Fantasy Football Teams, Sign-Up & Rule Discussion!

CEO
Certis's picture

Hello everyone, here are the teams, league passwords and draft dates. The rules for both leagues will be the same, so you can brag over the guys you can't actually play against

Both leagues are on Yahoo!

When you sign up, your team name must include your forum name!

GWJ Fantasy Football Extreme (League ID: 272418)
PW: stan
Draft date: August 25th 8:30PMCST

Certis
Gaald
Baggachipz
Grumpicus
Karmajay
Elliotx
Minase
LeapingGnome
Trowan
Legion

--

GWJ Fantasy Football Ultra (ID# 325893)
PW: gwjstan
Draft Date: August 25th 8:30PMCST

Elysium
JimmDogg
Redhwk
Stric9
Fredster
Highlander
Pigpen
Phragged
Oldmanscene24
SwampYankee

Certis beat me to it. - Elysium

Head Coach
Donator
*Legion*'s picture
Location: Scouting 1st round offensive tackles

Get ready for a massively long post!

The following are the rules I have tailored from over a decade of fantasy football playing. When I explain the rules and the reasoning behind them, I'm confident many of you will not want to play under any other rule set ever again.

The key to my rules are BALANCE. This is something a group of gamers should understand very well. Many fantasy football rules (especially scoring systems) pay absolutely no attention to balance. Many players have just come to accept this imbalance. But with the right combination of very standard scoring rules, a good balance can be achieved.

First, though, let's talk roster sizes:

3 QBs (1 starter)
5-6 RBs (2 starters)
5-6 WRs (3 starters)
2-3 TEs (1 starter)
2 PKs (1 starter)
2 D/STs (1 starter)

Leagues with deep benches are, IMO, far preferable to ones with thin benches. It allows owners to use late-round picks on extra rookies or guys that could produce if they get a chance to get on the field. It rewards owners that pay attention to camp and preseason ball to scout for potential gems. It also emphasizes trading (social activity) over free agent land-grabbing (not so social). It provides a nicer buffer from injuries than thinner benches do. (In my leagues, I actually don't set maximum limits for any one position, but allow enough bench space to fill a roster in a pattern much like the one above. I don't mind limits though, as long as they're not too restrictive. Sometimes you want to be able to carry an extra WR or RB because you've got two or three guys with short-term injuries that you don't want to dump)

Also note the 3 starting WRs instead of 2. Most leagues are trending toward this, and I believe GWJ played with this rule as well. In today's NFL, the WR pool is too deep to only have 2 starting receivers per team. With 3 receivers, owners find joy in quietly productive players like Bobby Engram and Joe Jurivicius.

Now, onto the scoring system:

6 points per rushing & receiving touchdown, 4 points per passing touchdown
Nothing too exciting here, most leagues are like this. Some use a full 6 points per passing TD, which is horribly unbalanced.

1 point per 10 yards rushing
Pretty standard scoring here too. The other most common option is 1 point per 20 yards rushing. The reason I use 1/10 and hate 1/20 is because a 1/20 league places an overly heavy emphasis on touchdowns. In such a league, one goal-line touchdown run is equal to 120 yards rushing. That is, in my opinion, asinine. It's hard to make an exact equivalence between yards and touchdowns, but nice round numbers are desirable, and making 1 touchdown equal to 60 yards rushing is a lot more down to earth than 1 equaling 120 yards rushing.

My scoring system's reason for existence is to try and make a player's fantasy value as close as possibleto their real-life value. I hate seeing leagues where a Pro Bowl receiver is less valuable than an average, second-tier running back. I especially hate seeing productive players being less valuable than fullbacks that only touch the ball at the goal-line. A running back that runs for 120 yards may not have ultimately scored the touchdowns, but most likely set up two or three (or more) scoring drives. Over-valuing touchdowns (or, more accurately, under-valuing yardage) throws player values out of whack.

1 point per 10 yards receiving
Same argument here. 1 touchdown is equal to 60 receiving yards. 120 yards receiving is a monster performance, and it's ridiculous for a single TD catch to be equal to that level of performance.

