Hubble: I'm Not Dead Yet!

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Nasa Gives Hubble Reprieve

Looks like a shuttle will go fix it in 2008, to keep it going til 2013. That should be enough time to get the next-gen scope up and running, too. Yay!

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Good for Hubble. Its good to see the old stand-by's getting some love.

And to the broader point, its good to see NASA getting back on its feet.

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Not to troll or anything, but do you really think that fixing Hubble with your tax dollars is a good idea? Sure we get pretty pictures of galactic bodies, but we have enough problems with debt in this country and fixing an unnecessary telescope isn't going to help that situation. I vote for freezing NASA's funding until the U.S. is back on it's feet financially.

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nateaudio wrote:
Not to troll or anything, but do you really think that fixing Hubble with your tax dollars is a good idea? Sure we get pretty pictures of galactic bodies, but we have enough problems with debt in this country and fixing an unnecessary telescope isn't going to help that situation. I vote for freezing NASA's funding until the U.S. is back on it's feet financially.

NASA is one of the few govermental programs that a majority of americans should support. We should cut spending in other areas first before going after NASA.

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nateaudio wrote:
Not to troll or anything, but do you really think that fixing Hubble with your tax dollars is a good idea? Sure we get pretty pictures of galactic bodies, but we have enough problems with debt in this country and fixing an unnecessary telescope isn't going to help that situation. I vote for freezing NASA's funding until the U.S. is back on it's feet financially.

I'm like 90% sure that the Hubble telescope is actually a big laser designed to fry whoever tries to call our tab. We've been using a computer to generate all those images.

On a serious note, NASA has helped create some of the most useful technology on the planet, and is a relatively minor expenditure. If we're gonna start slashing costs, there are easier places to do it.

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Dr.Ghastly wrote:
NASA is one of the few govermental programs that a majority of americans should support. We should cut spending in other areas first before going after NASA.

How can you justify that? Aside from some micro-technology, what has NASA given to us that warrants it's budget?

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nateaudio wrote:
Dr.Ghastly wrote:
NASA is one of the few govermental programs that a majority of americans should support. We should cut spending in other areas first before going after NASA.

How can you justify that? Aside from some micro-technology, what has NASA given to us that warrants it's budget?

How about massive scientific data on how the universe works for starters?

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Dr.Ghastly wrote:
NASA is one of the few govermental programs that a majority of americans should support. We should cut spending in other areas first before going after NASA.

Absolutely right. I am one of those Americans.
The value of the Hubble program goes far, far beyond 'pretty pictures of galactic bodies'. Granted, some of NASA's work may be done just as well for cheaper by private companies, but in terms of scientific research that advances our knowledge of the cosmos, I don't think you can beat the program's value-for-money ratio.

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There is no reason for them not to fix Hubble. They could have fixed GRO too, but after Challenger, they aren't about to fix anything with hydrozene on it.

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The Hubble never killed anybody. Best use of government funding in a long while.

However, it's my understanding that the new space telescope won't serve quite the same function. It won't give us the same pretty pictures.

As for freezing NASA until the U.S. is back on it's feet? Never gonna happen. Particularly when you consider just how little of the annual federal budget goes to NASA.

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I guess it depends on your own priorities. I, for one, see all that money being funneled into NASA and wonder what immediate good it could have done for the American people. Lower taxes perhaps? But I digress. As far as your reasoning goes, for all the data NASA has gathered, where are all the life altering answers? We now know the universe is massive, expanding, and that we are totally alone. Wow. Let's leave it at that and get back to helping people.

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Haakon7 wrote:
Dr.Ghastly wrote:
NASA is one of the few govermental programs that a majority of americans should support. We should cut spending in other areas first before going after NASA.

Absolutely right. I am one of those Americans.
The value of the Hubble program goes far, far beyond 'pretty pictures of galactic bodies'. Granted, some of NASA's work may be done just as well for cheaper by private companies, but in terms of scientific research that advances our knowledge of the cosmos, I don't think you can beat the program's value-for-money ratio.

I'm on the NASA bandwagon myself just from the basic science standpoint. Though I have my issues with manned space (which I believe to be a monumental waste of time and money).

I also take issue with the idea that private companies can do it as well as NASA and cheaper. First off, most of the work is contracted out to private firms like Lockmart already. Secondly, without public funding, there is absolutely zero incentive for private firms to pursue basic science on their own.

Sure, get private contractors to do the work or even manage the projects, but the idea of market based basic scientific research is simply a pipe dream.

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Quote:
Not to troll or anything, but do you really think that fixing Hubble with your tax dollars is a good idea?

Yes. Science and discovery are important. Also, inspiring kids and adults to scientific careers and exploration is important.

