo is THE build for PvP stunlocking; there simply isn't anything else out there that can come close in terms of CP generation and damage potential, especially when using Hemo as a SS replacement.
Coldstream wrote:
well either way you look at it vanish has a buggy aspect it didnt have a few patches earlier, at any rate, i had a 30/0/31 build without hemo so i suppose they could be different
it rocked for arena but that was about it. I dunno though I love my cheap shot, mutilate, kidney shot, cold blood +ap trinket mutilate / evisc combo too much. flat out drops most clothies. I got a 3300 mutilate the other day with blue daggers doing that 
My info on rogues is also pre-BC but I have to agree with the folks saying to go with combat maces/swords for levelling up. My first rogue I levelled from 1-60 using only daggers and the second one on a different server I did to 39 using swords/maces depending on which I came across first was way the hell easier to level.
I disagree slightly on the initial build though. I would get improved sin strike first and then start working on the 5 pts in crit. Taking the extra 5 energy off of SS essentially makes it so SS costs 2 energy ticks rather than 2.25 ticks. I think that at a low level with a crappy weapon that you will get more bang for your buck out of being able to get off SS more often than with the extra crit. Then again 1-20 is so easy that it shouldn't matter which way you go.
My rogue was a lot of fun considering in most MMOs I either play a tank or a healer... Or in the case of Vanguard the all powerful tank healing cleric of doom.
Yea, that's a completely different build from what I'd run. I ran BGs for a while @ 70, and ignored clothies. I delighted in stunlocking T1/T2 warriors & paladins from 100-0 in pretty close to the gear you see in that armory profile. Very disgusting build in proper hands.
mven is spot on with the build order, too. Imp SS then Cruelty, and at that point, build through the combat tree.
Coldstream wrote:
As mentioned by a few people, combat is the way forward for levelling. I find it pretty good for PVP too - but bear in mind I'm only level 56. Adrenaline Rush + Blade Flurry + Riposte = very fast death for multiple mobs or even sometimes 2 x 1 PVP. Nothing quite like unloading pure death against two similar level opponents in PVP before they can think "Looky here, it's a squishy rogue!". It doesn't happen often, but when it does it's awesome.
The stealth problem depends a lot on level. The higher their lvl versus yours, the larger the range they can see you from. If you are anywhere behind them they will not notice you in stealth no matter what the level difference. Distract works wonders in these situations: they turn away so you have enough time to pick their pockets and then hit them with your opener of choice. It's also good for stopping patrolling mobs dead in their tracks, but bear in mind it is resisted sometimes.
As for pickpocketing: There is no skill for it, and it can also be resisted (taking you out of stealth). It doesn't happen often but when it does it can be a pain, especially if you have a penchant for pickpocketing multiple mobs (and I do. I love stealing them blind...).
If you can't be a good example, at least be a horrible warning.
Pickpocketing humanoid mobs is free money. Take the half a second to pickpocket before you drop an opener, and you'll be thankful you did later.
Coldstream wrote:
Amen.
Well worth doing, even in groups. The loot doesn't get shared, unlike corpse looting, and while the amounts are generally not very large, they quickly add up. Also, you can find lockboxes for practicing your lockpicking on, which is very useful, and in those lockboxes there are usually rogue reagents for poison, blinding powder and whatnot.
If you can't be a good example, at least be a horrible warning.
There is a Pickpocket-Cheap Shot macro you can set up that works fairly well.
I'm not going to argue with Solitaire. Reading what he says reminds me of why I had to stop reading the official rogue message boards. There are so many threads there about rogues being underpowered and vanish being broken that it is dizzying. To me these arguments are all in the eye of the beholder. A rogue played properly in PvE or PvP can be a very rewarding experience. If you are a duo of rogues then prepare for some ridiculous amount of fun in PvP.
A good source for actual and current rogue information can be found at:
http://forums.roguespot.com/
Not sure what the guidelines are for a Cloak and Dagger account, but you used to need a level 60. They may have relaxed those rules. Lots of helpful people there that are pretty positive about the class mechanics, theory, etc. Rougespot.com also has links to helpful articles as well.
