WoW PvP - the grind worse than ever?
Thursday, September 21st, 2006 - 3:25pm
In the days before cross-server PvP, my server actually had it pretty good. There were honor soft caps on both sides, people got thrown out of guilds for using exploits, and we all got along pretty well with a lot of mutual respect among the players.
Now with cross-server PvP, everything has gone to hell. There's no reasonable way to enforce the soft caps through excluding people, so those are gone. Honor requirements on the high end have gone from about 250,000 to 700,000 or more. If there is an exploit, someone is using it. Jerks with /spit macros showing in their screenshots come to our server forum to crow about their Tier2/3 guild beating pug teams. The sense of community and sportsmanship is gone, replaced by the usual crap that unregulated internet gaming brings.
I already gave up on PvP until the revamp, but the really hardcore players are quitting too. One person I know got to Rank 14 on Alliance, then rolled Horde and is up to Rank 13 on that side. This is a guy that lives and breathes PvP, who wants to keep playing, but he's announced he's quitting now due to all these changes.
Is it any better on other servers, or is it all this bad?
"Raise high the black flags, my children."
-- Gebhard von Blucher.
Dunno.. the artificial soft caps people were using and the queue system you had to get in to reach rank 14 seemed just as silly.. I think at this point just wait for the expansion.. or just try and enjoy it as best you can.
Aint nothing new about the world order..it's been playing since the day they put George Washington on a quarter
85's face the truth you're too dumb.
http://www.myspace.com/armyofthepharaohs
Its fairly bad on my server stormrage (bg3) but I've never bought into the pvp grind for gear. Sure, it'd be nice but its horrid. 180k in a week couldnt get my hunter from rank4 to low 6 and that was from a mega AV grind fest on bonus weekend. A friend who did a bit more than me couldnt get from 5 to 6. The only real benefit I see from x-server bg's is better queue times for alliance for AB/WSG because stormrage had lost so many of its horde to transfers/re rolls. AV however is now up to 90mins on avg. for alliance and as much as I love it, I'm burned out after getting two toons to exalted even though AV is an honor smogasbord. I was amazed that my rogue went from rank 3 to low 5 on a mere 1k kills or so from only AV runs all weekend long.
I don't feel too bad about the honor soft caps though. So many of the hardcore wankers used to whine and moan about it and then exclude anyone who was casual or really anything but serious pvp'ers from their groups or they'd just bitch and brag about their leet skills. "Lrn2play" and "Hael me" being frequent, yeah I'll get on that after I get slaughtered by yet another pvp team with better gear.. It used to be, if I saw someone over rank 8-9, especially someone at commander or marshal, I knew they'd never join the main raid group to try and organize a win, it was all about honor grind. Thats fine, but don't expect me to support you, heal you or give a rats arse about you. Some of them were/are such friggin drama queens that I have no tolerance for them. Worst was seeing a genuinely nice guy but a major pvp fanatic try to take over running a MC/ZG raiding guild... first zg run he leads, he admits he's never been in zg before. I started kicking myself for not leaving 2 weeks earlier when everyone else who was a serious raider did...
I'd love to get my 60 hunter and/or rogue some decent pvp gear but I'd have better luck and spend less time getting those toons into MC/ZG guilds or even bwl or better guilds for gear or I'll just go back to raiding with my druid.
The most fun I have in pvp these days is the lower brackets with an organized group using voice comms. Sure, you have twinks but its generally not so out of control that an organized team that backs each other up can't still win. All that matters is faction rep because at lvl 29 rank 3 is the max you can get. My 29 healer has more kills than my 60 rogue of a higher rank.
Whats a soft cap?
It's like the little knitted wool hats you wear skiing, right?
Quote:
- Legion, taking "keeping it in the family" to a whole new level.
Xbox Live: Fedaykin98
PVP folks would organize set limits on honor per week, thus making sure folks would get their rank 13/14. Sort of, a wait your turn to get grand marshal plan.
The PVP system was mostly a bust from the start. It rewards time spent, not skill (in most cases). Hopefully the expansion will help that with the arena system. Wait, I am not playing ever again, ignore me....
Xbox Live: Kooter06
The arena system sounds really awesome, but I fear that it, as with many things WoW, will also reward time spent/brute force over play skill. Here's hoping that's not the case.
Quote:
- Legion, taking "keeping it in the family" to a whole new level.
Xbox Live: Fedaykin98
Agreed, at least on the rewarding time over skill part. Given that its fun as hell, I wouldn't call it a bust, just the reward system. They should track your Kill:death ratio and reward some degree of honor based upon that to at least make people care about contributing. It sucks playing with a bunch of alliance who go to the slaughter like so many sheep just so they can farm a few extra HK's.
Glad to see Flux recruit himself back into the fold of GWJ =)
Being fangoriously devoured by a gelatinous monster.
I was talking to one of our guild's dedicated PvPers. He's Field Marshal now (Rank 13), and hit that a week ago. He figures he has three more weeks to hit Grand Marshal, and needs at least 450,000 honor each week. In the days of the soft caps, it was around 275,000 a week to go from FM to GM.