I'm exhuasted by the mentality that valuable gain can only be measured in a bank account and a physical accounting of product.

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I, for one, see all that money being funneled into NASA and wonder what immediate good it could have done for the American people. Lower taxes perhaps?

Yeah, because all that bloated spending of late has been all about "helping people". I've got a laundry list of billions of dollars of spending that should be cut before we get in the ballpark of spending on science.

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nateaudio wrote:
Not to troll or anything, but do you really think that fixing Hubble with your tax dollars is a good idea? Sure we get pretty pictures of galactic bodies, but we have enough problems with debt in this country and fixing an unnecessary telescope isn't going to help that situation. I vote for freezing NASA's funding until the U.S. is back on it's feet financially.

I love it when someone opens up with "Not to troll or anything..."

However, you raise a good point, and it's a question many astronomers have struggled to answer satisfactorily. Why should we pursue science in this country? There's usual arguments about how we might discover something useful later on, and how NASA has driven telecommunications technology, and so on and so on. But honestly, I think the pursuit of science, like art, literature and music, is really its own justification. At some point, you have to say, "I do these things not because I'm looking for immediate gratification, but because I'm looking to better understand the world around me." These are the things I'd want to spend money on: learning more about the world and universe around us, instead of blowing it up in wars and such.

As for your economic concerns, NASA's budget for 2006 was $16.45 billion. No drop in the water, of course. But compare that to, say, the Department of defense: $419.3 billion in 2006. From a pure numbers perspective, if we want to fix the debt in the country, it would make a far larger impact to clean up the money mismanagement over at the DoD first. But I am not an economist, and I'm certainly not prepared to make an economic argument in favor of NASA.

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The universe outside our planet is a giant physics lab, and our only means of interacting with it is via astromy. Ever wonder how we found evidence for, say, Pauli's Exclusion Principal? How about gravity...modeling that seems pretty useful. Quantum mechanics? The US wouldn't be the same if not for using telecopes to study Mercury. That whole relativity thing led us to the Atom Bomb. I'd say that was pretty life-altering.

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nateaudio wrote:
I guess it depends on your own priorities. I, for one, see all that money being funneled into NASA and wonder what immediate good it could have done for the American people. Lower taxes perhaps? But I digress. As far as your reasoning goes, for all the data NASA has gathered, where are all the life altering answers? We now know the universe is massive, expanding, and that we are totally alone. Wow. Let's leave it at that and get back to helping people.

I'm sure folks will answer this long before I get to it, but the short answer to this is that basic research dollars on the public level pay handsomely in public dividends, BUT you have to cover a lot of bets. The attitude that we should only invest in things that bring immediate returns would have prevented us from putting public funds into such things as funding the research of moldy bread. The result of that embattled government grant was, possibly, the single biggest medical discovery of the 20th century.

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Paleocon wrote:
I also take issue with the idea that private companies can do it as well as NASA and cheaper. First off, most of the work is contracted out to private firms like Lockmart already. Secondly, without public funding, there is absolutely zero incentive for private firms to pursue basic science on their own.

Sure, get private contractors to do the work or even manage the projects, but the idea of market based basic scientific research is simply a pipe dream.

My opinion as well. My reference to the privatization of space was on the 'space travel' side, but I didn't make that clear.

Just pulled up the budget figures. NASA's annual budget for 2006 was US$16.45 billion. That's less than one thirtieth of what we spent on the Department of Health & Human Services (US$543.2 billion) in 2004.

EDIT: Why do you have to be so smart (and so fast), Kat?

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LobsterMobster wrote:

However, it's my understanding that the new space telescope won't serve quite the same function. It won't give us the same pretty pictures.

I meant the next-gen optical observatory. I think that's the infrared observatory that's going up. It's important to note that x-ray, infrared and optical telescopes serve very different purposes and see very different things. You can't point Hubble at a black hole, for instance, or a dust cloud and get useful data. You need them all to get the complete picture.

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I just think it is a shame that we didn't have the balls to fix the Gamma Ray Observatory. My buddies and I got blind, stinking drunk the night we had to take that down.

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Paleocon wrote:
nateaudio wrote:
I guess it depends on your own priorities. I, for one, see all that money being funneled into NASA and wonder what immediate good it could have done for the American people. Lower taxes perhaps? But I digress. As far as your reasoning goes, for all the data NASA has gathered, where are all the life altering answers? We now know the universe is massive, expanding, and that we are totally alone. Wow. Let's leave it at that and get back to helping people.

I'm sure folks will answer this long before I get to it, but the short answer to this is that basic research dollars on the public level pay handsomely in public dividends, BUT you have to cover a lot of bets. The attitude that we should only invest in things that bring immediate returns would have prevented us from putting public funds into such things as funding the research of moldy bread. The result of that embattled government grant was, possibly, the single biggest medical discovery of the 20th century.

