I'll be interested to see how Warhammer does. Being a dedicated carebear, I believe a big part of WoW's ability to broaden the MMO subscriber base was making PvP a total option. Just like Vanguard tanked by trying to appeal to the old school style of punishing player failures (i.e. xp loss for dying), I'm guessing Warhammer won't come anywhere even close to WoW because it makes PvP mandatory. I know I have zero interest in trying it, just like you'll probably never find me on a WoW PvP server. DAoC peaked at 250,000 subs, so the idea of world PvP wasn't pulling in many new players back when Everquest was king. On the other hand, I assume WoW has found more people that turned out to like PvP, so I expect Warhammer will beat DAoC's numbers. I'm curious to see how many though, as my sense is that most of the new player population would not have taken up WoW if there was mandatory open world PvP.

For example, I'm in a huge WoW guild, about 200 accounts & a pile of toons, and most of the guild never played an MMO before. The only Arena team made up purely of guild members is one 2v2. A couple people are on 3v3 with people outside the guild, and one person I know is on a 5v5 team. Two hundred people and only five want to do Arena? I've got some toons in another smaller guild, and while they raid Karazhan three nights a week, they have zero Arena participation. PvP just isn't a draw for most folks.

That seems like a cool tradeoff... particularly if you aren't punished much for death, I think that would be fun.

They are not aiming to be a "WoW-killer", that's the point of Paul's comments.

They respect WoW, you have to if you want to survive in the MMO market. They know it is king and any poking fun at quests (that sound like they are from WoW) is funny and so true at the same time. I am a long time WoW player and agree with them completely on how a new quest design is really needed in today's MMO world.

The Warhammer IP has been around for YEARS. I personally have some models that are older than some of my WoW guild mates. This is something though that can cut both ways and the Mythic guys are teetering close. Stay true to the IP. You're talking about legions of guys who're used to min/max'ing, lore whores expecting things to match what they've been used to playing on a table top. Where if the Realm PvP wasn't there they cry foul and not join up.

Then you have the other side that has been weened on WoW and the general distaste for PvP. The huge number of potential cross over players are out there on that side so to not at least try and give this group something to like is a huge marketing no no.

If they scew the game to far one way or the other and i think they end up with a bomb. Still one of the things i've actually enjoyed from the Mythic guys and of course the blow-hard Barnnett is that they've been exceedingly up front (compared to other development teams) about what they're making and what to expect.

For me, it is the PVP ideas and quest design = Led Zep. The only MMO that impresses me at all with graphics is LOTRO (well, Eve is pretty nice too).

Obviously, WHO won't overly impress anyone with graphics/animations/spells, etc. WoW does have great animations, effects, etc LOTRO has great atmosphere and vistas. Those will be hard to beat this generation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApxnAr6pRt0

Nuff said.

"Lore whores"...this thread was worth reading, if only for that memorable phrase.

This game intrigues me a lot; I keep thinking about the "Warhammer" (small unit/tactical) game as opposed to the "Warhammer RPG" which Games Workshop abandoned for a number of years to thrive on its own, then bought back. From what I've been reading over the years, this is more of the latter than the former...which makes me wonder about it's viability.

lol play in a WH game against one just once and you'll be doing everything in your power to not jump over the table and make murals out of brain matter. Better yet goto a Game Day and most the guys you play against are the same.

Didn't help that as these guys were totally destroying your army they had to go on explain why your painted (and in your eyes beautiful) figures were inferior because they were missing a paticular piece of flare that represented Battle XX in the year XX.

LoL anyway in that type of game it's all in the details. And i think you're right about the difference between the two and i think they've stated that fact earlier in development.

To continue the digression... I totally reccomend Mark of Chaos if you're a fan of those old games. You can build your own armies which all by itself can melt some hours away.

LoL Warmachine. I have half an army from them as well. I used to invest in the local gaming stores here and the first one i did that with refused to deal with GW and only stocked the Warmachine gear.

To kinda bring it back on track... this type of IP recognition that's out there will bring in just as much if not more subs than what we saw in LotRO.

He should have used a different band. Led Zeppelin were (or at least Robert Plant was) all about the JRR Tolkien.

I'm hoping for good things from WAR. I don't know how long "Monster Play" will be able to hold my PvP loving attention.

If Warhammer works out anything like DAoC then PvP may initially be a huge part of the end game. Once they have a ton of people maxing out their characters who are disinterested in PvP they will shell out a hardcore PvE expansion (ToA in daoc). I think if they manage to avoid focusing too heavily on either PvE or PvP and balance out the amount of content provided for both I think they can do a pretty good job of keeping the PvE population amused without alienating those who just want DAoC RvR v2.0. Either way I don't think pure PvE people will feel very left out once the game is well under way.

I think Warhammer will do at least as well as LOTRO. DAoC was pretty successful for its time. It didn't kill off EQ but 250k subs when the biggest Western MMO was capping out at around 500k is pretty impressive. If you played DAoC at release you have to admit that while it had newer graphics and a relatively smooth launch it was just a shell of the PVE game EQ was at the time. Relatively few quests, minimal lore, at least half of the dungeons weren't itemized, balance issues, etc. Yet they still managed to pick up a rather large playerbase. Though I am not sure if this is a testament of how bad people wanted to get away from EQ or if the thought of realms at war was that appealing.

Hubbinsd the Minikiss thing is amazing.

Actually, a band came through town recently with that exact name, and is, indeed, an all girl Led Zeppelin cover band.

http://austinchronicle.com/gyrobase/Guides/Bands?oid=477233

all MMO's to some degree looks like WoW because WoW looks the games that also came before it. The standard WoW "look" has pretty much been the same since the beginning. The WoW gameplay and the emphasis it put on different things like questing and world movement is what set it apart.

The end game for WoW after a certain point is mind numbingly dull. Same thing week after week. The only thing different is who gets the loots. WHO has stated they're creating what's called public quests and along with the RvR makes them stand apart from WoW. Which they've stated over and over again they're not trying to outdo or beat them. Conflict between players is a great way to prevent the endgame duldrum that WoW creates. Whether it's done through pvp or rvr IMO doesn't matter as long as there's something more to do.

I'm sorry "murder ball" http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/media/video/files/VotM_Press-RvR.html attached to a RvR component isn't the revolutionary feature that sets this game as the next big thing.

Public quests sound amazing, Paul did an amazing job of wanting me to play the game. Then they pump out this http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/flash/VotM_PQs_bitrate.html clearly unfinished and underwhelming video of examples of it.

My problem is what Paul Barnett is saying which is amazing motivating information about the game and what they turn around and show us which isn't what I would call the Led Zeppelin of the MMO genre. What do they do if Blizzard turns around and announces an expansion in November or December with allot of similar features? They already have a hopeful release date of "early 2008" from what we have seen so far. They are flirting with disaster if they think they can keep this game in development forever ironing out all the edges.

edit: fixed link