Instance arrogance.

Nine Lives of Doom
PurEvil's picture
Location: Columbia, MD

Last night I was trying to level up my hunter's cooking skill, so I headed to Westfall (there's just no better place to level your cooking when you're sub-50 skill). While gathering up goretusk livers and boar meat, I happened to see a group looking for a 5th to roll on Deadmines in the lookingforgroup channel that I glance at from time to time. I cycle my alts through my head (rogue, shaman, druid, warrior) and decide to take the rogue since she hasn't killed VC yet. Something always seems to go wrong with her there.

So, I give the spamming guy my rogue's name, and log her on. I'm in Duskwood, so after a short flight and a little run, I'm with the group and we're on our way.

Group composition: Rogue, paladin, druid, 2 priests. Pretty decent layout in my opinion. I was the highest at 22, the rest were either 19 or 20, except for the druid who I believe was either 17 or 18. Perfect levels for me getting good XP outta the ride.

So we start into it, and I immediately realize that there's little point in sapping because the pally is breaking it first almost every single time. I'm pulling with my bow for the most part, so I'm still able to control how many we take on. We blow through most of the instance with little to no trouble.

We get all the way to the ship, and take out cookie. Then we head back around and start up the ramps. Now, I've just accepted that any group I'm in will agro the captain when going up that last ramp. It's damn near a given. And, of course, one of the priests standing at the bottom gets flameblasted, so I run to the wheel and tell the group to meet me there, or we'd wipe. The paladin and one of the priests follows me, but the druid and the priest that agro'd tried to run for it. They die, as just about anyone would expect.

So, we get them rez'd, and try again. This time the other priest runs up the ramp and tries to pull a mob up there, right as the captain is walking by. I see it, call out to the group again, and run to the wheel. This time both priests and the pally make it to me, but the druid is frozen before she can make it. We rez her.

At this point, I have a heated... discussion with the priest who pulled agro the first time:

Priest: How the F are we pulling the captain?
Me: He can be agro'd if someone, below a certain level, is standing or fighting on the ramp. If the person is low enough (below 17), they can agro him from the middle platform. It happens pretty often.
Priest: I've run this instance more times than you ever could have, and I've never seen it happen.

Well, this ticked me off, so I replied, "Believe me or don't, I'm not the one agro'ing him and I'm not the one dying."

Of course, the priest drops group right before the last boss. Jerk. We take down the captain and make a couple tries at VC, but we just don't have the DPS ability to deal with the guards fast enough to keep the tank (druid) alive. After a couple tries, I log Vel because I know we won't be able to take him out without some kind of switch (might have been possible with my 22 shaman, would have easily killed him with my 32 hunter), but the rest of the instance had started to respawn, so I needed to clear it out for them before we could do anything anyway.

Why oh why can't my rogue get into a group that can kill him? I think I'm going to have to get someone to just twink run me through.

I hope that priest agro's the captain every single time from now on.

IronClad Online: PurEvil

I Can Has Manga?
Donator V2.0
AnimeJ's picture
Location: The skies of Norkia

Actually, I'll believe that he's run it more times than you. Mainly because he's probably wiped more groups doing it than you could ever dream of, and he/she/it/r-tard keeps going back for more.

Anyway, I feel your pain. I see it all the time on Azjol Nerub-H in groups that I've run with. I've pretty much gotten to the point where I don't even worry about trying to PUG anything on my alts, I just ask a guildie or someone on my FL if they'd mind giving me a twink run.

Coldstream wrote:

Sands, S. & Murdoch, J.; New England Journal of Medicine. Why Guys Dig Chicks Who Kill Violently Kill Stuff Nov, 2008; pp 65-68.

Coffee Grinder
TonyBone's picture
Location: Willow Grove, PA

This is largely why I never run VC, nor any instance prior to the 40s starting with SM. The hastle of PUGs is such a pain and the margin for error in the lower instances just seems too tight. Couple this with the fact that you outgrow any gear you get there rather quickly and I personally find little reason to bother with it. Guild runs are another thing altogether, but PUGs for lowbie runs...no thanks, I'm good.

