Oh Iran, You So Cray-Zay!
Wednesday, December 13th, 2006 - 6:18am
Any conference with David Duke, that's GOTTA be a keeper.
Quote:
Iran's foreign minister has rejected criticism of a two-day conference being held in Iran to examine whether the Holocaust actually happened.Manouchehr Mottaki told participants the event did not seek to confirm or deny the Holocaust, but rather to allow people to "express their views freely".
Israel's prime minister has condemned the gathering as "a sick phenomenon".
President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has questioned the scale of the Holocaust, in which six million Jews died.
According to the foreign ministry in Tehran, 67 researchers from 30 countries are attending the conference in Iran, which is home to 25,000 Jews.
Participants include a number of well-known "revisionist" Western academics. American David Duke, a former leader of the Ku Klux Klan, is to present a paper.
But a number of Jewish rabbis are also there. One, British Rabbi Ahron Cohen, said he had come to the conference to put the "Orthodox Jewish viewpoint" across.
"We certainly say there was a Holocaust, we lived through the Holocaust. But in no way can it be used as a justification for perpetrating unjust acts against the Palestinians," he said.
'Express views freely'
Opening the conference, Mr Mottaki said the aim of the conference was "not to deny or confirm the Holocaust".
"Its main aim is to create an opportunity for thinkers who cannot express their views freely in Europe about the Holocaust," he said.
Mr Mottaki dismissed foreign criticism as "predictable", telling delegates there was "no logical reason" to oppose the conference.
In a recorded address broadcast to the nation, President Ahmadinejad questioned why the West would not allow "any investigation" into the Holocaust.
Mr Ahmadinejad has repeatedly downplayed the extent of the Holocaust, describing it as a myth used to justify the existence of Israel and oppression of the Palestinians. He has called for Israel to be dismantled.
But in a number of European countries - including Germany, Austria and France - it is illegal to deny the Holocaust. An Austrian court jailed Briton David Irving for three years on charges of Holocaust denial.
'Negative impression'
Israel's Prime Minister Ehud Olmert condemned the conference as "a sick phenomenon that shows the depths of hatred of the fundamentalist Iranian regime".
Norbert Lammert, president of the German parliament, sent a letter to Mr Ahmadinejad criticising the event.
"I condemn any attempt to offer anti-Semitic propaganda a public forum under the pretext of scientific freedom and objectivity," he wrote.
A number of prominent Holocaust historians are attending a rival gathering taking place in Berlin, backed by the German government, in protest at the Tehran conference.
The US state department last week described the Iranian event as "yet another disgraceful act on this particular subject by the regime in Tehran".
Iran knows this conference is going to cause outrage abroad but it says it wants to test the limits of the West's commitment to freedom of speech, says the BBC's correspondent in Tehran, Frances Harrison.
Iran is drawing a parallel with the Danish cartoons depicting the Prophet Muhammad, which provoked outrage in the Islamic world but were defended by Western liberals, she says.
Iran's one Jewish MP, Morris Motamed, told the BBC he opposed the conference.
"Holding this conference after having a competition of cartoons about the Holocaust has put a lot of pressure on Jews all over the world and it can give nations and governments a very negative impression of Iran," he said.
Quote:
Some might choose to pray, some might choose to snooze
But the style that I use is the style that's mine
XBL Tag: Prederick
Oh, they're soooo tough. Showing off to the Evil Jewish West to obscure the faulty economy is what this is.
Roo: "Just to cheer you up if any of the above made you sad: Boobies."
Koning_Floris, on my online 'skills': "Stinking is a skill too!"
I wonder if this is why Olmert "accidentally" let slip that Isreal has nukes...
Unfortunately, if I slash my wrist with my lightsaber it cauterizes instantly. - PurEvil on emo Star Wars plots.
