The thing with the hybrid classes is that there is more than one "right" spec. The thing that sucks wiht pallies is that whatever "right" spec you chose, you'll never be as good as a specialized class that does the same.

I hear you guys on this one. I started out Ret and switched our to Prot once I found a really good shield in the mid-30s. Been Prot ever since and have loved it. Unfortunately, it looks like Blizzard has no real place for end-game pally's. Until this new patch, it looked like Holy was the way to go based on our high level itemization and "best" talents. Now, Blizzard is forcing everyone into the Prot tree, by nerfing Holy and not buffing Ret. The unfortunate thing is that Pally's have to work much harder than feral druids and warriors in end-game to tank any place beyond the 5mans. I'm hoping 2.1 patch gets altered, otherwise it could look like some dark days ahead...

PS - love my pally, but Blizzard needs to show us some too

Check out the WoW forums to notice the end game content and how pallies measure up. Unfortunately it is not in a paladin's favor. They are third in line behind feral druids, who are able to push CBs off the table easier than pallies (which is an effort of its own to get to uncrushable), plus we have far less hit points. While paladins are fun to play, right now they are being left behind from getting tanking spots in the 25mans for Kara and beyond. Our best trait for tanking is multi mobs and aggro. But for the big bad bosses, we're supposed to step aside for the warriors and druids

We had a prot spec'd Pally tanking in a 25 man raid.. IF your looking to the be MT in a 25 man raid then your probably out of luck.. that will probably go to a well geared Prot warrior or a really well geared Feral Druid.

But most of the time you need at least 1 if not 2 OT's to tank and a Pally Prot tank can do just fine.

And while Kara is mostly about 1 MT in the encounters where multiple tanks are needed again we've done just fine with a Pally tank.

I started out as a Ret Pally when I started hearing and seeing of the benefits of Prot - tried a new path, Rekabution (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=aZVztcMhdgZVdxt0buV0o), we'll see how this respec goes. So far tanks pretty well, and can DPS with a gear switch to take individual baddies down quick.

What I've noticed most, is that with tanking, keeping up RA and BoW, and judging SoL I end every encounter full mana and health (one on one). Tanking in a group has been pretty easy to maintain aggro with RA and SoR (or SoC). I'm still working through the possible combinations, there's so many of them depending on the situation, I think that flexibility can be one of our main strengths...

Shockadin through and through.

Thats common knowledge.. check any decent Pally tanking forum thread.. and you'll see discussions about stacking Defense to get uncrittable.

Also.. your falling for the new Blizzard Math when it comes to item stats..

I forget what the exact conversion for Defense is.. but download an addon called Ratings Buster and it will show the exact conversion at your level to the old math.

Dear god... I finally bit the bullet and respecced my main to 10/41/10. The first thing I did is try out the theory of being able to AoE farm. My jaw just fell to the ground. I went to Netherstorm and started farming Sunfury Researchers (level 67-68). I could pull 5 of them at one time and beat them down without a sweat with half my hp bar remaining. That is absolutely incredible! I certainly could not beat down 5 mobs in a row, one at the time, in the same period of time, as a Ret Pally. I'm afraid Prot may be getting a nerf in the future, but my last element of class envy just went into the wind.

Protection is the only way to go at higher lvls in my opinion, unless you want to be a healer. I havent been Retribution for ahwile now, and there has been no looking back. When im soloing in outlands i make it a point to pull at least 2 mobs, sometimes 3 or 4. When Reckoning starts proccing, even a Rogue cant keep up with that kind of DPS, not to mention take the same amount of damage we can. The people who say Protection spec is boring are only pulling single mobs to fight, this does take longer, and i can see that being boring. It didnt take me long to figure that out.

Moondragon protection is getting a little nerf in the new patch, but its not going to hurt that much. Ardent Defender will go from at 20% health reducing damage by 50% to at 35% percent health reducing damage by 30%. I personally like the fact its going to kick in sooner, so im not that upset about it. And the one handed talent is getting nerfed from 10% extra damage to 5% extra damage. Thats not to bad either. I dont see anything else in the protection tree being nerfed anytime soon, so i think were safe.

Glad to see you tried out the Protection tree, and im glad your enjoying it!

By the way my spec at Lvl 68 is 10/49/0, i dont think any points in Ret is worth it when you can add them to protection making better an allready bad ass build even better with the points spent there.

I'm in the same boat, only I don't see it as being a nerf at all. Sure, 50% reduction is awesome, but when it's kicking in that much sooner, I think it's much better overall.

And yea, Prot paladins pretty much own.