"And thus I clothe my naked villany with odd old ends stol'n forth of Holy Writ, and seem a saint when most I play the devil." ~ William Shakespeare

Tunneler of Doom
Donator V2.0

Trashidawa, doctre and I were in a Black Rock Depths instance group the other night. Two pickupgroup members, one of which was a warlock who kept sending in his pet to attack even though Trashidawa was marking the kills. Marking the kills gives everyone a common target when there are multiple enemies, so we can focus dps, drop groups of enemies faster, control aggro and manage heals a bit more efficiently.

Trashidawa asked him once to focus on the marked kill (skull icon over its head). He ignored and did his own 'thang', a couple more times. After clearing a couple more monster groups, Trashidawa asked the warlock again to attack the marked mob, which resulted in the very dramatic:

Warlock: "If you tell me one more time how to play my class, I'm leaving." which left me laughing. We weren't saying anything about playing his class, just trying to get him in-sync on the party hunting method.

Anyways we dropped him pretty immediately and Hanta came to our rescue, though we later learned we werent quite ready for BRD.

Xbox Live: Irongut | Playstation ID: Irongut_GWJ

Nine Lives of Doom
PurEvil's picture
Location: Columbia, MD

While I agree with those points, Tony, the lower instances are fairly good for XP if you don't care for area questing, and you're not really interested in loot. For the most part, even failing to finish Deadmines with my rogue last night was still an accomplishment... I leveled her, got two new skills I'd been waiting for (vanish and distract), and picked up several greens I was able to DE afterwards.

I typically don't bother with the stocks because there's just nothing decent that comes out of that instance, but I really need to start running Gnomer with my hunter. I remember that I didn't replace a couple items I got outta there with my mage until she was in her 50's, because everything I could find were only side-grades, not upgrades.

IronClad Online: PurEvil

I Can Has Manga?
Donator V2.0
AnimeJ's picture
Location: The skies of Norkia

While I'm not certain on it's zone specifity, I have gotten a decent 3agi/3stam ring out of stockades. Defias Renegade Ring if you want to look it up on Thott/Alla.

As to lowbie instances, Pur is very correct in that they can be outstanding XP, especially from the quest turn ins. That alone is why I generally make every effort to hit them up on my alts, if for no other reason than to run them once for quest completion. If you're picky enough and can find someone to hook you up with twink runs, then you can generally come away with the drops you're after, a decent chunk of XP, and the higher level friend will come away with several gold in coin drop and cloth for the AH.

Personally, 90% of why I enjoy WoW as much as I do, and why I've played as long as I have is for instances. Running them for the first time, learning the ins and outs are things I find interesting and exciting, and as such I continue to do them. But hey, YMMV.

Coldstream wrote:

Sands, S. & Murdoch, J.; New England Journal of Medicine. Why Guys Dig Chicks Who Kill Violently Kill Stuff Nov, 2008; pp 65-68.

Junior Executive
Donator V2.0
Trashie's picture
Location: Wisco

In my two years playing WoW, I've yet to finish Wailing Caverns. That place has some serious bad pickup group mojo.

Xbox Live: Trashie

Candlelight Bard
ShadeRaven's picture

I have had the same experiences with DM/VC, but the last time through was with my Priest (Aesildur) in a group of 4 (all of us 19-21) that was very educational and made the effort well worth it. I learned a lot about my class as well as about DM (including the cannon or wheel trick - which I wouldn't have thought of on my own). We got wiped twice and had to take 5 tries at it, but we eventually did it.

Ironically, I love the Stockades. Not because of the loot, but because of the quests. For a short run, if you have done DM and all the lead-up quests, it worth more XP in a shorter time than any other place I have gone (my XP per hour w/ quests when I go through the whole thing is usually 60k or higher). The reward on one of the quests is a ring I remember wearing with Sunseeker until my 40s. Of course, that makes it a one-and-done instance, but for that one shot, it's worth it.

Valleja and I were tempted to try a PUG for some of these higher instances, but luckily, it didn't come to that when Gloigan & Zandrise logged on this weekend and we took on the Sunken Temple. We looked for a 5th and it ended up being Tador, so didn't really learn all that much other than the general feel/layout for the instance. Would be interesting to try again, although based on what I saw with Tador, it seems like it would be a rather long instance for a group on the edge of being able to do. I did take notes on things like the idols, so at least that's ready.

