Suggest me some muti-track recording software/hardware
Wednesday, November 15th, 2006 - 6:14pm
So I've been meaning for years to get back to doing this, and I'd like some recommendations as to something user-friendly that will produce a good-quality track.
I have some things that might help; I have a copy of CuBase that I have found to be anything BUT intuitive, and an M-Audio Ozone controller that I was told would be a good way to get the input into my computer.
That said, I'm open to whatever has the easiest interface. I want to easily get my guitar's input into my computer and edit it. Bonus points for anything with a built-in drum machine; otherwise, a recommendation for a good software drum machine would be appreciated.
I guess I should mentiont that I'm looking to record plain old rock and roll. The main rhythm guitar will be acoustic, and I'm looking for some "real" sounding acoustic drum samples.
A few years ago, I had a really, really basic multi-track program that wasn't really intended to be used for music, but I made it work and recorded part of a hard rock song directly into my computer's onboard sound card. The results were much better than one would probably expect, but I'm looking for something that can give me results to really be proud of, with an interface that doesn't make things hard on me - writing and playing something worthwhile is enough work as-is! 
So, suggestions? I'm willing to throw the stuff I've got overboard if necessary. Software-wise, I'm wide open. Do I just need an Idiot's Guide to CuBase (if it exists), or is CakeWalk really a cakewalk?
I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, Podunk, but I'm sure there must be others with good ideas as well. Thanks!
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Would be a good idea. I plan to have Logan sit in for me when I am on my honeymoon.
- Legion, taking "keeping it in the family" to a whole new level.
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Thursday, November 16th, 2006 - 11:50am
Man, some great responses here! Thanks!
I think I need to further clarify. I am doing this as a hobby. I would like to end up with something that I would burn to CD and give to friends, etc., but I'm not looking to spend a ton (ie, $800).
As far as hardware goes, any decent solutions in the $100-200 range? And does anyone have any experience with an M-Audio Ozone? What IS it good for, anyway?
Also, in answer to someone's question, I know nothing of looping. I know nothing of sequencing. I'm looking to strictly record real instruments/voices and add a drum machine, and possibly the synth bass thing that Podunk mentioned. I'm really just looking for something very user friendly that will let me plug in my guitars and record them. I'd like to be able to do some editing of the sounds, such as adding reverb, etc., especially for the vocals, but that's about it.
Thanks for the help so far!
Quote:
Would be a good idea. I plan to have Logan sit in for me when I am on my honeymoon.
- Legion, taking "keeping it in the family" to a whole new level.
Xbox Live: Fedaykin98
Thursday, November 16th, 2006 - 12:04pm
I think the Presonus Firebox is your best bet then. It's a hundred bucks more than what you're looking to spend, but it's a great product. You might even look for a used one on Craig's List or something.
Are you gettin' there Rabbit, are you gettin' there now?
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Thursday, November 16th, 2006 - 12:19pm
The Ozone is a combo MIDI controller/MIDI interface/audio interface. It's not the sexiest thing, but it will definitely do what you need it to do. Now you just need a decent DAW app!
In your price range, you could go with Tracktion 2, Cubase SE, Cakewalk Guitar Tracks Pro, Cakewalk Sonar Home Studio or Cakewalk Sonar Home Studio XL. I'd just hit a retail site like www.sweetwater.com and search those listings. They've got pretty decent write-ups and customer reviews and stuff.
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Thursday, November 16th, 2006 - 2:55pm
Fedaykin98 wrote:
As far as hardware goes, any decent solutions in the $100-200 range?Also, in answer to someone's question, I know nothing of looping. I know nothing of sequencing. I'm looking to strictly record real instruments/voices and add a drum machine, and possibly the synth bass thing that Podunk mentioned. I'm really just looking for something very user friendly that will let me plug in my guitars and record them. I'd like to be able to do some editing of the sounds, such as adding reverb, etc., especially for the vocals, but that's about it.
Thanks for the help so far!
Given that, I think a Line 6 Tone Port has your name on it. ASIO support, guitar and vocal effects, cheap price. Combine that with my Reaper suggestion above and you've got a good entry level set up for under $250. Less than $200 if you get the TonePort UX1.
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Thursday, November 16th, 2006 - 2:59pm
But he's got an M-Audio Ozone, so he really doesn't need another audio interface unless he needs more mic pres or more simultaneous inputs or something.
The Toneport is a killer little piece of hardware, but I've heard that Line6's drivers blow and they never get updated.