"Raise high the black flags, my children."
-- Gebhard von Blucher.
Yes, it's quite annoying. Especially when you have a guy on the BG chat spamming "Regroup at the stables! THEN run to the mines as a group!"
Idiot 1 has died.
...
Idiot 2 has died.
...
Idiot 3 has died.
Rinse and repeat for 5 minutes or so until the horde's 4 resources net them the win.
IronClad Online: PurEvil
3 weeks at 450,000 honor a week!?! Dude must not be a GWJ. Thats gotta be what, 50 hours a week of pvp?
On another note, I dinged 60 yesterday and on my first try at lvl 60 AB my team scored a victory. That may not sound so amazing unless you consider the fact that I was on a 3-week long (perhaps 40-50 tries) AB losing streak. Perhaps the lvl 60 alliance crowd is a little better at pvp than the level 50-59 alliance crowd.
I'm finding, as much as I enjoy it, it is a grind. Especially if you have chosen this path in obtaining good gear instead of Raids. I know I have to be doing it all the time, especially during the time when it's not a 'Call to Arms' weekend for AB or WSG with bonuses, just to keep my present rank, let alone going to the higher one. And now I'm finding that I'm having little luck in connecting with folks for Quest, so gear even becomes more of an issue.
As far as putting time in as the only measure, will I'm a bit new at all this, but from my understanding this is true to some extent, however you do get bonuses to honor from dealing Killing Blows and not dying too much (this doesn't come into play in WSG if you haven't gotten at least one flag. More with AB because of the resources you obtain gives you more incentive). So this to me is showing some skill. BUT, because you dealing with folks in an entire range of levels, this can be misleading simply because most at the top end can have a field day on those at the lower end (but it is sweet to get one of them instead!). In some way's, the Horde deals with this better. I see them throw out 'bait' of low ends and once engaged the high ends are there to the rescue and stomp. (again, because of he quick response, I'm think VOIP to be sure).
A thought occurred to me recently too that by the time I get to 60 and enjoy the experience of AV (and better gear), the expansion will be out and I'll find myself now at the low end of things:>)
Again, my take on doing the 'low end' Battlegrounds for about a month or so now.
XBL: DonanGWJ
PSN: Toxdon
You don't need to be 60 for AV. You need to be in the last PvP tier, i.e. 50+. Level 51s and level 60s fight in the same BGs.
(@)
Thanks Moon'. I knew that, but the 'ole 'sidetrack' got me:>) Btw, do low 50's have any chance at all in AV to get anything? (and not get massacred:>)
XBL: DonanGWJ
PSN: Toxdon
Well... so so. You won't last long against epic 60s, but you can make a difference. You can capture side quests, or heal, or protect some captured flags, etc. There are a lot of resource gathering quests in AV that instigate some sort of an NPC response on the map. Like mining for example. Or hide/ram gathering.
So if you approach it not as a PvP experience but rather questing PvE experience, you'll be ok.
(@)
Also as a member of the raid you still get all the rep. its never too early to start your SP rep! They are some damn good items from that and You'll get some kills now and a again which will make you a private. Beyond that you'll also get honor and will eventually gain rank and can get those items as a well.
WOW: Bounce
AV is totally different than WSG or AB. Its a 40-man raid and most PVP occurs not mono v. mono but with five, ten or more players on a side duking it out over some chokepoint or 'flag'. The other part of AV is that there is actually a lot of PVE associated with it. You can't win until you kill the other side's general and a bunch of battlemasters. As a result, I have found that level doesn't matter nearly as much in AV as in the other battlegrounds. Sure, you'll get ripped a new one by the level 60s, but it doesn't seem to matter nearly as much. I frankly don't enjoy AV as much because for that reason ... its just a gankfest.
Thanks folks for the information. Sounds interesting and fun. I can't wait(!).
EDIT: Actually while I'm at it, any insight's to proper play, or what to look for or do?
XBL: DonanGWJ
PSN: Toxdon
Once I hit level 51 I signed up for AV. This was before the cross realm BG so I had to wait an hour to get in but once I did it was amazing. Even though I was 51 I ranked up kills and honor points like crazy. I went from 500 lifetime HK to over 4ooo HK after only 4 AV runs. Now AV used to last a good 6 hours before the cross realm patch. But even for that long Alliance would win the day. I went from PVT to MSGT in that week after only 4 AV runs and got halfway through Honored with SP. I like that now because as a Hunter I buy the Ice-threaded arrows which are 16.5 DPS, and I don't have to rely on someone or the AH for the Thorium Tipped arrows which are 17 DPS. Also the Ice-threaded are like 32s whereas on my server the Thorium are 1 gold a stack.
Fathgar - Feathermoon
wordsmythe - "Jesus would drive a Hummer and burn as much oil as possible, since the dinosaurs it's made out of seem to be confusing people.