As someone descended from people that fled Europe during the Holocaust (and some that weren't quite so lucky), I see nothing wrong with this conference, in and of itself. We're all assuming they're going to conclude that the Holocaust never happened and is just a Jewish plot, just because that's what their president thinks. Look at America; do you think OUR president's opinions have anything to do with the opinions of national scholars and theorists? Let's hold off the outrage for if and when they present a conclusion that's obviously wrong and dangerous.
While I do think the formation of Israel was a good idea and that the nation certainly has a right to exist, I also agree that the complaints of the Palestinians are at least partially legitimate. The Holocaust and anti-Semitism are very sensitive topics; we do everyone a disservice to refuse to discuss those issues and the conditions that gave rise to them, as well as their effects, both intentional and unintentional.
That said, this does have the appearance of a political statement, albeit a slightly more tactful one than the "Holocaust Comic" contest from a while back (something which I find deplorable). Ultimately, Iran has every right to hold this conference (and that contest, for that matter), no matter how disgusting these gestures may be. Isn't freedom all about the right to express ideas, no matter how abhorrent, hurtful or wrong? How can America proclaim to be spreading democracy and freedom in the Middle East and point to Iran as an obstacle to that, yet condemn a purely intellectual exercise just because it contains venemous ideas?
We have no right to interfere until we see Iran using these ideas to justify oppression.
NOTE: This is not a doodle bug.
Spore
sidenote: I was born and lived in Louisiana for 17 years. I met David Duke at one of our regular fishfry sundays. He was a tag-a-long, who was invited by a friend of a friend of a professional Mason (brick layer) who worked with my stepdad. Our fishfry with family and friends often included black and spanish co-workers of my mom and stepdad. As my grandfather said "We all muts made of the same dirt, blood, n' sh!t."
He was in town, "thinking bout runnin for govenor", and was in town where he knew people who knew people in local govt. I talked with him abit, because I was really into my civics class and always loved politics and history, and he seemed to know a bit about the subject. I thought he had some good ideas for the state, and the idea and context of race never entered our discussion.
He was nice, entertaining, socially engaging but not overbearing, and not once did he badmouth anyone there because of race. I had no idea he was in the Klan, a group I still know little about. I honestly remember we were all dancing, and he danced with my [black-skinned American, one generation from Immigrants from Trinidad] friend Donell's mother for a minute. Admittedly, I could be wrong, but I am not the only one who remembers it, and my mom swears she was dancing right next to them, and he was flirting and laughing and having a good time.
Later, I saw video footage of a political rally he was at, and it genuinely freaked me out. This guy was nothing like the person I met, though it was clearly the same man (from Bizarro world). It was like he had multiple personalities.
I never saw him again, nor did I want to. I still to this day think he is as my grandfather put it "wrong in the head son, in need of some med'sun."
I am not defending his postions at all, and maybe he's just REALLY slick, but he was a welcome guest to at least one of our regular fishfry, and he was nothing like I see now. I honestly feel the need to wash my hand when i think that at one time i shook his hand with a smile on my face.
freaky.
There is no reason why good cannot triumph as often as evil. The triumph of anything is a matter of organization. If there are such things as angels, I hope that they are organized along the lines of the Mafia. - Kurt Vonnegut
I think some would question that "right" LM.
I agree. Free speech is free speech, as well as freedom of thought and so forth. I can still say that people like David Duke are bigoted, narrow-minded fools who seek to hold humanity back. But he has the freedom to be that way, and I wouldn't want to see that freedom taken away, though I'd love to see those people become more enlightened.
However, oppression is different, and objectionable.
You're right, some people would say we never have any right to interfere.
NOTE: This is not a doodle bug.
Spore
Objectionable, yes. Objectionable enough to use force to change, highly debatable.
Where do we draw the line about what types of oppression are objectionable enough to justify us butting in? What will our defense be when we punish one country for oppression; but not another for the same kind of oppression?