1 point per reception
This was a newer tweak to my league's rules. The purpose of this rule is to bring wide receivers up to the same level as the two other major skill positions: QB and RB. Under other rules, wide receivers can be second class citizens. Tight ends also become more valuable relative to all other positions, making the position worth paying attention to. It also has a secondary effect of adding extra value to running backs that contribute as receivers. It gives value to pass receiving 3rd down backs.

1 point per 20 yards passing
This was traditionally 25 yards passing, but changing it to 20 counterbalanced the 1 point per reception rule, and brought all three major positions into as near-perfect of harmony as possible. 1/20 is actually more common than 1/25, so this change just brought us more in line with everyone else. 1/25 was more common back when I started playing, and it's just taken me a little while to let go.

-2 points per INT/lost fumble
Pretty common. Some leagues go with only -1, but that doesn't sufficiently punish INT-happy QBs, and with only -1, the QBs start to drift away from other positions in the scoring balance a bit.

EDIT: Forgot Kicking!
3 points per field goal 0-39 yards, 4 points from 40-49 yards, 5 points from 50-59 yards, 6 points 60+
1 point per XP, -1 point per FG or XP miss
Most leagues are like this or pretty damn close, nothing special here.

Defensive Scoring:

My defensive scoring system is still in the process of being tinkered with. This is what it was last year, though it's due to undergo reevaluation by my league's competition committee:

2 points per turnover/blocked kick
1 point per sack
6 points per defensive/special teams TD
2 points per safety
10 points for giving up 0 points
6 points for giving up 1-6 points
4 points for giving up 7-13 points
2 points for giving up 14-20 points
0 points for giving up 21-27 points
-2 points for giving up 28-34 points
-4 points for giving up 35-41 points
-6 points for giving up 42-55 points
-10 points for giving up 55+ points

Scoring Breakdown (2005):

Players in the Top 20:
QBs: 7
RBs: 6
WRs: 7

Average score of starters (and percentage of highest scoring position):
QBs (top 12): 248.75 (100%)
RBs (top 24): 227.375 (92%)
WRs (top 24): 237.209 (95%) / (top 36): 214.778 (86%)

Here we see the balance between the three main positions. Quarterbacks are the highest scoring of the three, but the average running back scores 92% as much as the average QB, and the average starting WRs (assuming 2 starters) score 95% as much. Even if we extend the starting lineups to 3 starting WRs per team, the average starting WR only dips to 86% of that of starting QBs.

Here's how the scoring breakdowns looked under the last GWJ league scoring system (which was 1/50 passing, 1/20 rushing and receiving, 1/3 receptions up to 9, -1 for offensive turnovers) - note, I plugged the scoring system into my league software, so the scores may be slightly different from the actual totals we had at FOX due to rounding differences, etc.

Players in the Top 20:
QBs: 7
RBs: 7
WRs: 3
PKs: 2
DFs: 1

Average score of starters:
QBs (top 12): 151.583 (100%)
RBs (top 24): 128.417 (85%)
WRs (top 24): 116.083 (77%) / (top 36): 100.117 (66%)

Here we see the disparity between the different positions. Quarterbacks heavily outbalance other positions - even the lowest scoring starting QB - Brunell - scored above the starting RB average.

Should Kerry Collins (138 points) be worth more than all but the top 7 running backs and wide receivers? Chad Johnson only managed to outscore Kerry Collins by 2 points. That's a flawed scoring system if you ask me.

I'm not even prepared to go into the fact that two kickers made the top 20. Jay Feely and Neil Rackers were more valuable than Marvin Harrison, Torry Holt, Matt Hasselbeck, Clinton Portis, etc?

This is what I'm talking about with balance. Nothing in the old GWJ scoring system looks "off" - it's all pretty straightforward and the yardage scoring is fairly common. But when we hold it under a microscope, we see how the totals just don't come out like they should.