Pull a bunch of mobs, and then start getting critted. Reckoning charges build up, and you drop them on the mobs. Since you can pretty much go for as long as you have mana, you can pull 5-6 mobs and once, tag them with consecration, and kill them with little/no risk involved.

Something I just thought about after getting home and looking at the Ret tree.. Deflection seems to be quite worthwhle taking as a Prot pally. 5% mitigation is nothing to sneeze at IMO.

I'm 13/48/0 and I've been MTing the 5-mans just fine, even before I hit 70, though holding aggro from a 70 rogue/mage at 68 is impossible, I can tank the 5-mans, though I do need better gear for the level 70 instances.

I can also MH the 5-mans I've been asked to heal in, though I haven't tried the level 70 5-mans.

I love Prot, and this is the first time I've been in sync with Blizzard's "adjustments".
When Ret was overpowered, I was holy with a dash of prot.
Then when Ret got nerfed and holy got buffed, I was Ret with a dash of Prot.
Then when there was no chance in hell a Pally could MT anything, I was full Prot with a dash of holy.

I have a feeling that Blizzard is going to try to bring us back to the original "tanky" description. I'd look for a HP-pool increase to bring us more in line with Warriors and maybe a minor Ret boost so our DPS is worthwhile.
Just a feeling I had.

But yeah, Prot pallies last forever and don't die often.
Of course, it also takes us forever to kill anything, so it evens out.

When grinding, if I'm fighting fewer than 3 mobs at a time, it's waaaaaaay too slow. 2 I can deal with because I can usually find a 3rd nearby, but when they are spread so far that you can't drag 1 close enough to get a 2nd, it's time to find another spot.
3 at a time if perfect grindage, 4 is manageable, 5 is a bit stressful, 6 makes me change strategy.
So 1 on 1, kinda boring.

Whoa, a post by the duck! What's up!

So I played last night under the 10 days free offer, and despite needing a respec to take advantage of some of the recent talent changes, I tried the AoE grinding described above - pulled three mobs, auto-attacking one, Holy Shield up all the time, and spamming Consecration.

I pretty much neglected Seals and Judgments the whole time, which was a vastly different experience from the way I'm used to playing. Thoughts? It seems to me that the way to go right now is to try to put the most points into skills that increase survivability without using mana.

Next time I play, I plan to go get that respec.

First, don't spam Consecrate. That's fine in instances when you need extra threat, or when you have 5 or 6 and need a boost, but I _never_ spam it. (Ok, that's not true. When helping Peec's alt in dungeons/quests, I will, but that's because it really is 10 times faster to Consecrate 10 mobs.) Your downtime will be horrendous, as it's very mana inefficient.

Second, always, always, always have a judgement and a seal up. For grinding, I like JoW + SoR, judging SoR every time it's up.

For sequence, be sure to start Holy Shield _before_ your initial judgement (wis, light, crusader). Why? Timing and the Global Cooldown.

If you Seal, Pull, Judge, HS, then when the timers are up, you are ready to Judge+Seal before HS, making HS wait on the GCD.
If you Seal, Pull, HS, THEN Judge, when the timers are up, you refresh HS and _immediately_ Judge (Judgement is NOT on the GCD, meaning it can fit in the tiny bit of time between HS and a new Seal being ready) - lastly, refresh the seal.

Also, be sure to have Ret Aura up for grinding, and if you're doing well on mana management, go with BoSanc for a tad more damage.

Buy the best water you can use or have a mage friend hook you up. Keep bandages around - in hostile territory, I'd rather bandage+drink after a long fight than heal+drink and get jumped with no mana.
Also, if you are doing well, you don't need to drink at all or heal at all. Do a few fights, and when you get below 40% on health or mana, do a single or double pull and JoW+SoW or JoL+SoL to end the fight with more mana or health than you started while not stopping the grind. I also use this on the last mob of a 3-4 pull sometimes, or - especially - when I get into trouble and need a little healing boost.

Don't forget to Aura-dance if you get in trouble and really need to get that heal off. Also, if you're OOM and low on health, use LoH. I used to never use it, thinking I was saving it for when I really needed to save someone. If you raid, that's fine. Save it for the MT. If you're not raiding, use it whenever you need it.

What else?
In short, don't spam Consecrate, always use a refreshable Judgement on every mob you're autoattacking, always have a Seal up, Ret Aura + BoSanc + HS (+ Shield Spike) = lots of reactive/passive damage, it'll feel like you're going slower than you should, but it just seems that way. If you're OOM after every 3 mob pull, work on efficiency.

Most of all, have fun. If HS grinding isn't fun for you, don't do it. I love it, but it's not for everyone.