Edit:
The Ozone only has a single mic pre, which is going to make it impossible to use more than one mic at a time. If you only have one mic, or don't foresee the need for using more than one at a time, you are golden.
baggachipz: Who cares about Japan, let them have their silly pointless dog games and countless re-hashes of anime-based dragon princess super lucky crapitty crap.
Thursday, November 16th, 2006 - 3:07pm
Podunk wrote:
But he's got an M-Audio Ozone, so he really doesn't need another audio interface unless he needs more mic pres or more simultaneous inputs or something.
D'oh! I'm guilty of skimming... 
It thought it was just an affordable recommendation.
Quote:
The Toneport is a killer little piece of hardware, but I've heard that Line6's drivers blow and they never get updated.
I've been tempted by the Toneport for the mic inputs but don't have one for any personal experience. The drivers for my Pod XT have been great though and updates have been fairly regular, even with some free effects in the last software update. They've been working on centralizing the software to a common system so maybe that made other development look slow.
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Thursday, November 16th, 2006 - 3:14pm
I'm sure you're right. I just remember hearing from a number of disgruntled Toneport users on the Sonar forum when the Toneport was still pretty new.
baggachipz: Who cares about Japan, let them have their silly pointless dog games and countless re-hashes of anime-based dragon princess super lucky crapitty crap.
Thursday, November 16th, 2006 - 3:59pm
I can, indeed, scarcely imagine needing more than 1 mic port. What would that be for, if I'm not recording live drums? Are you recording your guitars by mic-ing your amp, possibly in more than one place?
I suppose now I could use some advice on basic recording techniques. All I've really done before is plug my guitar directly in to an onboard (mobo) sound card - with far better than expected, but not really good enough, results.
And that was an electric guitar. Now I'll be wanting to record both electric and acoustic (which does have a jack). How should I proceed? I have no acoustic amp.
I'll try to look into software this week, and possibly break down and read the M-Audio's manual. Ack.
Quote:
Would be a good idea. I plan to have Logan sit in for me when I am on my honeymoon.
- Legion, taking "keeping it in the family" to a whole new level.
Xbox Live: Fedaykin98
Thursday, November 16th, 2006 - 4:08pm
LiquidMantis wrote:
Podunk wrote:But he's got an M-Audio Ozone, so he really doesn't need another audio interface unless he needs more mic pres or more simultaneous inputs or something.D'oh! I'm guilty of skimming...
Ugh. Me too. I thought I read it was something he was looking at, not something he already owned.
Are you gettin' there Rabbit, are you gettin' there now?
Yes Lord, Lord, I'm gettin' there now.
Thursday, November 16th, 2006 - 4:22pm
Fedaykin98 wrote:
I can, indeed, scarcely imagine needing more than 1 mic port. What would that be for, if I'm not recording live drums? Are you recording your guitars by mic-ing your amp, possibly in more than one place?[snip]
And that was an electric guitar. Now I'll be wanting to record both electric and acoustic (which does have a jack). How should I proceed? I have no acoustic amp.
If your acoustic has a jack, you should be able to run it directly into the interface like you would an electric.
To get the most natural sound, you'd mic your acoustic at about the 12th fret. To get an even fuller recording, you'd put a second mic off the fretboard. Of course, good mics for acoustic instruments are very expensive, so you'll probably just want to go direct.
Two jacks are nice for the micing configuration above. Or to record singing and playing at the same time.
In most of the recording situations I've been in that involved electric guitar the guitarist chose to mic the amp with a single mic instead of going direct. If you've got a nice amp, especially with tubes, you'd want to take advantage of the way the tubes gently distort and "warm" the sound. You need to isolate the amp though, and I wouldn't bother unless I had a good sounding amp and a good mic.
Sounds like a single XLR jack will be fine for you regardless.
Are you gettin' there Rabbit, are you gettin' there now?
Yes Lord, Lord, I'm gettin' there now.
Thursday, November 16th, 2006 - 4:29pm
Fedaykin98 wrote:
I can, indeed, scarcely imagine needing more than 1 mic port. What would that be for, if I'm not recording live drums? Are you recording your guitars by mic-ing your amp, possibly in more than one place?I suppose now I could use some advice on basic recording techniques. All I've really done before is plug my guitar directly in to an onboard (mobo) sound card - with far better than expected, but not really good enough, results.
And that was an electric guitar. Now I'll be wanting to record both electric and acoustic (which does have a jack). How should I proceed? I have no acoustic amp.