Conclusion:
As you see, nothing in my scoring system is radical - it's very close to what you'll see suggested in many fantasy football magazines. I think very few fantasy owners realize just how much a scoring system can throw player values all over the place. The default scoring systems at some popular fantasy sites are pretty bad if you actually crunch the numbers and see how they break down.

A good scoring balance helps not only make things more interesting by not overvaluing certain positions, but it actually makes things simpler to understand - it's easier to know if 15 points is a "good" score from one of your top skill position players if the skill positions don't have a 20% variance between them. Plus, a casual fan doesn't have to wonder why Aaron Brooks is outscoring their top receiver - after all, doesn't Aaron Brooks "suck?".

So, mull all that over. I can tell you one thing - anyone that has gone to this scoring system has never, ever wanted to go back to anything else afterwards.

WII FRIEND CODE: 6936 4764 8384 6058

Gaming / PC Tech Blog: www.blastprocessing.net
Xbox Live: Legion SB / PSN: Legion_SB / Steam: legion028 / Twitter: legion

CEO
Certis's picture

Looks fine to me!

Certis beat me to it. - Elysium

Head Coach
Donator
*Legion*'s picture
Location: Scouting 1st round offensive tackles

Certis wrote:
Looks fine to me!

*Final Fantasy victory music plays*

Oh, and for people signing up, make sure you're not clicking the big yellow buttons for the Yahoo Plus! leagues, but rather the less flashy text links in the box beneath that. It took me a minute to realize what I was doing wrong.

WII FRIEND CODE: 6936 4764 8384 6058

Gaming / PC Tech Blog: www.blastprocessing.net
Xbox Live: Legion SB / PSN: Legion_SB / Steam: legion028 / Twitter: legion

Marks The Spot
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Elliottx's picture
Location: Vancouver, WA, USA, Earth, Milky Way, Universe B

Elliottx Entenmanns all signed up and ready to go.

Now I just need to read Legion's scoring post, it's going to be a long night.

XBL: elliottxW
WoW: Jozak - 80 Death Knight

0 to Zen in under 6 seconds
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karmajay's picture
Location: St. Pete, Florida

I'm going to severely disagree with the DEEP BENCH setup. This will effectively KILL any type of waiver wire action we could have which IMO is a big part of the game. Alsoit will force more trading at injury times which would leave the person with injured people at a huge disadvantage. Instead of maybe picking up a guy in the waiver, they will have to trade a good player for a repalcement instead. In summary, I'd like to stay with the default Yahoo roster size.

Disagree with the -1 pt for missed kicks.

Negative points for defensive might be a bit high, I would go -1 to -5 points if we have to use that.

Never tried the point for reception or 4 pts for touchdown but worth a try.

Other stuff all good.

I don't think I've ever said this sentence before, but man would I love to hump that butterfly.-- KrazyTaco
One phone call and you're melting like butter over my kettle pop. -- Edwin to Mex
2005 GWJFFL2 Champion

CEO
Elysium's picture

League ID added.

"I think Elysium has the right of it" - Certis

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Minase's picture
Location: Seattle, WA

Signed up... the pre-draft rankings leave much to be desired, so I'll be working on that for awhile. Hopefully I can convince the wife that we can leave early Saturday morning to see her parents that weekend instead of Friday night so I can make the draft.

I never minded piracy. Anyone who minds about piracy is full of sh*t. Anyone who pirates your game wasn't going to buy it anyway! -Warren Spector

Head Coach
Donator
*Legion*'s picture
Location: Scouting 1st round offensive tackles

karmajay wrote:
I'm going to severely disagree with the DEEP BENCH setup. This will effectively KILL any type of waiver wire action we could have which IMO is a big part of the game.

I can tell you for a fact that there is PLENTY of waiver wire action in 12 team leagues with deep benches. Most owners in my league last year were making free agent moves on a weekly basis.

In a 10 team league like this one, there's even more talent left over, so even more moves being made.

Quote:
Alsoit will force more trading at injury times which would leave the person with injured people at a huge disadvantage.