Semper Delectatio
Xbox Live - Cannibal GWJ XFire - cannibalcrowley
Strawberry Shortcake bricked my 360 on December 17, 2008.
That they were threatening us with weapons of mass destruction, as well as oppressing their people?
"Sometimes I go around saying, 'Kommisar Paulson has seized the commanding heights of the economy!'" - Paul Krugman, asked if recent changes to banking are socialistic.
North Korea?
Semper Delectatio
Xbox Live - Cannibal GWJ XFire - cannibalcrowley
Strawberry Shortcake bricked my 360 on December 17, 2008.
Does DPRK have missiles that can reach the US?
As much as Iran does.
Semper Delectatio
Xbox Live - Cannibal GWJ XFire - cannibalcrowley
Strawberry Shortcake bricked my 360 on December 17, 2008.
Anyone who claims the Holocaust didn't happen is an idiot. I ran into a strong Holocaust denier on the early bulletin boards, well before the Internet came to my area, and I took the time to go to the library and read real physical books on the subject. There is a mountain of evidence that showed it happened. The people of that time investigated extremely carefully; the crime was so monstrous that they were incredibly detailed and careful in their documentation. There simply is no way that anyone with a brain could come away from those books with any other conclusion. The Holocaust happened, and it happened precisely as it is described. It is completely impossible for it to be a hoax or to be misinterpreted. It happened.
That said, I'm not certain it rated the creation of Israel against the wishes of the country's natives. And what's really frustrating about discussing Israel is that anytime anyone draws the conclusion that it's in the wrong, the anti-semitism card gets played. I remember arguing online with a former IRC friend about the picture of that kid and his father, both in a state of absolute terror, under fire from Israeli troops, who were both killed shortly thereafter. I told her, "Shooting children that aren't a direct threat is immoral behavior. It doesn't matter what the other side did." She told me, and this is a direct and literal quote: "Malor, Israel defines morality."
She stopped talking to me when I commented that the natural path for cultural assimilation is intermarriage; the natural way of things would be for the Jews and the Palestinians to intermarry until they're one culture. (probably Jewish, their culture is a lot stronger.) She was absolutely horrified by this idea; she seemed to think the Palestinians were subhuman. She accused me of anti-semitism and stopped talking to me anymore.
Palestine is a gigantic prison camp. It closely resembles the Warsaw Ghetto, and yet the Israelis seem incapable of understanding this. They do many of the same things that were done to them; their decision to starve out the government they don't like is eerily like the Nazis starving out the Warsaw Jews. It's a little less vicious, but not *that* much. They engage in targeted assassinations, killing people without a trial of any kind, and they punish groups for individual crimes. That last thing in particular was considered a war crime in WW2.
From my perspective, the abused have grown up to be the abusers.
And it's worth pointing out, in the 1967 war in which the disputed territory was seized... Israel shot first.
Edit: very slight wording improvement, same meaning.
Am I the only one here who sees an ironic parallel between the language used by the Iranians and the American fundamentalists who insist that they are just being "intellectually fair" when requiring that Creationism be taught alongside real science? This is exactly what happens when we allow religion, no matter what the origin of the religion, dictate the "truth".
This is the internet! In our natural environment, atheists run in packs and have dictionaries! --- JoeBeDurndurn
My father is a die-hard Republican and we discussed Israel once. He told me that Israel built an oasis in the desert and all the Palestinians can do is waste their money on weapons and try to blow up that oasis. So I asked him, how could he be so sure it wouldn't be Israel firing cardboard rockets into Palestine if Palestine had financial and military backing from the greatest superpower in history?
That shut him up.
I also read an article where the editor stated that there's a liberal media bias because we always hear that "Palestinian rockets killed X people" but "Israel killed Y people." I informed him that Palestinian weapons are largely dumbfire and are fired off in the general direction of a target, hitting things more or less randomly, whereas Israel's weapons are precision and guided, and only strike what their soldiers intend to hit. So perhaps a Palestinian rocket blowing up a civilian home doesn't have the same level of intent as an Israeli LGB blowing up a civilian home. Never heard back from him.