On our horizon now is BRD, Scholo, and Strat. Hopefully, we can group up with guildies and experience these in the near future, too. Heading over to Outlands is certainly tempting, but I feel like I would be robbing myself of seeing some of the original content by skipping right to the expansion.

4E D&D Campaign: Valley of Shrouds
Steam Community: ShadeRaven

Junior Executive
Donator V4.0
BadMojo's picture
Location: Right behind you.

I hate being in a group with a backseat healer. It doesn't matter what class it is, I don't enjoy people telling me how to play the game. I am always open to suggestions, especially if things are not going well. But when we're buzzing through an instance, things are going well, I don't want to hear about how I am not specced right, or I'm not using a certain heal enough, or how my plus heal isn't high enough to ever seriously be a healer.

To those people I say, "learn to play". That's right, "LEARN TO PLAY". As in, learn how to work with other people and not throw a tantrum when you see a hunter not playing the same way your friend plays a hunter. Learn how to make suggestions that you think might help without telling someone they are a retard and a moron. Learn how to respect other people's opinions even if you know you are right. Learn to let people explore the game without having some asshat in an instance shove the game down their throat right from level 70-land.

Learn to play with others.

-Bad Mojo

And man that dog looks like he's having a good time, but that monkey is f*cking into it. This isn't his recreation; this is his life and he knows it in a way I will never know anything. --Danjo Olivaw

Candlelight Bard
ShadeRaven's picture

I agree with BadMojo, 100%. I might even add an addendum to his "learn to play" suggestion: "let me learn how to play, too". It's perhaps the only intimidating thing about WoW in our relatively brief experience with it. Valleja and Sunseeker are now level 58, and I consider us pretty quick learners when it comes to games like this. That said, we are still very new compared to many out here. When I read relatively heated discussions by people like AnimeJ and TheGameguru where DPS, specs, and items are tossed about with maximum efficiency in mind, I think "uh oh... we are going to be over our heads trying to group with those folks."

Don't get me wrong, though. There has been nothing like that at all directed our way in game, but as Val and I approach the levels of others, not having the "best build", "best equipment", or in-depth knowledge of instances is a bit foreboding.

Of course, good people are why we joined GWJ Alliance & Blackhand, so I am sure any apprehension is wasted energy and it won't interfere with our desire to continue our progress towards group-ability.

And it should be noted that I really enjoy reading the discussions on good specs, desired items, and instance discussions that pop up now and again (not to mention insights given on-line). I sometimes even understand them

4E D&D Campaign: Valley of Shrouds
Steam Community: ShadeRaven

Consultant
Donator
mven's picture

ShadeRaven wrote:
When I read relatively heated discussions by people like AnimeJ and TheGameguru where DPS, specs, and items are tossed about with maximum efficiency in mind, I think "uh oh... we are going to be over our heads trying to group with those folks."

Don't bump into too much of that until you get into raiding really. Then it's all you hear. When people start looking at meters to figure out who they want to replace and who is kicking ass and taking names it gets even worse. IMO this is typically the worst with DPS classes and Healers. (Especially Priests, Rogues, Mages, and the occasional DPS Warrior). Having spent most of my raiding time on a rogue I've seen people do all kinds of cheesy sh*t to stay on top of these meters. It's pretty ridiculous.

Instance snobs always cracked me up especially in 5 mans. I usually combat their stupidity by insisting on pulling no matter what class I am playing. This is probably why warriors are my favorite class in a 5 man. You can completely control how most instances flow and minimize people doing stupid sh*t. There really is no way to prevent all of it, some people just can't help but suck all the while telling everyone and their mother how to play their respective classes. "I have epics I know this instance better than you!" "Really then why are you dying over and over again while I am still managing to kick your ass on the dmg meter" "... /hearth"

BadMojo wrote:
As in, learn how to work with other people and not throw a tantrum when you see a hunter not playing the same way your friend plays a hunter.

The lesson here is that all hunters are typically lazy bastards who just turn on autoshot in instances and coast along!