I'll try to look into software this week, and possibly break down and read the M-Audio's manual. Ack.
Have you tried micing you acoustic? I've gotten significantly better results doing that than recording from it's output. Also, you never told us what version of Cubase you have.
Thursday, November 16th, 2006 - 4:50pm
You can get halfway decent results micing an acoustic with an SM-57. It will also do as a vocal mic in a pinch.
I'd definitely recommend micing the acoustic guitar in addition to or instead of recording a direct signal. The piezo pickups in most acoustic guitars have an unpleasant plastic sort of sound to them. They can be useful in a studio situation, but they're mainly intended for live usage.
baggachipz: Who cares about Japan, let them have their silly pointless dog games and countless re-hashes of anime-based dragon princess super lucky crapitty crap.
Thursday, November 16th, 2006 - 4:58pm
I use Cubase LE to record the Conference Call podcast, it came with the Presonus Inspire Unit we got for recording. At first Cubase may seem a little overwhelming but after doing a little bit of reading and playing around with the program itself, it became pretty easy. The great thing about it is the more I use it the more I learn.
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Thursday, November 16th, 2006 - 5:13pm
Fedaykin98 wrote:
Dunno, I'll try to check. It's not installed right now.
If you don't know, then it's probably Cubase LE....basically a watered down Cubase SX. I've used ProLogic and Cubase SX, and I have to disagree with some of the guys here. Cubase SX 3 is quite powerful, and capable of doing anything you could want.....from Time Stretching, track automation, and 'decent' plug-ins. While it's pitch shifting blows, you don't need to waste money buying something else...if you already have it. I have a collection of SX tutorial videos, and I HIGHLY recommend buying them. They are a great reference and FAST learning.
For real sounding drum samples....Do you have a sampler?...eg. Halion 3 or something of the like? If you don't, you'll want a sampler on more than one occasion, like if you want to throw in a horn section on a part.
Thursday, November 16th, 2006 - 5:25pm
So, on the subject of the mic-ing of electric guitar amps: I know I've shown myself to be a novice in this thread, but you'll all be thrilled to know that every amp I've ever owned has been tube: two 70s Fender amps (post-CBS, obv) and one Mesa 2x12 Trem-O-Verb. Okay, technically, the latter is both, but I've only used the tubes.
Fletch: I haven't had the chance to check out my CuBase yet. Last night I was pressed for time; I grabbed a quick solo Freebird on the way to a free sneak of the new James Bond. Which was good.
I also can't remember what kind of mic I have, but when I get a chance I'll post that as well. In the past instance that I've been talking about, I was using the kind of terrible computer mic that you can get at Best Buy that LOOKS like a stage mic, but has a jack to fit your sound card and is very light and flimsy. Again, the results were far better than one would imagine, but still substandard. I DID think it was cool back then that I did all the recording I was doing with the only cost being about $3 for a 1/4 inch to stereo plug adapter.
Quote:
Would be a good idea. I plan to have Logan sit in for me when I am on my honeymoon.
- Legion, taking "keeping it in the family" to a whole new level.
Xbox Live: Fedaykin98
Thursday, November 16th, 2006 - 5:28pm
Dude, WING, he only wants to spend $100-200. 
Edit: yeah, you're going to need a real mic though.
baggachipz: Who cares about Japan, let them have their silly pointless dog games and countless re-hashes of anime-based dragon princess super lucky crapitty crap.
What version of Cubase you got?
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baggachipz: Who cares about Japan, let them have their silly pointless dog games and countless re-hashes of anime-based dragon princess super lucky crapitty crap.
Dunno, I'll try to check. It's not installed right now.
Quote:
- Legion, taking "keeping it in the family" to a whole new level.
Xbox Live: Fedaykin98
I think the biggest digital audio workstations are Cubase, Sonar, and Logic (Mac only). I have a little experience with Sonar 5 (Cakewalk), Cubase VST?, and Cubase SX. I fracking hated the Cubase VST version because I couldn't do anything that I wanted to do with it; it just required a non-intuitive way of thinking. Cubase SX was a lot better, but it still frustrated me. After having issues with the Cubase customer service, I decided to switch to Sonar 5. So far, I love it. It's much more intuitive, and the manual is very nice in that it's not a .pdf and it's pretty easy to find the information you're looking for. One key area where Sonar 5 lacks, however, is in waveform editing. I think eventually I'll have to pickup another application to handle that - possibly Soundforge.