And your point is well taken, Paleocon. Somehow, the American public has come to accept that Muslim extremism and anti-Semitism is infinitely worse than Christian extremism and anti-Muslim sentiment.
NOTE: This is not a doodle bug.
Spore
So true, Paleocon. (I was sooo tempted to just post "Amen".
)
As I originally included in my screed, but then deleted for space... Israel is the best example of why it's important to keep church and state separate. A church with guns, an army that doesn't believe it can be in the wrong, is one of the scariest things I know. This particular comment applies to many Muslim governments as well. I just use Israel as the "best" example because they're a democracy and STILL doing all those terrible things.
It's incredibly important to be able to criticize the guys with the guns and not be jailed or killed for doing so. Religion, however, trumps all criticism.
Churches should never be allowed to have weapons. Make them fight it out with words.
Disclaimer: I do not question atrocities happened in the holocaust. I do not question the evil of those atrocities.
I do question how "accurate" some of those modern depictions of it are, but not to the point that I say I know better. Have any of you *ever* seen any group of people that are as coordinated as the German Nazis are supposed to have been, according to the history told. We have far better tools of communication, and the left hand still doesn't know what the right hand is doing. War is confusion, and I remain skeptical people can be that organized about ANYTHING.
...and I ESPECIALLY question accounts regurgitated by "tour guides" at "landmarks" like Auschwitz.
By time the U.S. got into Germany, they were in disarray. I suspect the people who did the forensics on the Nazi party made some assumptions based on what they saw, and heard, and what was confessed to them by war criminals. In the name of human decency, however, I will not isolate specific assumptions to question them, because the whole thing is discomforting and I am no authority on the history.
So, devious plotted deception by Jews? No.
Subject to data exception and assuption? Yes.
a sober admission of:
http://www.auschwitz-muzeum.oswiecim.pl/html/eng/aktualnosci/news_big.ph...
There is no reason why good cannot triumph as often as evil. The triumph of anything is a matter of organization. If there are such things as angels, I hope that they are organized along the lines of the Mafia. - Kurt Vonnegut
There's a huge difference between historians arguing over the details of how many victims died where and the people who seek to use those results for political or rhetorical purposes. The historians' interest is scholarly. Guys like David Duke have the goals of garden variety anti-semitism in mind.
It's amazing how motivating it is when you'll be shot if you don't comply.
However, the chance that the numbers are wrong never get discussed, do they? Even me asking that question feel that I will incur a backlash. So that gives these nutbars in Iran more weight. Wrongly of course but to impressionable people, it does. Better to talk very frankly about it now and take the wind out of the sails of the Irvines and the Dukes of this world.
On a side note, in Europe its just not discussed. Nevermind Germany or France's laws. Its not discussed. Period. Why you ask? Well at the time, and this is from both of my grandparents, everyone knew what was going on. The Allies knew in '42. A polish man commited suicide in London in '43 because of lack of action. The Allies knew where the camps were and ignored pleas to bomb them. Churchill himself asked other leaders to turn back Jewish refuges (In fairness Churchill did want to bomb Auschwitz). The guilt in Europe over this is still quite real and its the major reason why the "laws" are in place. If the Holocaust ever really get discussed, honestly and freely without emotion, a whole lot of countries are coming out looking very bad.
On another side note the best read on the Holocaust by a country mile is Art Spiegelman's "Maus". Far better than anything I've ever read on seen on the subject.
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Two wrongs (or three if you count Iraq who didn't have missiles to reach us) don't make a right.
Didn't Bush implement a "First strike doctrine".....? Saying that the US might go nuclear first against threats?
In the views of these demented nations they are just defending themselves, saying that if the US attacks they will retaliate. Honestly if you read a couple of Bush's speeches, who can fault them?