PIE MASTER
fangblackbone's picture
Location: bay area

I made it almost to the ship with an f'd up pug with my shammy. I was so on my toes because we had a cast happy and panic happy mage that was of course at the bare minimum level for dead mines.

I take pride in those events despite when we finally wiped, the group disbanded. I was running like a madman when the party would split and move out of line of sight for my heals. It was almost like this was a test to see if I was ready to be a healer in a raiding guild.

You should have seen the fight in the shredder room with the idiots taking on 4-5 of the elite goblins at a time. Not to mention the mage prancing around the mine shafts and aggroing every miner. Oh its a dam good thing shammies get shields because my leather was well worn and hadnt seen an upgrade in 5 levels.

Still I was able to get complete boobs to the engineering room before the ship. Not a bad effort at all.

Being fangoriously devoured by a gelatinous monster.

Office Linebacker
Demonicmaster's picture
Location: Pennsylvania

mven wrote:

The lesson here is that all hunters are typically lazy bastards who just turn on autoshot in instances and coast along!


Choose your words carefully, for they may be your last...No really please don't make an assumption that ALL Hunters are lazy. I am a very busy Hunter setting up pulls and marking targets in my raid. In Ramparts I can pull the patrolling Orc and dogs before I pull every other group upstairs. From what I hear that is a somewhat hard thing to do. When ever I get up there and say I am pulling the pat people scream NO!!. I tell them to chill and when I have successfully pulled the pat and frozen the Orc we take the dogs and people breath a sigh of relief.
Now I will agree with you that yes there are many lazy Hunters out there that will start a boss fight (Ragnaros as an example) and go away for the 3 minutes until the sons show up. I know I don't do that, because I like when Rag yells all his funny sayings and turn my speakers up loud. In TBC Hunters really can't turn on Autoshot and then walk away. Most of the fights are too dynamic to just stay stationary.

Fathgar - Feathermoon

wordsmythe - "Jesus would drive a Hummer and burn as much oil as possible, since the dinosaurs it's made out of seem to be confusing people.

Bilge Cat
Donator V2.0
Farscry's picture
Location: Commanding at the Helm

ShadeRaven wrote:
Don't get me wrong, though. There has been nothing like that at all directed our way in game, but as Val and I approach the levels of others, not having the "best build", "best equipment", or in-depth knowledge of instances is a bit foreboding.

Of course, good people are why we joined GWJ Alliance & Blackhand, so I am sure any apprehension is wasted energy and it won't interfere with our desire to continue our progress towards group-ability.

I'm totally with you guys on that. I'm pretty clueless about a lot of things and continue to learn more and more about how to play better. I can't count the number of times I've felt that I'm the guy making things go wrong in an instance with my fellow GWJ Alliance members. Dungeons and teamplay are intimidating to me. That's partly why I tend to solo a lot, that and that I have such an unpredictable play schedule these days. But every time I've teamed up with the GWJ crew, I've had a lot of fun, and they don't seem to get too mad at my embarassing blunders.

Office Linebacker
Demonicmaster's picture
Location: Pennsylvania

Farscry wrote:
ShadeRaven wrote:
Don't get me wrong, though. There has been nothing like that at all directed our way in game, but as Val and I approach the levels of others, not having the "best build", "best equipment", or in-depth knowledge of instances is a bit foreboding.

Of course, good people are why we joined GWJ Alliance & Blackhand, so I am sure any apprehension is wasted energy and it won't interfere with our desire to continue our progress towards group-ability.

I'm totally with you guys on that. I'm pretty clueless about a lot of things and continue to learn more and more about how to play better. I can't count the number of times I've felt that I'm the guy making things go wrong in an instance with my fellow GWJ Alliance members. Dungeons and teamplay are intimidating to me. That's partly why I tend to solo a lot, that and that I have such an unpredictable play schedule these days. But every time I've teamed up with the GWJ crew, I've had a lot of fun, and they don't seem to get too mad at my embarrassing blunders.


I think nothing beats my blunder when I had my pet out and jumped down into Ren's Arena in UBRS and it ran around the right hand side and pulled all the mobs to the right as we started the arena fight. It was a glorious wipe and I didn't live that down for a couple weeks after. But it was with my guild and they were understanding about the situation.