I can't contradict you hard enough on this. It's a MASSIVE help for people who suffer injuries. It allows you to:
a) Wisely draft more backups to your starters, and
b) Draft backups to other, injury-prone starters, and
c) Draft young players that might not get significant time until midseason, but could produce well

It's the best buffer against having your season ruined by injuries that you could possibly ask for.

What REALLY ruins people with injuries is when their star gets hurt and SOMEONE ELSE is able to snag the backup from free agency.

My GWJ team last year was ravaged with injuries, and I muttered to myself all season about the thinner benches. With deeper benches, I would have had more jars on the shelf to protect myself with.

Quote:
Negative points for defensive might be a bit high, I would go -1 to -5 points if we have to use that.

It's usually not an issue. Keep in mind that nobody even has the worst 8 defenses on their rosters, and the next worst 12 are starting very rarely. Defenses that actually get started rarely dip into negative points, and EXTREMELY rarely dip below -2.

Quote:
Disagree with the -1 pt for missed kicks.

Why? Kickers should be judged on more than just how many times their offense got them into field goal range. That's a major part of kickers' value even with negative points. More accurate kickers are far more valuable to their teams, and they ought to be more valuable to fantasy owners as well (again, it goes back to the whole "trying to make players as close to their "real" value as possible" thing)

WII FRIEND CODE: 6936 4764 8384 6058

Gaming / PC Tech Blog: www.blastprocessing.net
Xbox Live: Legion SB / PSN: Legion_SB / Steam: legion028 / Twitter: legion

Khaaaaaaaan!
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Gaald's picture
Location: Just this side of crazy

Everything looks good to me except for maybe the some of the defensive scoring, specifically how far into the minus a defensive unit can pick up, and 2pts per turn over seems a little high.

"Can I have a job? I donut have much experiences, butt I always use an spellchecker spellchecker on my articles." - Sway

Using Prayer To Microevolve Latent Antibiotic Resistance In Bacteria since 2005!

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Head Coach
Donator
*Legion*'s picture
Location: Scouting 1st round offensive tackles

Gaald wrote:
Everything looks good to me except for maybe the some of the defensive scoring, specifically how far into the minus a defensive unit can pick up, and 2pts per turn over seems a little high.

Keep in mind that this scoring system has higher total points than the old GWJ scoring system. -2 points for turnovers in this system is very close to the same percentage of points taken away as -1 points was in the old GWJ system (10 INTs takes away approx. 6-7% of the average QB's points in both systems). Because the absolute number of points is different, the relative difference is virtually equal.

You have to look and see what players are averaging in an entire scoring system. QBs are already the highest scoring position, in terms of average starter's score, but it's close. If turnovers are reduced to -1 point, that boosts QBs far more than any other position, and we start to lose balance.

The defensive scoring, however, is definitely up in the air. But like I said in a post above, very few defenses that people actually PLAY ever get near those high point penalties. It could be argued that defenses deserve more points (rather than just reduced penalties), and I may very well be on board with that. I definitely want to hear opinions on that.

WII FRIEND CODE: 6936 4764 8384 6058

Gaming / PC Tech Blog: www.blastprocessing.net
Xbox Live: Legion SB / PSN: Legion_SB / Steam: legion028 / Twitter: legion

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Minase's picture
Location: Seattle, WA

Quote:
The defensive scoring, however, is definitely up in the air. But like I said in a post above, very few defenses that people actually PLAY ever get near those high point penalties. It could be argued that defenses deserve more points (rather than just reduced penalties), and I may very well be on board with that. I definitely want to hear opinions on that.
I don't know... I can think of maybe 10 defenses that I'd play week in and week out, the rest are situational. If we had more than 10 teams I'd be worried, but everyone should be able to pick up a solid DST and a situational DST (whoever is playing SF or Houston that week ) and not lose points. If your options are really bad, I guess you could also just not play one.

EDIT: If possible, factoring in whether the team won or lost would be good too... if it's a 35-0 blowout in the first half, it would suck to not get any points because the second string D came in and gave up 3 TDs.