You sound like my old favorite financial econ Prof. with the whole "long term investment" thing. I know, you have to look at the long term and not just the short; its just that the short term sucks in this country right now - I know the DoD budget is to blame. I love knowledge, I really do. I am just wrestling with all the financial decisions being made everyday that will determine our countries collective state into the future and the Hubble thing kind of touched a nerve with me. Weren't they going to junk it a couple of years back and saved it with the new lens? I don't want to hurt aerospace jobs, but I'm just not sold on it's future return.

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nateaudio wrote:

You sound like my old favorite financial econ Prof. with the whole "long term investment" thing. I know, you have to look at the long term and not just the short; its just that the short term sucks in this country right now - I know the DoD budget is to blame. I love knowledge, I really do. I am just wrestling with all the financial decisions being made everyday that will determine our countries collective state into the future and the Hubble thing kind of touched a nerve with me. Weren't they going to junk it a couple of years back and saved it with the new lens? I don't want to hurt aerospace jobs, but I'm just not sold on it's future return.

I can certainly appreciate that. The fiscal irresponsibility of this administration in particular is infuriating.

The problem, though, is that the third rails of politics on both sides of the aisle make it very easy to spend money on crap that will not bring about returns. I have to give Clinton and the '94 Congress credit for tackling entitlement spending with welfare reform. I just wish a Republican president could do the same for defense spending. Both sides will insist that their third rail is necessary to enrich or protect our well being, but the fact of the matter is that spending in both arenas is far beyond the point of diminishing returns.

If anything, we should be spending more money on basic research at the expense of defense and entitlements. Projects like a new fighter plane for the Air Force are entirely political. We need another fighter like we need another Maginot Line.

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nateaudio wrote:
How can you justify that? Aside from some micro-technology, what has NASA given to us that warrants it's budget?

Besides satellite dishes, satellite navigation, medical imaging (CT scans/MRI's/Ultrasound machines/breast cancer detection), ear thermometers, fire fighting gear (tanks/suit), smoke detectors, UV protection sunglasses, scratch resistant lenses, cordless tools, thermal boots/gloves, shock absorbant helmets, joystick controllers, Flat panel televisions, long range weather forcasting, programmable pace makers, solar power, car phones, car chasis and brake designs, portable coolers/warmers, advances in food packaging and preservation, and a crap load of other stuff?

NASA doesn't just look at pretty stars all day.

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PurEvil wrote:
nateaudio wrote:
How can you justify that? Aside from some micro-technology, what has NASA given to us that warrants it's budget?

Besides satellite dishes, satellite navigation, medical imaging (CT scans/MRI's/Ultrasound machines/breast cancer detection), ear thermometers, fire fighting gear (tanks/suit), smoke detectors, UV protection sunglasses, scratch resistant lenses, cordless tools, thermal boots/gloves, shock absorbant helmets, joystick controllers, Flat panel televisions, long range weather forcasting, programmable pace makers, solar power, car phones, car chasis and brake designs, portable coolers/warmers, advances in food packaging and preservation, and a crap load of other stuff?

Yes, but ASIDE from all of that, what have the Romans ever done for us?

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Knowledge and discovery are all well and good, but if you're looking for some tangible benefits that have resulted from the research check out this list. NASA has to come up with all sorts of new technology to do what they do, and it just so happens that there are all sorts of uses for what they come up with. I mean, who doesn't love Tang?

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PurEvil wrote:
nateaudio wrote:
How can you justify that? Aside from some micro-technology, what has NASA given to us that warrants it's budget?

Besides satellite dishes, satellite navigation, medical imaging (CT scans/MRI's/Ultrasound machines/breast cancer detection), ear thermometers, fire fighting gear (tanks/suit), smoke detectors, UV protection sunglasses, scratch resistant lenses, cordless tools, thermal boots/gloves, shock absorbant helmets, joystick controllers, Flat panel televisions, long range weather forcasting, programmable pace makers, solar power, car phones, car chasis and brake designs, portable coolers/warmers, advances in food packaging and preservation, and a crap load of other stuff?

NASA doesn't just look at pretty stars all day.