XBL: nearly there
All I know is ghostly strike is awesome! I enjoyed it quite a bit before respecing to combat for sword spec. I found I really missed it after speccing out of it. Its basically like a spammable mini evasion. It does great damage and you take a lot less damage from fights. It made it much easier to handle an add in PvE.
Without GS, you almost certainly had to use evasion when you had an add or it was 50/50 whether you'd survive. If your evasion is up, you pretty much sprinted away if it looked like you weren't going to make it. So you can see, especially since evasion and sprint are on 5 minute timers, the benefits of ghostly strike.
I never made it to try hemorrhage, but it looks pretty good too.
Being fangoriously devoured by a gelatinous monster.
http://blue.cardplace.com/newcache/forums.wow-europe.com/275437587.htm?p... << The official word on Vanish.
Ghostly Strike is one of those I never really worried about. Leveling up the rogue, I was combat. When I hit 60 and had 3.5 min timers on Evasion and Vanish, plus Preparation not having one or the other up wasn't a concern. On top of that, the build I ran was very tight on talent points anyway, and there simply wasn't room for Ghostly Strike. However, I can certainly see the benefit, especially taken with 3/3 Setup(CP for dodging attacks/resisting spells)
Coldstream wrote:
Like I wasn't gonna respond to that subtle flame. I've played a rogue for 2+ years and I know of what I speak. I play him 'properly' in pve and pvp. If you want hard numbers, go look at the top 20 teams in 5v5 3v3 and 2v2 and notice that rogues are among the BOTTOM 3 classes in almost all categories. (Hunters and Druids are the other two I believe). That right there shows we have problems in arena, especially 5v5. Our subtelty tree is crap, the 41 pointer is laughable... but yea, we're completely fine. Sure the class isn't completely screwed and can have some fun factor, but you have to work hard to find it. Rogues are very gear dependant now, alot more than they used to be. All in all, I think rogues need a little love, and our subtelty tree revamped.
proof's in the pudding so to speak. some of the Blizzcon roundtable notes pointed at them addressing the Rogues issues to help roundthem back up to what they used to be.
It used to be that Rogues were supposed to be THE dps maker. After BC it's shifted to the mage.
Gamer Tag: Rantyr
well yea, i think part of the reason for that is rogues are good dps but require lots of healing in most raid situations. Mages require none, and can outdps us, summon water, buff, port. Who you gonna pick?
First things first, I suppose. Sub tree has already been revamped, and as a Sword Hemo rogue, I like the old one better. I waste more points on the new crap than I did before. As to the 41 pt Sub talent being laughable, that's just crap. Shadowstep is right behind Cloak of Shadows on the complaints about rogues list. It's super blink on a 15 second cooldown.
As for rogues in the bottom three taken in Arenas, who cares? That just means that the min-maxers don't like them as much. The fact that there ARE rogues there means that just like has been stated, properly geared, played and spec'd, they do just fine. Want a class with arena issues? Look at hunters and Druids.
All in all, the only reason my rogue is still sitting @ 61 is because I find him underpowered. Not broken, just underpowered. He's nowhere near the powerhouse that he was before the expansion came out, and that makes soloing harder. I still love the class, always have, always will. I've simply never had the stubborness to use him as a main due to the large amount of them floating around.
Coldstream wrote:
Have to agree with ranalin's post saying that Blizzard said at Blizzcon that they're looking to make Rogues more viable in arenas. Hunters are getting a boost first, though - possibly with the next patch?
They also talked about boosting druids for the arenas, but they apparently want to watch it a bit, because the number of druids in arenas is already rising - they think people are just figuring out how to use them.
Quote:
- Legion, taking "keeping it in the family" to a whole new level.