I never minded piracy. Anyone who minds about piracy is full of sh*t. Anyone who pirates your game wasn't going to buy it anyway! -Warren Spector

Head Coach
Donator
*Legion*'s picture
Location: Scouting 1st round offensive tackles

Minase wrote:
I don't know... I can think of maybe 10 defenses that I'd play week in and week out, the rest are situational. If we had more than 10 teams I'd be worried, but everyone should be able to pick up a solid DST and a situational DST (whoever is playing SF or Houston that week ) and not lose points.

Yeah, nobody in my 12 team league last year had their starting defense finish with negative points, except one guy who abandoned his team by week 6.

We did have a defense finish as the highest scoring "player" of the week twice, so they do get up there sometimes.

Quote:
EDIT: If possible, factoring in whether the team won or lost would be good too... if it's a 35-0 blowout in the first half, it would suck to not get any points because the second string D came in and gave up 3 TDs.

I totally see what you're saying, but I would think to avoid things like that for the sake of simplicity - plus I don't think Yahoo or most other sites even support that. I'd rather tinker with the point values if there's objection to defenses being too low/high. I'm OK with reducing the negative point penalties if people REALLY care about that, because it will make almost zero effective difference - nobody's starting D should get up there anyway. If it makes anyone feel better though, let's do it.

WII FRIEND CODE: 6936 4764 8384 6058

Gaming / PC Tech Blog: www.blastprocessing.net
Xbox Live: Legion SB / PSN: Legion_SB / Steam: legion028 / Twitter: legion

Executive
Nomad's picture
Location: At the far end of town, where the Grickle-grass grows

Nomads signed up.

A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him, than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word "darkness" on the wall of his cell.
-CS Lewis

Tea Bird
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Redhwk's picture
Location: Portland, OR

Yahoo FFB Website wrote:
There was a problem

* There was a temporary problem with the server. Please try again shortly. (Error #115)
* The password is incorrect. (Error #109)
* The league is not in pre-draft mode. (Error #209)


I'll try again tomorrow.

Now with Xbox Live: Redhwk GWJ

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Minase's picture
Location: Seattle, WA

As *Legion* said, make sure that you're trying to join the right type of league. I got the same thing until I figured it out.

I never minded piracy. Anyone who minds about piracy is full of sh*t. Anyone who pirates your game wasn't going to buy it anyway! -Warren Spector

Maximus Nofunicus
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Grumpicus's picture
Location: Piedra Redonda, Tejas

Given that your numbers add up to "19-22" players, I assume you're proposing a 20-player team?

How about flex (WR/RB and/or WR/TE) positions?

Tea Bird
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Redhwk's picture
Location: Portland, OR

Minase wrote:
As *Legion* said, make sure that you're trying to join the right type of league. I got the same thing until I figured it out.

Thanks, went back and found the right link. Redhwk's (Playoff) Tankers are signed up.

Now with Xbox Live: Redhwk GWJ

There can be only one
Highlander's picture
Location: The Highlands

The Charlie Browns are suited up and ready to go.

0 to Zen in under 6 seconds
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karmajay's picture
Location: St. Pete, Florida

Minase, if you arent available for the live draft, the computer will pick for you using your prerankings.

I don't think I've ever said this sentence before, but man would I love to hump that butterfly.-- KrazyTaco
One phone call and you're melting like butter over my kettle pop. -- Edwin to Mex
2005 GWJFFL2 Champion

Puttin' on the foil, Coach!
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Mixolyde's picture
Location: Usually an ice rink in Newark, DE

Looked like there were still two spots open in Ultra, so I hopped in. If it's not cool I don't mind being booted.

Mix's Maddog Mauraders take the field!

Sidenote: When is Forward Progress Radio returning to the airwaves Legion?

Steam Id
Twitter
Mixol on XBL, couldn't recover my old account, sorry!

CEO
Certis's picture

Highlander wrote:
The Charlie Browns are suited up and ready to go.

Quote:
When you sign up, your team name must include your forum name!