Yes, but how does the hubble repair play into any of those? I believe it just looks at "pretty stars"

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nateaudio wrote:
Yes, but how does the hubble repair play into any of those? I believe it just looks at "pretty stars"

From mumford's link:

Quote:
One small example is the Hubble Space Telescope. Much maligned at first because of its flawed optics, it still produced better photographs than anything here on Earth. Once fixed, it has produced even more startling scientific data which we have only begun to understand and apply. One of the many spinoffs from the Hubble telescope is the use of its Charge Coupled Device (CCD) chips for digital imaging breast biopsies. The resulting device images breast tissue more clearly and efficiently than other existing technologies. The CCD chips are so advanced that they can detect the minute differences between a malignant or benign tumor without the need for a surgical biopsy. This saves the patient weeks of recovery time and the cost for this procedure is hundreds of dollars vs. thousands for a surgical biopsy. With over 500,000 women needing biopsies a year the economic benefit, per year, is tremendous and it greatly reduces the pain, scarring, radiation exposure, time, and money associated with surgical biopsies.

Any more "yeah, buts"? That's a pretty specific benefit from "just looking at pretty stars all day."

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nateaudio wrote:
Not to troll or anything, but do you really think that fixing Hubble with your tax dollars is a good idea? Sure we get pretty pictures of galactic bodies, but we have enough problems with debt in this country and fixing an unnecessary telescope isn't going to help that situation. I vote for freezing NASA's funding until the U.S. is back on it's feet financially.

I think that bill the president signed into law the other day authorizing stricter immigration enforcement and the option to declare martial law and call up National Guard forces to quell domestic disturbances without authorization from Congress or state governors has a slightly higher price tag. And with the benefit of creating the first American dictatorship in the country's history (well, maybe the second), it's a bargain at twice the price. But still, probably not as beneficial to humanity as a whole as space exploration.

But maybe politics isn't your thing. That's cool. How about plastic? Do you like plastic? Here's a challenge: count the number of plastic items you touch and/or use today. Start now, you don't have to go back all the way to turning off your alarm clock. Post the number here later, when you click off your TV and head to bed. Then sleep on the thought of what your life would be like without those things. Because NASA helped make plastic possible.

NASCAR (lighter cars go faster), satellite TV, cell phones, most modern cancer drugs (sh*t, most modern drugs period), Tang, solar power, weather prediction, that computer you're using to access the internet, the internet, natural disaster prediction and avoidance and even satellite imagery and national defense (missiles, anyone?). These are just the things I can think of off the top of my head that America's space program has contributed to over the years. And that's not even counting what somebody already mentioned: encouraging young people to pursue careers in science and to carry on the work of making incredible, beneficial scientific advances, whether in space or down here on Earth.

It galls me to see this kind of ignorance of the benefits of science and space exploration. And I'm from the South. I should, be used to it, but I'm not. To reap the benefits on a daily basis and yet be completely ignorant of the source ... it blows my mind. Perhaps we actually should scrap NASA and spend the money on better schools.

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nateaudio wrote:

Yes, but how does the hubble repair play into any of those? I believe it just looks at "pretty stars"

The problem with monetizing basic research is that you really don't know what discovery you'll come up with when you start out. No one knew they would find the single most significant advance against infectious disease when they decided to issue a government grant for the study of moldy bread, but thank the wisdom of our forefathers that they did fund it otherwise Syphillis and Gonorhea would be killing a lot more teenagers with "abstinence pledges" today.

What we do know about the Hubble is that it allows us to see a LOT of what was simply invisible to us in the past. Where will that lead? Who knows? Anton Leuenhouk's "little waste of time and money" led to the discovery of Germ Theory.

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nateaudio wrote:
Yes, but how does the hubble repair play into any of those? I believe it just looks at "pretty stars"

For most of us, that's absolutely correct. The data obtained during our lifetimes will most likely not mean much to us, but the knowledge gained from it should serve as a stepping stone for space exploration in the generations that follow us.

And you should be more specific when asking questions. If you had asked, "How does the Hubble Telescope justify NASA's budget to improve our daily lives in the here and now?" it would have taken me a bit longer to reply.

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Quote:
It galls me to see this kind of ignorance of the benefits of science and space exploration. And I'm from the South. I should, be used to it, but I'm not. To reap the benefits on a daily basis and yet be completely ignorant of the source ... it blows my mind. Perhaps we actually should scrap NASA and spend the money on better schools.

I know we're not supposed to, but QFT. All I could do was blindly rant when I tried to make this thought.

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PurEvil wrote:
nateaudio wrote:
Yes, but how does the hubble repair play into any of those? I believe it just looks at "pretty stars"

For most of us, that's absolutely correct. The data obtained during our lifetimes will most likely not mean much to us, but the knowledge gained from it should serve as a stepping stone for space exploration in the generations that follow us.

I don't know that it will take that long for us to realize benefits from the basic science that is gained from a megapowerful measuring and observation device. It didn't take very long for folks to figure out that microorganisms that Anton Leuenhouk found with his primative microscope were potentially dangerous. Hubble allows us to put a lot of things into the category of "know that we don't know" instead of "don't know that we don't know". That's a pretty freaking HUGE jump.

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