EDIT: Took out the filler
You didn't really specify if you were looking for linear multitracking, or something loop/live oriented, but I'll assume linear given what you have mentioned.
I've used most of the major sequencing apps - but am consistently using Cubase SX 3 at work and Logic Pro 7 at home (because they wont let me have a Mac at work). I avoid using Cubase as much as possible at work, and do most of my sound design work in Sound Forge. I really, really dislike the workflow in Cubase. So if you're on PC, I'd like to recommend anything but Cubase.
If I were purchasing a new product, I'd likely check out Sonar first, and if that didn't fit the bill, I'd look into Ableton Live - even though it is more loop oriented, many swear by its ability to simply 'get out of your way' when you want to be creative.
If you have the dough, I've heard GREAT things about Nuendo, though it is most definitely a professional app - not really as geared toward simple home recording.
For Mac, GarageBand is the easy choice, followed by Logic Express or Logic Pro, which are progressively more deep and flexible.
Podunk knows this stuff backwards and forwards, but I'm gonna take a stab at it for you too. I recently did a ton of research on this stuff in order to outfit my band with a portable recording rig with hopes of recording our first CD.
You need two things: multitrack recording software, and a hardware interface.
From my research I've learned that you get what you pay for with the hardware, but the software is really similar in terms of quality. Cubase and CakeWalk (Sonar) are old standards, and they really do the job. Other options are ProTools, which is easy to get the basics and hard to master, and a new program from Mackie called "Tracktion". Terrible name, but it's cheap and I've heard good things about it. There's also Logic and DigitalPerformer on the Mac side of things.
ProTools used to be the obvious choice, but the ProTools hardware is very picky about the system it wants to work with. Also, the prosumer/consumer ProTools hardware is not the best out there in terms of preamps and converters.
Often the software comes bundled with the interface that you buy, so you want to choose your interface carefully. I would also stay away from any USB-based interfaces, as they are generally less stable than firewire.
It's going to ultimately come down to budget. Fortunately, right now is a great time to get into this because you have a lot of really solid options. Here are a couple of interfaces that look pretty good:
Mackie Satellite You get Onyx preamps and decent converters on this little unit. Mackie has a good rep in terms of quality. I haven't read any reviews on this unit since it just came out, so read up on it before ordering. Still, the specs look great. Comes with Tracktion.
Focusrite Saffire Focusrite is famous for its great preamps and converters. This unit comes with Cubase.
PreSonus Firebox is very popular. I would say that the preamps and converters are of a lower quality than the Mackie and Focusrite.
RME Fireface 400 approaches pro-level, and that's reflected in the price. You would need to buy a seperate software package in order to record.
Because I'm primarily using a Mac for recording, I ended up settling on a MOTU Traveler to work with my iBookG4. The Traveler came with a recording suite called AudioDesk which basically has almost everthing I need from recording my band to rudimentary mastering. It's the lite version of DigitalPerformer. Also, my band is acoustic so I needed phantom power and lots of XLR connectors, which factored into my decision to go MOTU. AudioDesk is very easy to use, and it's stable as hell. The converters and preamps are very clean. Not as clean as Apogee, especially in the high end, but it approaches that level without having to spend tons of cash.
I've had it for about 6 months now and it has performed flawlessly. I'm really enjoying the process of recording.
If you want to hear any of my results, check out my band's website:
http://newhottimes.com/music.htm
Are you gettin' there Rabbit, are you gettin' there now?
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Sonar 6 has been out for a month or two now. It's pretty cool.
I was a Sonar man until Sonar 5, at which point Sonar decided that it would no longer work for more than 10 minutes at a time without hard locking my machine. At that point I went to Cubase SX 3, which works like an absolute champ. There are aspects of the Sonar interface and MIDI implementation that I prefer, and there is a huge amount of value in the plug ins they bundle with Sonar, but if I can't get any work done it's of no use to me. I also like Sonar because Cakewalk uses relatively unintrusive challenge/response copy protection, whereas Steinberg uses a f*cking USB dongle, but whatever.
I recently sold my old Tascam US-428 audio interface and upgraded to a Presonus Firepod which I'm told is generally pretty stable with Sonar, but I'm still a little afraid to switch back.