Quote:
ooked like there were still two spots open in Ultra, so I hopped in. If it's not cool I don't mind being booted.

Sorry Mix, the names are listed in the main post for a reason. You missed the sign-up!

Certis beat me to it. - Elysium

Marks The Spot
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Elliottx's picture
Location: Vancouver, WA, USA, Earth, Milky Way, Universe B

I actually really like Legion's rule setup, it seems to cover all the gripes that I had last year with Yahoo's default rule set. Having never played with a deep bench setup, I can't really speak for or against it but would like to give it a try.

My only request is that if we're going to do Legion's rules, he needs to resume his Seahawk biased podcast. Come on, I vote for it every month on Podcast alley!

XBL: elliottxW
WoW: Jozak - 80 Death Knight

Puttin' on the foil, Coach!
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Mixolyde's picture
Location: Usually an ice rink in Newark, DE

Certis wrote:
Quote:
ooked like there were still two spots open in Ultra, so I hopped in. If it's not cool I don't mind being booted.

Sorry Mix, the names are listed in the main post for a reason. You missed the sign-up!

NP, my fault for being late to the game. Enjoy the season! I'll be interested to hear how people like Legion's setup. How do you think the rule changes will affect draft order? Still going to be 2 rounds of RBs before QBs and WRs?

Steam Id
Twitter
Mixol on XBL, couldn't recover my old account, sorry!

CEO
Certis's picture

Nomad you also missed the sign-up, sorry.

Oldmanscene You join the Ultra league that Elysium is commish on, not mine

Certis beat me to it. - Elysium

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karmajay's picture
Location: St. Pete, Florida

Quote:
Still going to be 2 rounds of RBs before QBs and WRs?

Yes!

I don't think I've ever said this sentence before, but man would I love to hump that butterfly.-- KrazyTaco
One phone call and you're melting like butter over my kettle pop. -- Edwin to Mex
2005 GWJFFL2 Champion

What Is Your Quest?
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oldmanscene24's picture
Location: Watauga, TX

Certis wrote:
Oldmanscene You join the Ultra league that Elysium is commish on, not mine

Fixed. Sorry about the confusion. I had a moment of idiocy or something. Certis, did you remove me from your league or do I need to do it?

Xbox LIVE: oldman GWJ

"I might have gotten away with it if it wasn't for a damningly tenacious clinger." - Crouton on a childhood excrement escapade
2007 GWJFFL2 Champion
2008 GWJFFL Champion

CEO
Certis's picture

I took care of it

Certis beat me to it. - Elysium

What Is Your Quest?
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oldmanscene24's picture
Location: Watauga, TX

Cool, thanks!

Xbox LIVE: oldman GWJ

"I might have gotten away with it if it wasn't for a damningly tenacious clinger." - Crouton on a childhood excrement escapade
2007 GWJFFL2 Champion
2008 GWJFFL Champion

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Minase's picture
Location: Seattle, WA

Quote:
Minase, if you arent available for the live draft, the computer will pick for you using your prerankings.
I know, that's what I'm afraid of. Weird things happen in a live fantasy draft. I've seen all the good DSTs drop relatively early because one person took the strongest one and everyone else followed suit, or vice/versa where the DSTs went late. That means that the autodrafters get screwed on either end. For the early rounds prerankings are OK, but I like to micromanage and analyze every round, not just 1-3, and yahoo's system isn't complex enough for my tastes.

Time to try the 'honey, I think I'll have to work late that night' routine.

I never minded piracy. Anyone who minds about piracy is full of sh*t. Anyone who pirates your game wasn't going to buy it anyway! -Warren Spector

All that and a
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baggachipz's picture
Location: do() || !do(); $try=NULL;

Man, I won't be around for the draft... unless they have that "internet" think in the Virgin Islands. And I can remember to be there for it, and can do math with time zones. So, in other words, you all will be missing out on my legendary drafting capabilities. Your prayers have been answered.

I generated a virtual world in the toilet bowl this morning.
-- Podunk on the PS3's mystical, magical abilities