Fathgar - Feathermoon

wordsmythe - "Jesus would drive a Hummer and burn as much oil as possible, since the dinosaurs it's made out of seem to be confusing people.

Kill Maim Destroy
Troll's picture
Location: In the Fatherland, petting the nipple.

mven wrote:
The lesson here is that all hunters are typically lazy bastards who just turn on autoshot in instances and coast along!

Do I note a hint of jealousy here?

That which does not kill you, still hurts like Hell. - Anonymous Soldier
None of us is as dumb as ALL of us. - Anonymous Staff Officer
Veni, Vici, Ridebam, Discedebam - "I came, I saw, I laughed, I left"

Junior Executive
Donator V4.0
BadMojo's picture
Location: Right behind you.

mven wrote:

The lesson here is that all hunters are typically lazy bastards who just turn on autoshot in instances and coast along!

Why do you think I'm leveling a hunter next?

-Bad Mojo

And man that dog looks like he's having a good time, but that monkey is f*cking into it. This isn't his recreation; this is his life and he knows it in a way I will never know anything. --Danjo Olivaw

Consultant
Donator
mven's picture

My favorite hunter thing is when they accidentally pull bosses while everyone is buffing. "Sorry I accidentally hit "XXX hunter ability" with the boss targetted". Good times. How are hunters in the expansion? I felt kinda bad for them back when I was doing Naxx. We'd take max like 1-2 of them along and they would always get constant sh*t for being low on the dps meter. I guess that's what they get for their autoshot napping in 5 mans !

Kill Maim Destroy
Troll's picture
Location: In the Fatherland, petting the nipple.

mven wrote:
My favorite hunter thing is when they accidentally pull bosses while everyone is buffing. "Sorry I accidentally hit "XXX hunter ability" with the boss targetted". Good times.

Wow...did a Hunter break your heart or something? You sound bitter.

mven wrote:
and they would always get constant sh*t for being low on the dps meter. I guess that's what they get for their autoshot napping in 5 mans !

Strange...I was usually in the top 5 of the damage meter.

Regardless, come run with us on Blackhand sometime...learn what Hunter Love is all about.

That which does not kill you, still hurts like Hell. - Anonymous Soldier
None of us is as dumb as ALL of us. - Anonymous Staff Officer
Veni, Vici, Ridebam, Discedebam - "I came, I saw, I laughed, I left"

Nine Lives of Doom
PurEvil's picture
Location: Columbia, MD

Troll wrote:

Regardless, come run with us on Blackhand sometime...learn what Hunter Love is all about.

So is that what breaking sheep is called?

IronClad Online: PurEvil

they charge per letter
pol's picture
Location: Charlottesville, VA

Quote:
My favorite hunter thing is when they accidentally pull bosses while everyone is buffing. "Sorry I accidentally hit "XXX hunter ability" with the boss targetted".

how is this a hunter thing again? Fat fingers are not a "class issue."

Kill Maim Destroy
Troll's picture
Location: In the Fatherland, petting the nipple.

PurEvil wrote:
Troll wrote:

Regardless, come run with us on Blackhand sometime...learn what Hunter Love is all about.

So is that what breaking sheep is called?

Now that's funny.

That which does not kill you, still hurts like Hell. - Anonymous Soldier
None of us is as dumb as ALL of us. - Anonymous Staff Officer
Veni, Vici, Ridebam, Discedebam - "I came, I saw, I laughed, I left"

Bilge Cat
Donator V2.0
Farscry's picture
Location: Commanding at the Helm

BadMojo wrote:
Why do you think I'm leveling a hunter next?

I figure your avatar answers that sufficiently.

Nine Lives of Doom
PurEvil's picture
Location: Columbia, MD

Farscry wrote:
BadMojo wrote:
Why do you think I'm leveling a hunter next?

I figure your avatar answers that sufficiently.

Yup... you're obviously trying to reach Rank 7 loyalty there.

IronClad Online: PurEvil

The Gaming Gourmet
Donator V3.0
DevilStick's picture
Location: Middle Tyriazeroth

Farscry wrote:
BadMojo wrote:
Why do you think I'm leveling a hunter next?