There are other good DAW apps available for PC (Pro Tools LE, Mackie Tracktion, Sony Acid Pro, Ableton Live, Fruity Loops) but Sonar and Cubase seem to be the best choices for MIDI, so I've gone with those. If my needs were less MIDI-centric, I'd probably go with Pro Tools just because that's what everyone in the universe uses. I've heard great things about Logic, but since Apple bought out Emagic the app has been a Mac exculsive. Bummer.
For your needs, a full blown pro DAW is probably overkill. The more expensive packages have more advanced options that would be mostly useful to pro users, such as surround functionality and more sophisticated sync options. You could easily go with a stripped down version of one of the big DAWs, such as Cubase SE, or look into an audio interface that comes bundled with an OEM version of Cubase LE. I checked out the Cubase LE that came with my Firepod, and it seems pretty damn functional. It lacks some features that would make it problematic for serious MIDI/soft synth use, but if you've got enough system RAM you'd probably be fine.
As far as drums go, I cannot say enough good things about Toontrack EZ Drummer. I've got a number of other drum libraries, some of them much spendier than EZ Drummer, but EZ Drummer smokes them all for great sounding kits right out of the box. It's what I used for the non-looped drum parts on the Escape Radio theme.
If you need bass as well, I would recommend looking into Quantum Leap Hardcore Bass. I haven't found myself using it much, since I prefer to cut my bass tracks with a real bass when possible, but it's the best Swiss Army Knife collection of bass samples I've come across.
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baggachipz: Who cares about Japan, let them have their silly pointless dog games and countless re-hashes of anime-based dragon princess super lucky crapitty crap.
I can't speak for the Focusrite, but I like the pres in my Firepod better than the pres in my Mackie 1402 VLZ-Pro.
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baggachipz: Who cares about Japan, let them have their silly pointless dog games and countless re-hashes of anime-based dragon princess super lucky crapitty crap.
If you want to save some money on software right now to get some hardware, you could do a lot worse than Reaper by Justin of Winamp fame.
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Sort of off-topic: I have a friend that uses both of those but also has the Larry Seyer accoustic drum kit (which requires Gigastudio), which looks very cool to me. Does anyone else have this?
Interesting, Podunk. I'm just going on what I've read in reviews and what I've read on spec sheets, but if there is one certainty in all of this is that it all ultimately is very subjective.
Does the VLZ-Pro have Onyx pres?
I think Podunk brings up a good point: if you can, try before you buy. I was able to compare the MOTU unit to other interfaces at my local Guitar Center. I hated buying from them over Sweetwater, but I haggled and ended up getting a good price. If you can, try before you buy. The reviews don't tell you everything. If it sounds good to you, get it.
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Talk to me if you want to go serious and get Logic Pro. I can say no more.
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I've played around with Logic Pro a little bit, and it's really nice. If I had unlimited resources I'd probably get an Apogee Ensemble and Logic. They're very nice products.
Are you gettin' there Rabbit, are you gettin' there now?
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I've checked out the demos and the lib sounds great, but to me no library is worth the headache of investing in Giga, especially given the miserable condition of Tascam support these days. If EZ Drummer doesn't offer enough options I think DFH Superior or BFD would more than fit the bill. Also, Scarbee Imperial Drums is a nice multiformat library if you've got access to Kontakt or Halion. If you're interested in more info than you can shake a stick at, check out the forums at www.northernsounds.com. There are quite a few tv/film guys kicking around and a lot of very informed opinions on every sample library under the sun. There are a lot of noobish amateurs too, but you should have no trouble picking them out.
No, but it's got Mackie's pre-Onyx "nice" pres. I imagine that the Onyx pres are an improvement in some way, but I've never had a chance to test drive them. PreSonus has been making mid-to-high end pres for much longer than they've been making audio interfaces, so I find the pres on the Firepod to actually be one of the more attractive features of the unit. But of course you're right, it's all subjective.
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baggachipz: Who cares about Japan, let them have their silly pointless dog games and countless re-hashes of anime-based dragon princess super lucky crapitty crap.
No, but it's got Mackie's pre-Onyx "nice" pres. I imagine that the Onyx pres are an improvement in some way, but I've never had a chance to test drive them.
I haven't heard the Onyx pres either.
Presonus does make some really nice pro-level hardware, and the price on their entry level stuff is great.
I think that once you get in this range there's a diminishing return in terms of audio quality. And honestly average listener isn't going to be able to tell the difference between your masterpiece recorded via Mackie, or Presonus, or Focusrite.
Are you gettin' there Rabbit, are you gettin' there now?
Yes Lord, Lord, I'm gettin' there now.