Good points on AV Demon ... the rep and honor grind is much easier in AV than AB and WSG. I don't think I'm exaggerating when I say I earn rep 10x faster in AV than I do in AB. I've done AB probably 75 times and AV about 10 times. I'm well into honored rep in AV and still stuck in the middle of friendly on AB.
I've been in AV matches where I have racked up over 500 hk's. One thing I've noticed, however, is that the more a guy dies, the less 'educated honor' you get from him, often to the point where the kill is worth nothing to you. What is this 'educated honor'?
If both sides concentrate on PVE, an AV match can last 1/2 hour. If both sides try to defend flags, the match can last several hours. I think AV has a lot of issues but the rep is so good, I'll keep playing it until I get to exhalted.
the educated honor is titan or cosmos predicting the amount of hono points you will get from killing that person. And you are right after about 5 kills of the same person you don't get any honor from him. That was put into place to discourage corpse camping and such. Not relative to BG but to world PvP.
Since the cross realm I have been doing AV matches in under an hour. The one only took 15 minutes. Both sides went straight for the generals and the Alliance was able to get and kill the Horde one first. not alot of honor but if you sign up again for AV you will make more honor points the more runs you make then the more kills, turn ins in one match.
Fathgar - Feathermoon
wordsmythe - "Jesus would drive a Hummer and burn as much oil as possible, since the dinosaurs it's made out of seem to be confusing people.
Wow. Thanks for the mini-discussion Cop' and Demon'. This sounds great. I've grind so much just to get to MSGT, that I was starting to get weary and discourged. Now, after reading you discussions, I think I might just not do BG's so much now and worry about rank for getting better gear (well I'm really close to the next rank, so maybe a bit more grind:>), but zero in on leveling so I can get to 51 asap to play AV.-Thanks! Very helpful.
XBL: DonanGWJ
PSN: Toxdon
There was a post on my server forum that Horde side, the honor requirement for ranking 1 or 2 for the week has crossed the million point barrier. There's no way your can play legitimately and get a million honor. On Alliance, my guildmate is still aiming for 400,000 to 450,000 to rank 1 for the week.
"Raise high the black flags, my children."
-- Gebhard von Blucher.
How many hours a week does he play and does he do anything besides pvp? I can't imagine just playing AV over and over again for like 80 hours a week.
Wow! Well I'll just go along and see where I go. As I understand it, you get alot more honor (and rep?) in AV. I'm rank 5 now and haven't gotten to the level to play AV yet. So I hope I'll be able to go up a few more ranks before it get's absurd.
As my previous post mentioned, I was going to give up what I felt was grinding, but I still get into it. Last night I just wanted to go in for one round of WSG. As it is I was in for 3 that lasted altogether well over 90 minutes (actually I did one over the weekend that lasted 75 minutes! One!!). Anyway I ended up staying in because it was really some great games. (of course what made it extremely fun AND unsual is that the Alliance won 2 our 3...amazing!). Lot's of furballs and close calls. I'm really getting into learning my spells and such so I play for the challenge. I was doing will with heals, Blessing of Sacrifice to break spells and help the flag carrier and just getting into furballs of my own. (sweetest to me, I guess in a weird way, was going at it with 3 horde for well over a minute or so. I knew I ultimately had no chance, but it was fun trying to get one of them as I went down:>) ...course it helps too to be at the higher end of the section now) But Alliance stayed in two groups pretty much (instead of the usual 2-3 pockets all over the place). Folks pitching in with not only the flag carrier, but each other when trying to get rid of the 'guards' and such. Just very nice and enjoyable.
EDIT: I keep forgetting to ask. If you can't do the whole 6 hrs or whatever AV, do you get any benefit? There's just no way I can put in that long at a sitting. I'd love to get some gear drops and of course honor and rep. But is it severely limited whe you can only be in for an hour or so at a time?
XBL: DonanGWJ
PSN: Toxdon
He PvPs every night for several hours and all weekend. I don't recall a time in recent memory when he was not online when I was.
"Raise high the black flags, my children."
-- Gebhard von Blucher.
Most AV rounds are much shorter now. The last one I did was 24 minutes from start to Alliance victory. People know you get more honor from a win than grinding kills, and they will start to complain and leave if a round takes a while.
"Raise high the black flags, my children."
-- Gebhard von Blucher.
Yah, I did one last night that lasted 18 minutes. I only had like 5 HK's. Pretty much just the alliance and horde both rushing the opposing general. Most of my AV's last about 30 minutes, with occasional ones that last up to an hour or so. I was in one a few weeks back that was a stalement and I /afk'd out after about an hour and over 500 HK's.
AV is really a broken battleground. It has turned into people rep farming by concentrating on PVE instead of PVP. As such, you can get to exhalted with about 40 runs through the battleground. Thats a pretty low time investment compared to most other faction rep grinds given how quickly you can complete it. Even those that turn into PVP battles can earn you a ton of honor because you can easily get several hundred HK's compared to 50 or so in AB or WSG.