I figure your avatar answers that sufficiently.

He's hunting for love... in all the wrong places.

Your Quote Here!

Junior Executive
Donator V4.0
BadMojo's picture
Location: Right behind you.

Farscry wrote:
BadMojo wrote:
Why do you think I'm leveling a hunter next?

I figure your avatar answers that sufficiently.

You can't TAME sheep! Honestly.

-Bad Mojo

And man that dog looks like he's having a good time, but that monkey is f*cking into it. This isn't his recreation; this is his life and he knows it in a way I will never know anything. --Danjo Olivaw

Bilge Cat
Donator V2.0
Farscry's picture
Location: Commanding at the Helm

Dwarven hunters ram it up the baa-aackside.

Nine Lives of Doom
PurEvil's picture
Location: Columbia, MD

BadMojo wrote:
Farscry wrote:
BadMojo wrote:
Why do you think I'm leveling a hunter next?

I figure your avatar answers that sufficiently.

You can't TAME sheep! Honestly.

Well... maybe you should be a warlock instead then. I can't tell you the number of times I've had one of my sheep seduced by a warlock.

IronClad Online: PurEvil

Junior Executive
Donator V4.0
BadMojo's picture
Location: Right behind you.

PurEvil wrote:
BadMojo wrote:
Farscry wrote:
BadMojo wrote:
Why do you think I'm leveling a hunter next?

I figure your avatar answers that sufficiently.

You can't TAME sheep! Honestly.

Well... maybe you should be a warlock instead then. I can't tell you the number of times I've had one of my sheep seduced by a warlock.

Jealous?

-Bad Mojo

And man that dog looks like he's having a good time, but that monkey is f*cking into it. This isn't his recreation; this is his life and he knows it in a way I will never know anything. --Danjo Olivaw

Goes to 11
Donator V5.0
hubbinsd's picture
Location: The Circus of Values

My favorite, as a rogue, is when I'm attacking something and a mage sheeps it without warning, and when the sheep breaks a half second later I get yelled at for breaking the sheep.

Xbox Live: hubbinsd

Office Linebacker
Demonicmaster's picture
Location: Pennsylvania

mven wrote:
My favorite hunter thing is when they accidentally pull bosses while everyone is buffing. "Sorry I accidentally hit "XXX hunter ability" with the boss targetted". Good times. How are hunters in the expansion? I felt kinda bad for them back when I was doing Naxx. We'd take max like 1-2 of them along and they would always get constant sh*t for being low on the dps meter. I guess that's what they get for their autoshot napping in 5 mans !

You really want to start a fight it seems. I really don't want to start a fight but that attitude that seems be developing is starting to annoy me. So you had some bad experiences with Hunters in the past. I have had numerous cases of Warriors/Pallies running off and doing the pulling when I should have been and said I was going to and they end up wiping the group. Honestly that is what Hunters were designed to do. They were designed to pull. The group sits back a safe distance and if the Hunter pulls bad he can Feign Death and reset the mobs or if he were to die then everyone else would not get aggro'ed in the process. So it would just leave a repair bill for the Hunter, which IMO would teach the Hunter not to make a bad pull unless he wanted to pay for it. But for other reasons Hunters have gotten a bad rep and I am sick of it. One of the main reasons Hunters weren't really allowed in Naxx is that our gear started to be little more than sidegrades after BWL. Also don't get me started on weapon comparisons. Even though Thunderfury can be used by a Hunter I have yet to see it on one. Hunters got shafted on those for the most part. There were few range weapons that would be given to Hunters over a Warrior/Rogue.

The Expansion gave Hunters a breath of fresh air so they could deal more damage and be more productive in a group no matter the size. Now I will still say I have seen some piss poor Hunters but I have also seen the flip side as well. I am not trying to bolster myself that I am an all powerful Hunter, I am just trying to point out that Hunters have always gotten the short end of the stick ever since the class was introduced. (BTW Hunters were the last class to be implemented in the World of Warcraft beta and were never really finished to be a more rounded out class like the others)

Fathgar - Feathermoon

wordsmythe - "Jesus would drive a Hummer and burn as much oil as possible, since the dinosaurs it's made out of seem to be confusing people.