Xbox Live: Fedaykin98
Druids are a very funny class. They absolutely excel at PvE. Tanking, Melee DPS, BOOMKIN! dps, and Tree Heals make for an outstanding boon to PvP in any form. However, they're historically been limited in the cases of focused PvP, ie Arenas and duels. Hunters and rogues are quite the opposite, which makes it so surprsing in a sense that they're underutilized. Hunters, however, have issues with LoS, and Rogues lose their major advantage in stealth. All in all, I definitely agree that rogues need a boost. Don't mistake me thinking that they're largely fine for that. I feel that the Sub tree has gotten better in some aspects(dagger specs, for example) and worse for how I utilize it. I've had to take a couple of 'trash' talents, which while good choices, just don't make a lot of sense for my build and playstyle. Luna, as I'm sure you've seen, is quite pleased with how Sub works, as are others.
Oh, and druids; you're probably very right about that. People are still figuring out how to play, since they were almost completely revamped leading into the expansion.
Coldstream wrote:
Supposedly they are looking to buff Cat form, which is cool because my highest alt is a feral druid who spends 90% of his time that way.
Quote:
- Legion, taking "keeping it in the family" to a whole new level.
Xbox Live: Fedaykin98
god i hope they don't its already ridiculous in pvp. cat druids hit harder than my rogue does. alot harder. this is a combat log that opened my eyes (well typed out of memory, but i remember oh boy)
druid pounces. (yay cheap shot WITH A DOT TOO)
druid mangles me for 2k.
druid shreds me for 3400+(this one blew me away)
somehow i was still standing (I have around 8.5k hp on my rogue)
druid ferocious bit me for 4.3k (good luck getting an eviscerate to even come close to the levels a druids ferocious bite can hit for.)
.... srsly, f cat druids. I was fighting someone else (it was a bg) and i died so fast i didnt know what hit me till i looked at my combat log. Out of curiosity I armory'd this guy. Mostly non heroic dungeon blues and a few pvp epics (just like me) and thats it. nerf cat droods
Fixed..
All joking aside.. every single DPS class that can DPS is fine.. when played properly and geared properly they all seem about right.. and lets face it we're talking a small % of difference on most fights.. and rarely a decent % difference depending on the specific fight and its mechanics.
Theres some specific fixes that need to be applied for certain classes to remain viable in PVP.. but in general PVE is pretty dead on in terms of balance.
Aint nothing new about the world order..it's been playing since the day they put George Washington on a quarter
85's face the truth you're too dumb.
http://www.myspace.com/armyofthepharaohs
i'd tend to agree with gg, pve is pretty balanced. pvp is farked. personally i don't like this rock paper scissors crap, because it seems halfassed. Like it applies to some classes and doesn't to others, or only partly... or not at all. Personally I'd like a decent chance vs any class 1on1 and thats the way it should be imo.
yeah but you realize how insanely difficult that would be to do.. 1 on 1 balance is almost impossible.. because the end result would be the melee classes would be way overpowered.
Aint nothing new about the world order..it's been playing since the day they put George Washington on a quarter
85's face the truth you're too dumb.
http://www.myspace.com/armyofthepharaohs
I have to disagree there. I think it adds a good element to PvP that you can't take on every class 1on1. I know I can't take a Rogue if they get the drop on me. I know I can kite a Warrior to death but don't usually bother. I know I can rip to shreds any Caster that gets in my way, only Locks will usually get me in the end since they would have DoT'ed me enough to kill me 3 times over. Shamans and Pallies I will take a backseat and let someone take them face on and then come in as support.
That is how the classes are supposed to be balanced IMO. You spec a certain way to be able to handle certain other classes. If I was BM I would tear a Rogue a new butt hole with my 18 sec of "Whoop A@@". But I would lose my Silencing Shot which I have come to cherish so much.
I think it does really come down to how you play the character you chose, and maybe gear does help a great deal of the time as well.
Fathgar - Feathermoon
wordsmythe - "Jesus would drive a Hummer and burn as much oil as possible, since the dinosaurs it's made out of seem to be confusing people.